39 minutes ago, rjay said:

He had lost all form down back and was played forward as a last resort.

It worked for a year or so and now he has lost all form forward.

I don't think moving him back is the answer.

If you can remember that first of all his form was ok down back he was shifted at times  to pinch hit up forward where he kicked

multiple goal maybe twice when shifted late in the games.  That  was in  the Roos reign  he had the knack to  change forwards to back and vice versa with good success. 

Tmac  played mostly as forward in his teenage years before coming to us.  Shows in his kicking style  when kicking for goal..

Obviously you don't like Tmac down back or forward. I will keep that in mind.

 

Edited October 10, 20204 yr by nosoupforme

47 minutes ago, rjay said:

He had lost all form down back and was played forward as a last resort.

It worked for a year or so and now he has lost all form forward.

I don't think moving him back is the answer.

Exactly right. Apart from killing us with turnovers he was struggling for mobility when the ball hit the deck and his confidence to hold position was poor too. 
 

The ruck/forward role when Gawn went down and then the key forward role in 2018 really rejuvenated him. But I’m very concerned his issues are mental and physical. 

18 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Exactly right. Apart from killing us with turnovers he was struggling for mobility when the ball hit the deck and his confidence to hold position was poor too. 
 

The ruck/forward role when Gawn went down and then the key forward role in 2018 really rejuvenated him. But I’m very concerned his issues are mental and physical. 

Your quick to criticize   Tmac  however you have time for Joel Smith   you a a hard critic,  Please spare me!

50 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

Your quick to criticize   Tmac  however you have time for Joel Smith   you a a hard critic,  Please spare me!

Not sure why the two compare. With a lack of better options I think Smith is worth one last shot as a developmental defender.

Tom was once a developmental defender who became a good one, then trailed off. He reinvigorated himself as a key forward and for his sake I can hope he can find that form again. I think he's a slim chance to find his form again as a forward, I think he's very unlikely to do so down back.

On 10/2/2020 at 7:13 PM, Romey said:

Call me an optimist but I still can’t get past the fact that we have a guy on our list that averaged 2.65 goals per game over 20 games in 2018. Had he done that this year he would have won the Coleman.

In fact over the past 5 years the only players who have averaged more than this in any given year are Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, Hawkins, Brown and Cameron - that’s pretty impressive company.  

I’d rather play him at Casey all year in the hope of him regaining that form than trading him for a second round draft pick and trying our luck with someone else. The fact that he can also play defence and wing is all the more reason for keeping him.
 

He did but very few on here ever acknowledge Hogans impact up forward that year.  Playing second fiddle to hogan, Tmac had his way.  The weid has to stand up and start sticking some marks and smashing bodies like Hoges did.

On 10/2/2020 at 7:13 PM, Romey said:

Call me an optimist but I still can’t get past the fact that we have a guy on our list that averaged 2.65 goals per game over 20 games in 2018. Had he done that this year he would have won the Coleman.

In fact over the past 5 years the only players who have averaged more than this in any given year are Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, Hawkins, Brown and Cameron - that’s pretty impressive company.  

I’d rather play him at Casey all year in the hope of him regaining that form than trading him for a second round draft pick and trying our luck with someone else. The fact that he can also play defence and wing is all the more reason for keeping him.
 

At $700 to 750,000 for two more years, I would take a Second Round Pick in a heartbeat, if there was any likelihood of him playing at Casey. 

1 minute ago, goodwindees said:

At $700 to 750,000 for two more years, I would take a Second Round Pick in a heartbeat, if there was any likelihood of him playing at Casey. 

I would take any pick in a heartbeat, for a salary dump, then bring in Ben Brown

1 hour ago, Dees247 said:

I would take any pick in a heartbeat, for a salary dump, then bring in Ben Brown

forget the pick for a moment....how much of a salary "dump" would you want assuming he is on $700k per year

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

forget the pick for a moment....how much of a salary "dump" would you want assuming he is on $700k per year

I would seriously consider swallowing half his salary if it meant we could move him on.

Essendon could take him. Hawthorn maybe. Might be worth trying to swap him for Polec.

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

forget the pick for a moment....how much of a salary "dump" would you want assuming he is on $700k per year

$200k across the two years

6 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Exactly right. Apart from killing us with turnovers he was struggling for mobility when the ball hit the deck and his confidence to hold position was poor too. 
 

