POSTGAME: Rd 11 vs North Melbourne

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

27 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Same umpires

I wonder if they took offence at Goodwin's comments about not enough protection for Max from them and they 'decided' to show whose boss!

It may be a long bow but one has to wonder.  The umpiring seemed very one sided.  Not just the soft frees but all the ones they didn't pay to us.

[Nasher 33,617]

5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

It may be a long bow but one has to wonder.  The umpiring seemed very one sided.  Not just the soft frees but all the ones they didn't pay to us.

Occam’s Razor says they’re just crap umpires. There were a few where ridiculous calls went our way too, the non-free against Fritsch (I think) in the goal square from the Petracca goal is one example.

[jnrmac 20,186]

Hitouts 29 to 7 against

Just saying

[jnrmac 20,186]

29 minutes ago, Melb-A-Toast said:

Just from observation, without supporting data, Spargo was good throughout the game. Defensive forward pressure very good. Was delivering inside 50s and part of scoring chains. 

Spargo was excellent. His gut running has gone to a new level

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Spargo was excellent. His gut running has gone to a new level

Interesting.   He just might make it.  Was very good last night.

He will never be fast like most players his size but he is a very good decision maker especially going inside 50, and if his tank is now AFL level for a midfielder it bodes well.

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Pickett2Jackson

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull and a bit more of an outside mid.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession?) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw? 

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there.  And in my mind it is Oliver over Viney. 

Its a real dilemma and at the end of the day it comes down to how we want our centre stoppages/clearances and spread to work.  We need to do something to get more value from Max's dominance.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

10 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

Interesting.   He just might make it.  Was very good last night.

He will never be fast like most players his size but he is a very good decision maker especially going inside 50, and if his tank is now AFL level for a midfielder it bodes well.

Spargo had a good game.  Probably gets another go this weekend v Pies. He’s a smart footballer and running was good.  Kicking for me remains questionable but we’ll see.  His play to go at the footy v Daw in the last quarter was good. He got crunched then got up and went again. Definitely one for goody to share. 
I’m still doubtful on Spargo and I’d expect him to deliver on a weekly basis ... that’s the standard now.  

[Melb-A-Toast 257]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull but has a bit more class and finesse to his game.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw?

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there. 

I have noticed in the last few games Oliver has waited after the the first tap on a ball up, going in hard and at pace for the second contest. There are lots of 2nd and 3rd contests after a ball up. This approach by Oliver has enabled him to use his pace to leave the contest and get a good possession opportunity.

[Nasher 33,617]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull but has a bit more class and finesse to his game.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw?

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there. 

I think the improvement in spread has come from Oliver participating in it more as much as Brayshaw’s return to form. That’s an aspect to Oliver’s game that has noticeably changed in the last few weeks. I think you’re underselling Viney’s capacity in that regard too, he’s definitely capable of breaking away from a contest when required.

To me I think the Petracca-Oliver-Viney midfield is stronger than Petracca-Oliver-Brayshaw, but the conundrum is that Brayshaw can’t play anywhere else. Can Viney? If Viney could play as a half forward in the role Jones is currently playing, even though it takes our midfield down a peg, the team may still be better off.

[TRIGON 4,790]

Rather than the forward flank, I'd prefer to see Viney resting in the forward pocket. It would suit him better as he does his best work in confined spaces.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

31 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Occam’s Razor says they’re just crap umpires. There were a few where ridiculous calls went our way too, the non-free against Fritsch (I think) in the goal square from the Petracca goal is one example.

The holding the ball to TMac which resulted in his goal another

[Redleg 41,432]

11 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

A special mention to Oliver who has been getting a lot of flack here for his disposal. Has really turned it around.

The big change I have noticed in Oliver, is that he is not getting rid of the ball the second he gets it, but taking players on, running, balancing and then disposing.
He is getting back to his best, which is sensational footy, from one of the best, contested ball players in the game.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

8 hours ago, Dame Gaga said:

Carlton players want clarification on the rule. With so many clubs and fans confused and upset, something needs to be done about this shocking state of affairs.

CFC players want clarification on the rule, the umpires want clarification on whether to ref to the rule book or to "the vibe", and the umpires department wants clarification on what sport it is.

 

7 hours ago, adonski said:

Umpiring was like last game. Absolutely cooked in the first half, then in the second half it all started going our way...? Do the umps check the free kick stats at half time & attempt to ‘adjust’ their calls in the second half to even the ledger? Serious question. 

Yes they do. They say they don't. How many times have you seen games, not just ours, where the free kick count is way out of whack at half time and has mysteriously evened up by full time.

 

33 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I wonder if they took offence at Goodwin's comments about not enough protection for Max from them and they 'decided' to show whose boss!

It may be a long bow but one has to wonder.  The umpiring seemed very one sided.  Not just the soft frees but all the ones they didn't pay to us.

It can happen. My memory is vague but I have read over the years -- "reminiscing" articles about retired players -- who would say that umpire such-and-such would never pay a 50-50 decision for him because of some abuse given earlier in his career.

Then we had recently -- was it Hawthorn? -- inviting umps to their training, obviously to get chummy with them. Our inept umpires department had no problem with this and couldn't see the obvious conflict of interest.

Now a story from another sport. Baseball. I don't know if they still do it, but a generation ago, the umps used to test new players. It's a peculiar sport where mouthing off at the the ump is seen a good thing, almost required,  to do. Needless to say, the umps don't like it. So new player comes in to bat, the ump calls an obvious ball as a strike. If the player loses his marbles, then (depending on the amount of abuse) he gets line-ball calls against him for the rest of the game, sometimes for the rest of his career. The players who shrug it off get the benefit of a reduced strike zone -- again, sometimes for their whole career. Take it with as many grains of salt as you feel comfortable with, but that's from an ex-umpire.

