1 hour ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Great analysis from Jeff.

I'm really worried about Jones as a midfield coach. You've got players honeypotting it just like Jones used to.

Some of this is no doubt a confidence thing, where you don't trust your team mates to get the job done.

We need to rediscover this really quickly, but the coaches need to drill this into the players. Win your contest, back your team mate in, and support on the outside.

3 hours ago, GS_1905 said:

We have seen so many teams start the games this year with pressure games 200+ sustained for multiple quarters. You can see it clearly on the telly, when there is an intensity to the game. When i refer to effort - this is the only thing i look for. I know we will make mistakes and changing gameplan i expect them. It'll annoy me but i can walk away thinking we are trying something new.

However, i don't understand why we dont bring that frantic pressure we are seeing from just about every other team. Have we even got a quarter over 200 yet? Part of me thinks that it is planned, i.e. not to spend our tickets too early or save the body? Is that because we are not fit enough? What if its not planned? What then? I really hope somebody asks these questions of Goody and others in the club.

Pressure is how you generate turnovers more effectively. Turnovers are crucial to the transition game all over the ground. So to me pressure is fundamental to this game style, that doesn't need a pre-season to train. It just needs you to turn up and fight (very close to inserting Trump's fight GIF).

Interesting thoughts. I was at the game and my overall impression was that we couldn’t run with them, we lack leg speed and our midfield just didn’t run both ways hard enough to compete, main culprits Oliver and Tracc. I just had a look at the AFL tracker data for the match and the raw data says we more than matched them for team kilometres run and seemed to match them for speed and matched them in sprints, having the top 5 speedsters in attack! You would need to do a lot more investigation into the gps data to make total sense of it, but Tracker indicates we are doing a lot of running and sprinting for no reward this season.

Can someone please explain it to me what the game plan is as I don't know? I'm wondering why we are so bad at every aspect of the game. Is there any aspect we are doing well? I look at the list and our best 22 and I don't think it's that bad but we are playing some terrible footy. Is it just the coaches? How much are the players responsible?

Chip da ball in da backline heaps

So we’re trying a new gameplan but we can’t implement it properly because of the absence Kosi, McVee and Windsor….

And people are going to keep referencing Hawthorn’s first five games last year as if it’s a perfect comparison to us.

And what has any of this got to do with the fumbling, missed tackles, missed set shots, smashed at the clearances etc….

The Bulldogs currently have key personal out and manage to play quick transition footy, Collingwood had key personal out last seasons and managed as well, yes they missed finals but they still played the way they wanted. Having key personal out hurts but it doesn’t stop your systems dead in their tracks.

So this week Kosi and Windsor are back everything will fall into place with players running in waves offering outlets to the ball carrier and we will be looking to use the corridor as much as possible. Opposition teams will stop setting up a circle around Gawn when we bomb it long down the line because we’re going to stop being so predictable. We’re also going to open up the fwd line and get it in quickly and try and isolate Fritsch and JVR and hit them lace out on the lead.

But if Kosi does leave at seasons end what then? Change the gameplan again?

In summary the absence of a 2nd year player, 3rd year player and Pickett renders 11 premiership players useless, devoid of any ability, confidence or leadership.

Looking fwd to this weekend.

Carn the Dees.

1 minute ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

So we’re trying a new gameplan but we can’t implement it properly because of the absence Kosi, McVee and Windsor….

And people are going to keep referencing Hawthorn’s first five games last year as if it’s a perfect comparison to us.

And what has any of this got to do with the fumbling, missed tackles, missed set shots, smashed at the clearances etc….

The Bulldogs currently have key personal out and manage to play quick transition footy, Collingwood had key personal out last seasons and managed as well, yes they missed finals but they still played the way they wanted. Having key personal out hurts but it doesn’t stop your systems dead in their tracks.

So this week Kosi and Windsor are back everything will fall into place with players running in waves offering outlets to the ball carrier and we will be looking to use the corridor as much as possible. Opposition teams will stop setting up a circle around Gawn when we bomb it long down the line because we’re going to stop being so predictable. We’re also going to open up the fwd line and get it in quickly and try and isolate Fritsch and JVR and hit them lace out on the lead.

But if Kosi does leave at seasons end what then? Change the gameplan again?

In summary the absence of a 2nd year player, 3rd year player and Pickett renders 11 premiership players useless, devoid of any ability, confidence or leadership.

Looking fwd to this weekend.

Carn the Dees.

What has it got to do with Hawthorn's poor start last year? Well, the fumbles, basic skill errors etc are illustrative of a lack of confidence in the system and second guessing themselves, overthinking etc.