The ruck/forward role when Gawn went down and then the key forward role in 2018 really rejuvenated him. But I’m very concerned his issues are mental and physical. 

 

7 hours ago, rjay said:

He had lost all form down back and was played forward as a last resort.

It worked for a year or so and now he has lost all form forward.

I don't think moving him back is the answer.

I don’t believe these posts are correct from what I recall.

His form down back was fine, he had no issues playing his role there and we didn’t hide him forward due to poor form at all. 

He had to go forward as the Weed was playing like a 10 year old boy and was in the twos for most of the year. Hoges was battling cancer and Gawn was crippled also.

There was no one else other than Pedo where they tucked and rested up forward. Him going forward had nothing to do with him playing poorly down back.

I’m not a TMac lover and have continually said his 50 goals will never be repeated until he’s back to a number 2 forward. With Jackson/Weid there now I have no issue with him going back.

A couple times over the last two years he gave a chop out down back and didn’t look good. A concern would be impacting the cohesion there as May/Hibberd provide better rebound whilst May/Lever have better hands. Still, Tommy’s are pretty safe and it might take a while to settle but I would be fine with him going back down back.

The positive could be that Max could rest forward instead of a kick behind the ball with another big back there.

1 hour ago, Deeko2 said:

 

I don’t believe these posts are correct from what I recall.

His form down back was fine, he had no issues playing his role there and we didn’t hide him forward due to poor form at all. 

He had to go forward as the Weed was playing like a 10 year old boy and was in the twos for most of the year. Hoges was battling cancer and Gawn was crippled also.

There was no one else other than Pedo where they tucked and rested up forward. Him going forward had nothing to do with him playing poorly down back.

I’m not a TMac lover and have continually said his 50 goals will never be repeated until he’s back to a number 2 forward. With Jackson/Weid there now I have no issue with him going back.

A couple times over the last two years he gave a chop out down back and didn’t look good. A concern would be impacting the cohesion there as May/Hibberd provide better rebound whilst May/Lever have better hands. Still, Tommy’s are pretty safe and it might take a while to settle but I would be fine with him going back down back.

The positive could be that Max could rest forward instead of a kick behind the ball with another big back there.

Might've been on Oscar but the stats show Riewoldt kicked 4 and Hawkins kicked 5 the 2 weeks before Gawn went down.

I remember Tom being Tom, lots of intercept marks, getting a heap of the ball, but turnovers and getting caught out for mobility and smarts. There's no doubt the ruck and forward role rejuvenated him. Even late in 2016 Roos would swing him forward - because the forward line needed him but also to give him some freedom.

Tom was the main man in 2018. The idea that he needed Hogan was a myth. He did just as well with Weid in the side late in the year. 

His mobility is poor as a forward. I don't see how it gets better down back unless we use him as a Harry Taylor type player and make sure our pressure is consistently great and that our wingers are always back to provide get out kicks like the Cats wingers are.

Personally I don't think we'll ever want to play like that so we don't want a big immobile CHB. We want hard charging Tom at CHF. Who might not be able to change directions but can always be a threat on the lead and can crash a pack. His marking has been shot for 2 years, that's another reason not to risk him down back.

 

1 hour ago, Deeko2 said:

I don’t believe these posts are correct from what I recall.

His form down back was fine, he had no issues playing his role there and we didn’t hide him forward due to poor form at all. 

He looked like being the answer as KPB and future AA.

...but then he got found out/lost his confidence.

He started getting a lot of goals kicked on him and as 'Dee' says above he was turning the ball over.

His days as a defender were done.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Might've been on Oscar but the stats show Riewoldt kicked 4 and Hawkins kicked 5 the 2 weeks before Gawn went down.

I remember Tom being Tom, lots of intercept marks, getting a heap of the ball, but turnovers and getting caught out for mobility and smarts. There's no doubt the ruck and forward role rejuvenated him. Even late in 2016 Roos would swing him forward - because the forward line needed him but also to give him some freedom.

Tom was the main man in 2018. The idea that he needed Hogan was a myth. He did just as well with Weid in the side late in the year. 

His mobility is poor as a forward. I don't see how it gets better down back unless we use him as a Harry Taylor type player and make sure our pressure is consistently great and that our wingers are always back to provide get out kicks like the Cats wingers are.

