On 08/09/2020 at 00:06, Skuit said:

In Europe we drink stout closer to room temperature. Get into it now Wise. 

I am with wise.

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:12, Skuit said:

Just checked and Oscar, ANB and Hunt are the 10th to 12th most experienced current players in Demon colours. Hard to get the head around. 

And none of them would  make another club list.

Edited September 8, 20204 yr by old dee

  On 07/09/2020 at 23:59, Skuit said:

We can look forward to 2021 and beyond. We will catch alight again - mark my words or put it in the book or whatever people say. 2018 was a false or very narrow window and 2020 has been an unprecedented [censored]-fest. We have a very good but still maturing core. Our seniors are all but finished though.

That core will become our new senior leadership soon and we have some very talented youngsters. No one likes excuses (a nod to @Engorged Onion for asking what is the difference between excuses and reasons?) - but we've been up against it this season. Compare the Demons' fixture to the Bulldogs or Richmond for example. I really don't know how anyone can discount it.

(Note here how outside of the Pickett/Spargo blip we've kept a very tidy house this year). 

If we had been recently successful then most people would agree, as well as understanding the toll of injuries in 2019 - but we carry the baggage of failure. Spouting anywhere anytime rhetoric is great as a mentality or catchphrase but it isn't the reality (West Coast won a recent flag but was consistently poor on the road, while Richmond has struggled away).

We've designed one of the most even sporting competitions in the world - and as such any small advantage is magnified (see Geelong getting their senior players to agree to pay-cuts for example, or father-sons and priority picks). We have some small advantages coming but we still suffer the legacy of the Neeld & tanking era where our list balance was thrown into disarray. 

Our window opens again next year but probably won't reach it's peak until 2022/23. It's [censored] but it's the reality. I don't care about Goodwin anymore (I'm still a supporter but if he has lost the vast majority of the membership then that's a cause for concern) - but we need to stay the course in some respects. A total rebuild now would be hugely detrimental. 

Just reflect on Jones, TMac, Jetta, and Melksham for instance - our most senior players - and their contribution this season, and compare it to Geelong maybe. Bar Jones, all of Selwood, Ablett, Dangerfield, Hawkins, Taylor, Tuohy and Dahlhaus have played more games than anyone on our list. Is it any wonder that mature players have handled this season better than others? 

I can't like this post enough, Skuit.

  On 07/09/2020 at 23:59, Skuit said:

We can look forward to 2021 and beyond. We will catch alight again - mark my words or put it in the book or whatever people say. 2018 was a false or very narrow window and 2020 has been an unprecedented [censored]-fest. We have a very good but still maturing core. Our seniors are all but finished though.

That core will become our new senior leadership soon and we have some very talented youngsters. No one likes excuses (a nod to @Engorged Onion for asking what is the difference between excuses and reasons?) - but we've been up against it this season. Compare the Demons' fixture to the Bulldogs or Richmond for example. I really don't know how anyone can discount it.

(Note here how outside of the Pickett/Spargo blip we've kept a very tidy house this year). 

If we had been recently successful then most people would agree, as well as understanding the toll of injuries in 2019 - but we carry the baggage of failure. Spouting anywhere anytime rhetoric is great as a mentality or catchphrase but it isn't the reality (West Coast won a recent flag but was consistently poor on the road, while Richmond has struggled away).

We've designed one of the most even sporting competitions in the world - and as such any small advantage is magnified (see Geelong getting their senior players to agree to pay-cuts for example, or father-sons and priority picks). We have some small advantages coming but we still suffer the legacy of the Neeld & tanking era where our list balance was thrown into disarray. 

Our window opens again next year but probably won't reach it's peak until 2022/23. It's [censored] but it's the reality. I don't care about Goodwin anymore (I'm still a supporter but if he has lost the vast majority of the membership then that's a cause for concern) - but we need to stay the course in some respects. A total rebuild now would be hugely detrimental. 

Just reflect on Jones, TMac, Jetta, and Melksham for instance - our most senior players - and their contribution this season, and compare it to Geelong maybe. Bar Jones, all of Selwood, Ablett, Dangerfield, Hawkins, Taylor, Tuohy and Dahlhaus have played more games than anyone on our list. Is it any wonder that mature players have handled this season better than others? 