So back the system, demand better from the players, get the cattle on the park (Kozzy, Spargo and Windsor, all guys that can hit targets and in Kozzy and Caleb, break lines), fix our contest work and keep chipping away at the transition game until it becomes instinctive, and we build trust in it from there.

Get rid of the honeypotting at contest, trust your team mate and no more long bombing as the first option. Be patient when it's not on to go (rather than kicking long to a contest, usually a 2v1 against), and go fast, direct and cleanly (getting it in the hands of guys who can kick to advantage) when it is on.

I'd look at playing Sparrow or Sestan in the back pocket, releasing McVee to half back and giving us another good ball user higher up the field.

We can still carry some ordinary kickers and decision makers in our team, providing they're bringing something else, like team first two way transition and winning their contests. No need for baby and bathwater, but we do need to look at how we bes utilise:

1) Clayton Oliver

2) Christian Petracca

and

3) Jack Viney

6 hours ago, Adam The God said:

What has it got to do with Hawthorn's poor start last year? Well, the fumbles, basic skill errors etc are illustrative of a lack of confidence in the system and second guessing themselves, overthinking etc.

So back the system, demand better from the players, get the cattle on the park (Kozzy, Spargo and Windsor, all guys that can hit targets and in Kozzy and Caleb, break lines), fix our contest work and keep chipping away at the transition game until it becomes instinctive, and we build trust in it from there.

Get rid of the honeypotting at contest, trust your team mate and no more long bombing as the first option. Be patient when it's not on to go (rather than kicking long to a contest, usually a 2v1 against), and go fast, direct and cleanly (getting it in the hands of guys who can kick to advantage) when it is on.

I'd look at playing Sparrow or Sestan in the back pocket, releasing McVee to half back and giving us another good ball user higher up the field.

We can still carry some ordinary kickers and decision makers in our team, providing they're bringing something else, like team first two way transition and winning their contests. No need for baby and bathwater, but we do need to look at how we bes utilise:

1) Clayton Oliver

2) Christian Petracca

and

3) Jack Viney

Fair to say we disagree and that’s ok, I understand what your saying but there was one piece of play from the weekends game that sums up for me that the problems at Melbourne are far bigger than a lack of speed out of the back half and an understanding of the gameplan. I raised this twice in the game day thread, it was the second qtr and the game was still there to be won. Bowey had the ball give or take 10 metre inside our defensive 50, there was a wide camera shot from behind him and every Melbourne player ahead of him (most of the team) were just walking with some even stationary. No leads offered, no one running to create space, nothing. This is nothing to do with the above mentioned problems or inability to break lines. Doesn’t matter what game plan your trying to play, a team with our experience and after what happened last year for players to be simply standing and offering nothing to me means there’s something more going on behind the scenes. I hope I’m wrong but we’ve seen this before.

2 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Fair to say we disagree and that’s ok, I understand what your saying but there was one piece of play from the weekends game that sums up for me that the problems at Melbourne are far bigger than a lack of speed out of the back half and an understanding of the gameplan. I raised this twice in the game day thread, it was the second qtr and the game was still there to be won. Bowey had the ball give or take 10 metre inside our defensive 50, there was a wide camera shot from behind him and every Melbourne player ahead of him (most of the team) were just walking with some even stationary. No leads offered, no one running to create space, nothing. This is nothing to do with the above mentioned problems or inability to break lines. Doesn’t matter what game plan your trying to play, a team with our experience and after what happened last year for players to be simply standing and offering nothing to me means there’s something more going on behind the scenes. I hope I’m wrong but we’ve seen this before.

Very obvious live the last 2 weeks that we don’t have players working hard enough without the ball. Besides dropping 15 players this week (a couple did have a crack) I’m not sure how to fix this mentality without bringing in a new coach and assistants.

The Jeff White analysis is ultra-interesting, and confirms what I had started to think: Jones is not the man for the job sand the quicker we realise it, the better. As Adam the God said, we are playing exactly like he used to, but with our midfield, that is so wrong.

Also agree that the players are not running to offer leads etc - usually a sign of dissatisfaction with the coach, but which coach?

Richardson needs to get involved.

Everyone getting sucked into the contest is the players being selfish and not trusting their teammates rather than a coaching issue.

I'd take two of Viney, Oliver and Petracca out of the midfield and replace them with Langford and one of Kozzy or Windsor. You need outside receivers to get the ball and get a move on, our mix is too samey and totally out of form.