Personally I don't think we'll ever want to play like that so we don't want a big immobile CHB. We want hard charging Tom at CHF. Who might not be able to change directions but can always be a threat on the lead and can crash a pack. His marking has been shot for 2 years, that's another reason not to risk him down back.

 

It’s funny how different people recall things. Not saying I’m right or you’re right, I just remember it differently.

His mobility was fine as lots of times he streamed out of half back with no issues - other than his occasional shank in kicking. 

He was Nick Riewoldts hardest opponent (Nick told me directly this) so it’s hard to believe that at this stage he had mobility issues and lacked footy smarts.

With this in mind, I’m thinking that perhaps he will get back to playing solid footy as a backman with some higher quality players around him like he did with AA Frawley next to him.

As for 2018 forward Tom, I disagree again. I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread that not once did he receive the best defender or the interceptor forcing him into a 2 on 1 unless Hogan was out injured. It was the common theme that was happening all year.

He was still great in 2018 but the fact he’s done sweet bugger all since up forward with more focus on him pretty much confirms that he’s just a good number 2.

Anyways, with this all said and done, I’d rather Weid, Jackson, May and Lever as our spine for 2021 and hope is wage spent somewhere else.

1 hour ago, rjay said:

He looked like being the answer as KPB and future AA.

...but then he got found out/lost his confidence.

He started getting a lot of goals kicked on him and as 'Dee' says above he was turning the ball over.

His days as a defender were done.

I remember thinking he would be our next AA and our next premiership backline was going to be:

FB:  Strauss.  Frawley.  Jetta

HB:  Grimes.  McDonald.  Garland

How times change.

Anyways, as I mentioned above, I remember it a bit differently and his work down back was going along ok and he was developing fine - he had a lot of practice back there.

He did have some turnovers but his days as a defender really only ceased permanently due to injuries and the Weid taking a while to develop imo.

 

4 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

$200k across the two years

$100k per year paid by the MFC?

No one will take him on those figures.

$200k per year and you might get a nibble if very lucky.

The problem with T Mac is that he was "fit to play" most of 2020 and could not make the team in front of Preuss and Brown both who would be on less than half Tom's money.

 

Edited October 10, 20204 yr by Diamond_Jim

5 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

I would seriously consider swallowing half his salary if it meant we could move him on.

Essendon could take him. Hawthorn maybe. Might be worth trying to swap him for Polec.

I think that's more realistic

On 9/24/2020 at 10:38 AM, Dees247 said:

Before our last game, I talked to someone, who is closer than most to the Pies, & he raised Tom’s name. I laughed and said you can have him for a 4th or 5th round pick, and that he obviously doesn’t watch a lot of Dees games. Later on I thought maybe I shouldn’t have said that. He also went on to say how good Dunn had been for them. I know it sounds crazy, with the Pies needing cap space, but this is what I heard.

Linked TMac to the Pies (above), nearly 5 weeks ago. The fact that they are still named in the Fox Footy article about Tom, suggests there may be some substance to the rumour.

On 10/11/2020 at 1:24 AM, Diamond_Jim said:

$100k per year paid by the MFC?

No one will take him on those figures.

$200k per year and you might get a nibble if very lucky.

The problem with T Mac is that he was "fit to play" most of 2020 and could not make the team in front of Preuss and Brown both who would be on less than half Tom's money.

 

no, soz, i  meant $200k each year across the two years

looks like he's definitely on the move; going to be interesting to see where and what salary we carry

On 10/10/2020 at 8:51 PM, Deeko2 said:

 

His form down back was fine, he had no issues playing his role there and we didn’t hide him forward due to poor form at all. 

He had to go forward as the Weed was playing like a 10 year old boy and was in the twos for most of the year. Hoges was battling cancer and Gawn was crippled also.

There was no one else other than Pedo where they tucked and rested up forward. Him going forward had nothing to do with him playing poorly down back.

 

Agree 

Back in the day (I love that expression) some friends and I voteds to see who we thought were our most important players.  This was after the 2018 season and before 2019 started.  My number one was Tom McDonald.  I voted for him because I thought if he went down we had nobody to replace him and we would struggle.

He was never injured but in a sense he did go down, for the best part of two years.  The first was a result of operations on two ankles and then that was compounded by the idea he needed to become a "beast" and so he put on weight.  It didn't go well and we missed finals in the following two years.