A lot of what you say makes sense Skuit however the MFC always has excuses I have heard them all over the last 55 years. The simple fact is the list is average. Tmac, Jetta and Melksham are not even close to The quality of your Geelong nominees at any any age. They started with way more talent from day one. It’s the list for god sake it ain’t that good. Two thirds of them can deliver the ball accurately by foot. The player who is among our best 3-4 players with big possession numbers is a terrible kick. 

A new coach hopefully. Watch Jackson, Rivers and Pickett's (although worrying signs recently) development. see who we select in the draft. 

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:30, old dee said:

A lot of what you say makes sense Skuit however the MFC always has excuses I have heard them all over the last 55 years. The simple fact is the list is average. Tmac, Jetta and Melksham are not even close to The quality of your Geelong nominees at any any age. They started with way more talent from day one. It’s the list for god sake it ain’t that good. Two thirds of them can deliver the ball accurately by foot. The player who is among our best 3-4 players with big possession numbers is a terrible kick. 

One of Demonland's biggest problems is when someone offers some reasons for why our performance might be poor, any of them which are not "the players suck" or "the coach sucks" are dismissed as "excuses".

What @Skuit has spoken about in his post are reasons why our performances might have been so poor the last couple of weeks and throughout 2020.

They do not necessarily, on their own, explain the extent to which we were poor, but they are reasons to consider all the same.

Well we still have 2 more games to look forward to. I am excited to see if tackling lightly with one arm starts to work next week...they are getting better at applying the single arm each week so we might be near peaking.

Also will be interesting to see if allowing the oppo to take the ball from full back to full forward without getting close to an opponent or applying any pressure starts to pay off...it seems a great approach so surely it will start to bear some fruit soon.

  On 07/09/2020 at 22:19, Waltham33 said:

its not another rebuilt - the top 6 players are fine - we need to supplement the list.  Its players 7-38 that don't do enough.  Savvy drafting and recruiting is what we need.  

So replacing 32 players is not a rebuild.

Awesome.

?

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:30, old dee said:

A lot of what you say makes sense Skuit however the MFC always has excuses I have heard them all over the last 55 years. The simple fact is the list is average. Tmac, Jetta and Melksham are not even close to The quality of your Geelong nominees at any any age. They started with way more talent from day one. It’s the list for god sake it ain’t that good. Two thirds of them can deliver the ball accurately by foot. The player who is among our best 3-4 players with big possession numbers is a terrible kick. 

I have huge respect for our longer-suffering members Old Dee and have expressed that numerous times in the past - would never deny or devalue that grief. But it's the members who are the only remote glue in a ship of Theseus sense. I don't think we can be judged on anything more than the past decade or so - almost no one who was a part of the club in 2008 is still present today. We are still though trying to overcome recent legacy issues and I both agree with the bolded and disagree with the larger statement. Those players are definitely nowhere near the quality of Geelong's seniors, but our list is mostly okay. Imagine Trac, Clarry, Brayshaw. Langdon and Gawn with 200-plus games under their belts. We're still a fraction shy of true maturity. Petracca's season this year is a good example. 

  On 07/09/2020 at 23:59, Skuit said:

We can look forward to 2021 and beyond. We will catch alight again - mark my words or put it in the book or whatever people say. 2018 was a false or very narrow window and 2020 has been an unprecedented [censored]-fest. We have a very good but still maturing core. Our seniors are all but finished though.

That core will become our new senior leadership soon and we have some very talented youngsters. No one likes excuses (a nod to @Engorged Onion for asking what is the difference between excuses and reasons?) - but we've been up against it this season. Compare the Demons' fixture to the Bulldogs or Richmond for example. I really don't know how anyone can discount it.

(Note here how outside of the Pickett/Spargo blip we've kept a very tidy house this year). 

If we had been recently successful then most people would agree, as well as understanding the toll of injuries in 2019 - but we carry the baggage of failure. Spouting anywhere anytime rhetoric is great as a mentality or catchphrase but it isn't the reality (West Coast won a recent flag but was consistently poor on the road, while Richmond has struggled away).

We've designed one of the most even sporting competitions in the world - and as such any small advantage is magnified (see Geelong getting their senior players to agree to pay-cuts for example, or father-sons and priority picks). We have some small advantages coming but we still suffer the legacy of the Neeld & tanking era where our list balance was thrown into disarray. 