We really miss Pickett, McVee and Windsor and we’ll miss Lindsay. Viney as a forward pocket I think is worth a shot. Langford, Petracca, Windsor, Lindsay, Pickett and Oliver could be our key mids. I’m not convinced by Rivers or Langdon in the middle and think McVee is just too valuable off half back. Do we send Rivers back even though his disposal can be ordinary he does have a beautiful penetrating long kick? We may well end up sending JVR to the ruck and AJ to the VFL. We need our leaders to stand up but outside of Gawn we have Petracca who I think burnt his leadership credentials, Viney, who is horribly out of form. Lever, who spends more and more time on the sidelines and then no one. This is a big issue for us because we need to sustain effort and enthusiasm whilst we transition and cop some losses. I reckon our leaders are the first to drop their heads. It’s time to drop the carrot and pick up the stick and whack these guys.

31 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Everyone getting sucked into the contest is the players being selfish and not trusting their teammates rather than a coaching issue.

I'd take two of Viney, Oliver and Petracca out of the midfield and replace them with Langford and one of Kozzy or Windsor. You need outside receivers to get the ball and get a move on, our mix is too samey and totally out of form.

Everyone getting sucked into the contest also shows a lack of confidence in your teammates and also shows players trying to lift the team. Unfortunately it’s not showing the smarts needed to turn our clearance numbers around.

Is it also part of the gameplan to continuously wrestle with your opponent at centre bounces?

Does my head in.

Pretty sure our new game plan is not working

Whatever it is.

This shows effort isn't there. It shows they capitulate.

Something rotten in the State of Denmark

42 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

This shows effort isn't there. It shows they capitulate.

Something rotten in the State of Denmark

yep. no game plan works without effort.

49 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

This shows effort isn't there. It shows they capitulate.

Something rotten in the State of Denmark

yeesh, that's ugly

2 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

The Jeff White analysis is ultra-interesting, and confirms what I had started to think: Jones is not the man for the job sand the quicker we realise it, the better. As Adam the God said, we are playing exactly like he used to, but with our midfield, that is so wrong.

Also agree that the players are not running to offer leads etc - usually a sign of dissatisfaction with the coach, but which coach?

Richardson needs to get involved.

I agree I was sceptical of the Jones appointment and his ability to bring anything innovative to the midfield. However how many centre bounces and stoppages have Gawn, Oliver, Viney & Tracc attended over the past 10 seasons? Like thousands! They should be coaching themselves by now. It’s difficult to fathom why this core group has dropped from top 5 to 18th so quickly.

Didn’t they used to say the great midfields at Geelong and then Hawthorn hardly needed a coach, they operated on auto pilot knowing instinctively what each needed to do and was going to do. That’s gone missing at MFC.

in Jones' defence, whilst he may be the midfield coach, we don't know how much autonomy/direction he has for the role.

But we've gone from a contested beast to 16th in tackles which is sad and 18th in clearances. Is it older legs, have they lost the spring in their step?

48 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

This shows effort isn't there. It shows they capitulate.

Something rotten in the State of Denmark

Pretty damming data.

Agree it shows the effort isn't there.

Of course, effort is in large part a mental thing - pushing through the pain barrier, working hard for your team and all that. And i don't want to give players an out, but to be honest my main concern is whether the drop off in effort is related to a relative lack of conditioning - that's to say we're not fit enough.

And if that's the case we are in a world of hurt - players can get their focus right pretty quick but not much can be done if they are not fit enough.

A disclaimer - I fully acknowledge this next comment is pure wish casting and could reasonably be construed as giving players an out. But its more a thought bubble than anything else.

If in fact we are not in optimal shape is there any likelihood that is by design?

By that i mean the orthodoxy has been teams are in their optimal shape come round one, and their condition diminishes until the mid-season bye when they fill up the tank again, so to speak.

But i wonder if the increasing aerobic demands mean high performance programs are being adjusted, and some teams are trialing different approaches.

The hawks and lions both started very slow last year (lions 0-3 and hawks 0-5) and in the lion's case there was commentary about their aging stars and being too slow. But they were arguably the clubs in the best condition come finals.

Long bow i know - and for the sake of argument if true i reckon a stupid move given early season wins are super important for us given all that has gone on.

Edited Monday at 23:512 days by binman

11 minutes ago, binman said:

If in fact we are not in optimal shape is there any likelihood that is by design?

Told my wife something similar the other day. She was sceptical but I just don’t think she’s thought through all the negatives of me being in stud mode.

50 minutes ago, binman said:

Pretty damming data.

Agree it shows the effort isn't there.

Of course, effort is in large part a mental thing - pushing through the pain barrier, working hard for your team and all that. And i don't want to give players an out, but to be honest my main concern is whether the drop off in effort is related to a relative lack of conditioning - that's to say we're not fit enough.