[leave it to deever 17,517]

Just now, Redleg said:

The big change I have noticed in Oliver, is that he is not getting rid of the ball the second he gets it, but taking players on, running, balancing and then disposing.
He is getting back to his best, which is sensational footy, from one of the best, contested ball players in the game.

Spot on. He seems much more confident and comfortable out there. Great to see him backing himself and his disposal was excellent especially that goal in the final.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Special mention to Rivers, I’m really liking the look of him, particularly his first game v Carlton and then again last night.

All 3 of last year’s draftees are showing lots of promise.

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

37 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I think the improvement in spread has come from Oliver participating in it more as much as Brayshaw’s return to form. That’s an aspect to Oliver’s game that has noticeably changed in the last few weeks. I think you’re underselling Viney’s capacity in that regard too, he’s definitely capable of breaking away from a contest when required.

To me I think the Petracca-Oliver-Viney midfield is stronger than Petracca-Oliver-Brayshaw, but the conundrum is that Brayshaw can’t play anywhere else. Can Viney? If Viney could play as a half forward in the role Jones is currently playing, even though it takes our midfield down a peg, the team may still be better off.

Sure Viney can break away from a contest but he is more prone to force a ball up or HTB than others. 

There is a consensus we have too many similar mids.  Viney, Petracca and Oliver are bulls and or see ball, get ball types.  Gus isn't.  imv he adds something the others don't.   As an outside mid type, his role is different to the other 3.

So what gives.  Taking the names out of it for a moment imv it comes down to midfield structure, roles and skills.  If we want 3 contested bull types competing for the ball it is Oliver, Viney, Petracca.

The first priority needs to be maximise the team's ability to win.  imv the team will be much better off with roles for 2 inside, contested bulls and 1 outside mid to spread.  The roles can mix a bit within games but their primary roles are clearly defined.  True, the midfield won't be as 'strong' from a contested bull perspective with a 2 and 1 structure but I think it will be better than a 3 and 0 structure.  If people accept that then either Gus stays in the middle or one of the 3 contested bulls are re-trained.  Do we have the time luxury to re-train one this season...

So the question is which contested bull comes out?   The reason people suggest Viney comes out is because Oliver and Petracca are better.  That is no slight on Viney.  Its just that Oliver and Petracca are exceptional.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[forever demons 2,224]

A good win but they will have to play a lot better to beat collingwood.Nth are a rabble

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Before making any calls on Brayshaw vs Viney, I'd like to see a few things:

1. Brayshaw's TOG and centre bounce attendance stats for last night compared to previous games (I don't know where to find these); and
2. whether Brayshaw can perform like that against a stronger midfield than North's.

[Dee Zephyr 19,268]

Pleasing to see Hibbo in some great form the last few weeks. Seems to have slowed his game down a bit and is making smart decisions with ball in hand. Thought he was really solid last night with some important rebounds. 

[Return to Glory 8,448]

46 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull and a bit more of an outside mid.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession?) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw? 

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there.  And in my mind it is Oliver over Viney. 

Its a real dilemma and at the end of the day it comes down to how we want our centre stoppages/clearances and spread to work.  We need to do something to get more value from Max's dominance.

LH, realistically i don't think that's up for debate. Oliver is an A grade mid . Viney isn't. For mine, it's where you rest Viney when Brayshaw is on the ball. And do you look to give Viney pure tagging roles for the opposition's best mid -fielder?

[Cards13 9,117]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull and a bit more of an outside mid.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession?) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw? 

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there.  And in my mind it is Oliver over Viney. 

Its a real dilemma and at the end of the day it comes down to how we want our centre stoppages/clearances and spread to work.  We need to do something to get more value from Max's dominance.

Do other teams also “leave” Viney and put the harder work into Oli and Trac knowing Viney's disposal is not great? 
Brayshaw is more damaging by hand but especially by foot, has a much longer leg so to speak. 
 

It’s an interesting debate, for mine I’d like to see them try more Gus in the guts and Viney play the VnB role to see how that works. With Viney in the middle when Gus etc need a rest. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Cards13

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

9 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

LH, realistically i don't think that's up for debate. Oliver is an A grade mid . Viney isn't. For mine, it's where you rest Viney when Brayshaw is on the ball. And do you look to give Viney pure tagging roles for the opposition's best mid -fielder?

Totally agree. 

But there seems to be considerable doubt as to whether Gus stays in the midfield as an 'outside', clearance mid vs keeping 3 contested bulls in the middle.

I was trying to frame the discussion around midfield structure and roles and the point was Brayshaw and Viney play different roles and Gus adds a different look to our midfield structure.  So may Brayshaw vs Viney isn't the right question. 

Whereas Viney and Oliver play similar roles, hence the rhetorical question of Viney vs Oliver.  Oliver, hands down every time..

Edited August 9, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[pitmaster 3,578]

7 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

Singing from the same hymn book. Here's a confession. I hate Wayne Schimmelbusch. Gun footballer, rate him far higher than the dual Brownlow Medalist on the opposite wing. May well be a champion bloke. However, in my memory, every time we had Norf by the bollocks, he would pop up and win the game for them. Goals on the siren god knows how many times. Each one a dagger to my young Demon heart.

 

Including one back in the '80s when we kicked the first five goals of the game and lost with a Schimma special sailing through from 50 metres as the siren went...and the umpires had screwed us royally.

Totally endorse your view.

[Nasher 33,617]

9 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Pleasing to see Hibbo in some great form the last few weeks. Seems to have slowed his game down a bit and is making smart decisions with ball in hand. Thought he was really solid last night with some important rebounds. 

He’s been great since returning to the side after the break I reckon. Has looked like the player he was when he first came to the club.