Our window opens again next year but probably won't reach it's peak until 2022/23. It's [censored] but it's the reality. I don't care about Goodwin anymore (I'm still a supporter but if he has lost the vast majority of the membership then that's a cause for concern) - but we need to stay the course in some respects. A total rebuild now would be hugely detrimental. 

Just reflect on Jones, TMac, Jetta, and Melksham for instance - our most senior players - and their contribution this season, and compare it to Geelong maybe. Bar Jones, all of Selwood, Ablett, Dangerfield, Hawkins, Taylor, Tuohy and Dahlhaus have played more games than anyone on our list. Is it any wonder that mature players have handled this season better than others? 

Thanks Skuit. A therapeutic read. I agree we got given a shocking draw , capped off with 2 cairns games in 4 days. I mean WTAF. This year the time between games and the amount of travel has been all important. I also get it re the loss of our experienced players  Jetta, Tmac and Jones are all done now. Whats concerned me most though is the WAY we actually play ie the game style. Seems like most other sides have shot past us this year. Im ok with Goodwin staying as I feel like the players love and respond to him, but the brains trust of how to play the game needs an overhaul. 

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:48, titan_uranus said:

One of Demonland's biggest problems is when someone offers some reasons for why our performance might be poor, any of them which are not "the players suck" or "the coach sucks" are dismissed as "excuses".

What @Skuit has spoken about in his post are reasons why our performances might have been so poor the last couple of weeks and throughout 2020.

They do not necessarily, on their own, explain the extent to which we were poor, but they are reasons to consider all the same.

I don’t disagree with that TU , the simple fact is we do not have enough talent to rise above being a mid level team. How can a team with so many poor kickers hope to make a GF. Poor kicking results in turn overs and quiet often score by the other team. If we continually fail as we do then surely it has to be either the players and or the FD. It Can’t  always be bad luck.

What do we have to look forward to?

4 things.

1.The delisting of so many players that have wasted our time and money.

2.Even better: the sods that chose them.

3.The return of a few faithful comitted players that hopefully will be surrounded by new ones that help them out.

4. Footy played with a modicum of effort and passion.

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:53, Skuit said:

I have huge respect for our longer-suffering members Old Dee and have expressed that numerous times in the past - would never deny or devalue that grief. But it's the members who are the only remote glue in a ship of Theseus sense. I don't think we can be judged on anything more than the past decade or so - almost no one who was a part of the club in 2008 is still present today. We are still though trying to overcome recent legacy issues and I both agree with the bolded and disagree with the larger statement. Those players are definitely nowhere near the quality of Geelong's seniors, but our list is mostly okay. Imagine Trac, Clarry, Brayshaw. Langdon and Gawn with 200-plus games under their belts. We're still a fraction shy of true maturity. Petracca's season this year is a good example. 

Correct Skuit but they are surround by way less talented group. No amount of maturity is going to improve that groups skill level. They cannot hit targets by foot. 

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:58, old dee said:

Correct Skuit but they are surround by way less talented group. No amount of maturity is going to improve that groups skill level. They cannot hit targets by foot. 

I agree that the current skill level is deplorable. But I don't think that is as an inherent thing as it seems. Watch us or any other team play with confidence and run and then suddenly everyone is a sublime kick, or it just doesn't matter so much. I acknowledge there is a gap though and that we need to focus on bringing in better foot-skills (was on the Hayden Young bandwagon last year for that reason). Our midfield (and core) is definitely a concern as to skills, but I would forward Danger and Martin as just a couple examples of not particularly clean players who can still have a huge impact. 

  On 07/09/2020 at 12:39, adonski said:

2x second rounders

Love to get another Spargo and Sparrow in to rocket us up the ladder ?

It's looking bleak in the short term.

  On 08/09/2020 at 01:15, Lord Travis said:

Love to get another Spargo and Sparrow in to rocket us up the ladder ?

It's looking bleak in the short term.

Yes another Spargo would help. 

One Spargo standing on top of another Spargo might be a decent player. 

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:12, Skuit said:

Just checked and Oscar, ANB and Hunt are the 10th to 12th most experienced current players in Demon colours. Hard to get the head around. 

I cant think for myself today - what are you inferring?