And if that's the case we are in a world of hurt - players can get their focus right pretty quick but not much can be done if they are not fit enough.

A disclaimer - I fully acknowledge this next comment is pure wish casting and could reasonably be construed as giving players an out. But its more a thought bubble than anything else.

If in fact we are not in optimal shape is there any likelihood that is by design?

By that i mean the orthodoxy has been teams are in their optimal shape come round one, and their condition diminishes until the mid-season bye when they fill up the tank again, so to speak.

But i wonder if the increasing aerobic demands mean high performance programs are being adjusted, and some teams are trialing different approaches.

The hawks and lions both started very slow last year (lions 0-3 and hawks 0-5) and in the lion's case there was commentary about their aging stars and being too slow. But they were arguably the clubs in the best condition come finals.

Long bow i know - and for the sake of argument if true i reckon a stupid move given early season wins are super important for us given all that has gone on.

It doesn’t look like we’re running well, so I think calling our fitness into question is fair.

If it’s intentional, as you say, I think that’s moronic given the year and off-season we were coming off. Hitting the ground running (pardon the pun) should have been our core focus.

If it’s not intentional, that’s just as bad. Why are we not fit?

And if we are fit, then our lack of running is a lack of effort, which is just as bad again.

1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

It doesn’t look like we’re running well, so I think calling our fitness into question is fair.

If it’s intentional, as you say, I think that’s moronic given the year and off-season we were coming off. Hitting the ground running (pardon the pun) should have been our core focus.

If it’s not intentional, that’s just as bad. Why are we not fit?

And if we are fit, then our lack of running is a lack of effort, which is just as bad again.

Part of the slowness comes from a change in game plan. Players need to know where to be and when things change it takes longer to get to the right spots and longer to realise you’ve got to move. But even allowing for that we don't look fit. I’m well and truly off Selwyn..

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

I agree I was sceptical of the Jones appointment and his ability to bring anything innovative to the midfield. However how many centre bounces and stoppages have Gawn, Oliver, Viney & Tracc attended over the past 10 seasons? Like thousands! They should be coaching themselves by now. It’s difficult to fathom why this core group has dropped from top 5 to 18th so quickly.

Didn’t they used to say the great midfields at Geelong and then Hawthorn hardly needed a coach, they operated on auto pilot knowing instinctively what each needed to do and was going to do. That’s gone missing at MFC.

You would think that but if they are directed to position themselves in a certain way, they are expected to follow that instruction.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Pretty damming data.

Agree it shows the effort isn't there.

Of course, effort is in large part a mental thing - pushing through the pain barrier, working hard for your team and all that. And i don't want to give players an out, but to be honest my main concern is whether the drop off in effort is related to a relative lack of conditioning - that's to say we're not fit enough.

And if that's the case we are in a world of hurt - players can get their focus right pretty quick but not much can be done if they are not fit enough.

A disclaimer - I fully acknowledge this next comment is pure wish casting and could reasonably be construed as giving players an out. But its more a thought bubble than anything else.

If in fact we are not in optimal shape is there any likelihood that is by design?

By that i mean the orthodoxy has been teams are in their optimal shape come round one, and their condition diminishes until the mid-season bye when they fill up the tank again, so to speak.

But i wonder if the increasing aerobic demands mean high performance programs are being adjusted, and some teams are trialing different approaches.

The hawks and lions both started very slow last year (lions 0-3 and hawks 0-5) and in the lion's case there was commentary about their aging stars and being too slow. But they were arguably the clubs in the best condition come finals.

Long bow i know - and for the sake of argument if true i reckon a stupid move given early season wins are super important for us given all that has gone on.

I have heard Gawn say its not fitness. They feel they are super fit after the pre-season.

My feel is the instinct is gone and the resulting confusion looks terrible. They are not sure where to run, how to position themselves etc This accords with my view from the top deck of the G - I moved from the wing to behind the goals during the game and it seems obvious that they don't know what to do instinctively.

The bees to the honeypot at centre bounce is classic everybody trying too hard and system has gone out the window.

But worse is the running to spread when we have the ball. This creates congestion and puts a huge pressure on the ball carrier to hit targets. It so much easier to kick the ball to space and let a team mate run to it. But that takes a lot of co-ordination and team work. By the end of the game they appear to throw in the towel

Alarming was the lack of tackling (and ineffectiveness), missed handballs, poor kicking and generally deplorable skills. This was evident in te first quarter where May missed several kicks, rivers missed the ball with his hand when handballing and numerous handballs to players feet.

But for me it starts at the coal face. We have 3 butchers in the middle that are not gelling and seem more content to wrestle their opponents. They are being pushed to the contest and the outside becomes a danger zone for us.