Like most I suspect, I thought he was finished and that Weid and Brown would fill the KPF spots in 2021.

Not so.  Tommy has largely flown under the radar this year, not that he hasn't been noticed, but he certainly hasn't been noticed enough.  He's polled coaches votes (the only votes I take much notice of) in 10 of the 16 games we've played.  I haven't compared that with the big 3 (Trac, Clarrie and Gawny) but I suspect he may well be at the top of the list for number of games where he's received votes.  Often it's just one or two but regardless, one coach has considered him to be in the best (say) 8 players on the ground in 10 of 16 games.

This should have him in AA territory but I suspect he's not even in the top 40, perhaps not even being considered. IMO this is wrong as he's been as good and as consistent as anyone that plays his role which is clearly not the say at home forward.

I've always loved Tommy.  I love his honesty and I love the way he presents off the field.  I've always felt he's been judged against very high expectations and his clangers have been highlighted and his good stuff discounted.  One of his great skills in 2018 was his clunk marking.  I noticed, particularly in the 2020 PS, that this had disappeared to be replaced by the double grabber.  But the clunk is back and he's now a very dangerous player for the opposition to manage.

He was shot at the end of 2020 and on the trade table with no takers.  He's now a vitally important player in our team.  It's a credit to him but it's also a credit to the relationship that Simon Goodwin has with him that they could go through the process at the end of last year and get the result we now have.  This of course is one of Goodwin's great strengths but that is a topic for another thread.

Anyway I  think he has been as important as any player on our list to our success this year and he deserves much more recognition than he's getting.

i agree with the all oztrayan call @Baghdad Bob - few players are playing a true 'centre half forward' role quite like plugger mac at the moment

52 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Back in the day (I love that expression) some friends and I voteds to see who we thought were our most important players.  This was after the 2018 season and before 2019 started.  My number one was Tom McDonald.  I voted for him because I thought if he went down we had nobody to replace him and we would struggle.

He was never injured but in a sense he did go down, for the best part of two years.  The first was a result of operations on two ankles and then that was compounded by the idea he needed to become a "beast" and so he put on weight.  It didn't go well and we missed finals in the following two years.

Like most I suspect, I thought he was finished and that Weid and Brown would fill the KPF spots in 2021.

Not so.  Tommy has largely flown under the radar this year, not that he hasn't been noticed, but he certainly hasn't been noticed enough.  He's polled coaches votes (the only votes I take much notice of) in 10 of the 16 games we've played.  I haven't compared that with the big 3 (Trac, Clarrie and Gawny) but I suspect he may well be at the top of the list for number of games where he's received votes.  Often it's just one or two but regardless, one coach has considered him to be in the best (say) 8 players on the ground in 10 of 16 games.

This should have him in AA territory but I suspect he's not even in the top 40, perhaps not even being considered. IMO this is wrong as he's been as good and as consistent as anyone that plays his role which is clearly not the say at home forward.

I've always loved Tommy.  I love his honesty and I love the way he presents off the field.  I've always felt he's been judged against very high expectations and his clangers have been highlighted and his good stuff discounted.  One of his great skills in 2018 was his clunk marking.  I noticed, particularly in the 2020 PS, that this had disappeared to be replaced by the double grabber.  But the clunk is back and he's now a very dangerous player for the opposition to manage.

He was shot at the end of 2020 and on the trade table with no takers.  He's now a vitally important player in our team.  It's a credit to him but it's also a credit to the relationship that Simon Goodwin has with him that they could go through the process at the end of last year and get the result we now have.  This of course is one of Goodwin's great strengths but that is a topic for another thread.

Anyway I  think he has been as important as any player on our list to our success this year and he deserves much more recognition than he's getting.

100% correct BB

That statistic of scoring coaches votes in 10 out of 16 matches is one that absolutely surprises me. You are certainly right about him going under the radar! Obviously, he has been a great player for us this year but I hadn’t realised that he was so essential.  I think his reemergence this year has shown him to be an outstanding person and, like BB, I completely admire him for it and also admire Goody for the encouragement he has obviously given him.

I've always been a fan of Tom and it pleases me no end to see him playing so well. Thanks to Goody for showing faith in him and turning his career around.