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:54, Wells 11 said:

Thanks Skuit. A therapeutic read. I agree we got given a shocking draw , capped off with 2 cairns games in 4 days. I mean WTAF. This year the time between games and the amount of travel has been all important. 

I almost wish now we ended up playing in Tasmania. Even then, we've probably achieved some single-season air-miles/grounds-played record that will possibly never be broken. And not playing in Tassie in the end was just another of our specific disruptions to our season. With the multiple football frenzies it's easy to overlook that every other team has had a recent bye and refresher besides us and Essendon. Look how the Bombers are currently travelling. In an ordinary season we'd all look at a Cairns fixture or five-day break with trepidation.  

  On 08/09/2020 at 02:24, Skuit said:

I almost wish now we ended up playing in Tasmania. Even then, we've probably achieved some single-season air-miles/grounds-played record that will possibly never be broken. And not playing in Tassie in the end was just another of our specific disruptions to our season. With the multiple football frenzies it's easy to overlook that every other team has had a recent bye and refresher besides us and Essendon. Look how the Bombers are currently travelling. In an ordinary season we'd all look at a Cairns fixture or five-day break with trepidation.  

Bingo, and how vaunted essendon were early in the season. And then it gets dresssed up in the media by Lloyd, that he doesnt know what they stand for.

They and Melbourne aren't [censored] standing for anything* because they're [censored] knackered.

 

*hilariousness of when you lose matches, it means you don't stand for anything.

 

@Skuit apologies for a capital a in And

Edited September 8, 20204 yr by Engorged Onion

  On 08/09/2020 at 00:53, Skuit said:

I have huge respect for our longer-suffering members Old Dee and have expressed that numerous times in the past - would never deny or devalue that grief. But it's the members who are the only remote glue in a ship of Theseus sense. I don't think we can be judged on anything more than the past decade or so - almost no one who was a part of the club in 2008 is still present today. We are still though trying to overcome recent legacy issues and I both agree with the bolded and disagree with the larger statement. Those players are definitely nowhere near the quality of Geelong's seniors, but our list is mostly okay. Imagine Trac, Clarry, Brayshaw. Langdon and Gawn with 200-plus games under their belts. We're still a fraction shy of true maturity. Petracca's season this year is a good example. 

Not sure on this one Skuit. 

Trac yes, is learning

Clarry, needs to learn how to learn.

Brayshaw, Do not see experience helping him , just will get slower.

Langdon, lots to like.

Max, is not learning and is mature enough without needing more games to mature.

Looking forward to the same old Melbourne are soft, not hungry, mediocre and have [censored] their finals chances up the wall trope from my non-MFC supporting mates.

Not. 

  On 08/09/2020 at 02:20, Engorged Onion said:

I cant think for myself today - what are you inferring?

I can't be bothered doing the leg-work across the entire league but would presume that the top-dozen most-capped players for any given team wouldn't be fringe players such as Omac and Hunt. Geelong is a bit easy but I'll run a Collingwood, Bulldogs and GWS comparison - the three teams currently above us on the ladder (please note, I'm not a close football follower anymore so don't know exactly if some of these players may be currently out of favour or in form or not. Also probable name spelling mistakes).  

Bulldogs: most capped current players (in order) - Wood, Macrae, Wallis, Liberatore, Bontempelli, Johannisen, Hunter (all who have played more games than our captain). 

Collingwood: Pendles, Sidebottom, Reid, Grundy, Adams (all who have played more or close to the same number of games as our captain and then of course our midfield and core players). 

GWS: Cameron, Ward, Davis, Greene, Shaw, Coniglio, Whitfield, Haynes, Kennedy, Kelly, Williams (all who have played bar Kelly more or the same number of games as our captain and midfield). 

I think my original thesis fails. But a simple analysis shows how inexperienced our core is compared to the teams around us.  

Edited September 8, 20204 yr by Skuit

  On 07/09/2020 at 12:42, London Demon said:

Rebuild IV.

More like Rebuild CLXXXV

  On 07/09/2020 at 12:40, gs77 said:

Smaller list sizes so we can enjoy some delistings. The tail of our list is sub-VFL standard. 

Spot on. Our top 6 or so are as good as any in the comp but our bottom 6-10 are just horrible and bring us down every time. I dare to say some of them would not get a game for North at present. That's how bad they are.