Garry Lyon: "Melbourne Supporters are Gutted"

[chook fowler 19,533]

The heat is really on the Club now. Ox has joined the chorus with Crawford, Lyon, Brererton, Watson ripping into all aspects including Board, CEO, coaches and players. The get out of jail card has expired and something will have to give. 

Viva la revolution!

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,865]

Agree with pretty much everything that's been said here. I'll say one thing though, Lyon and Derm didn't say anything that hasn't been said on this forum for months by well credential-led judges in a much more coherent manner. Well done 'Landers. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Queanbeyan Demon

[rufus 1,162]

3 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

The heat is really on the Club now. Ox has joined the chorus with Crawford, Lyon, Brererton, Watson ripping into all aspects including Board, CEO, coaches and players. The get out of jail card has expired and something will have to give. 

Viva la revolution!

We've been here before though. Many times. Remember the week Mitch Robinson accidentally said what every club thinks about us (that we like it bruise free)? The players came out breathing fire the next week. Smashed the Bombers. Mission accomplished apparently because we went back to normal within a few weeks.

I just don't think this club is about winning. There has always been a reason why it's too hard for our players. You can see the culture of this club all over this fan board...

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

16 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

The heat is really on the Club now. Ox has joined the chorus with Crawford, Lyon, Brererton, Watson ripping into all aspects including Board, CEO, coaches and players. The get out of jail card has expired and something will have to give. 

Viva la revolution!

If we lose to Gold Coast minus their young general Matt Rowell, when we have  none of our  best players missing,,  the knives will well and truly be out.

Its one thing to be losing,  its another thing to be losing with the exact same 'gameplan'  we have had for 4 years.

[P-man 13,366]

Found myself nodding along with Watson which made me feel a bit dirty afterwards.

I think they’ve summed up the issue which every supporter knows: skill execution.

The solution that can be implemented straight away is slow. The game. Down.

Weigh up options.

If you STILL can’t execute then you probably shouldn’t be playing AFL.

The Couch also had an interesting discussion about this with Garry teeing off again. Was some damning footage of T Mac’s first aerial contest where he didn’t even COMPETE and watched the ball sail over his head.

Please Goodwin. For God’s sake get Weid and/or Brown in the side this week or I’m gonna throw something at something..

[Earl Hood 6,101]

35 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

The heat is really on the Club now. Ox has joined the chorus with Crawford, Lyon, Brererton, Watson ripping into all aspects including Board, CEO, coaches and players. The get out of jail card has expired and something will have to give. 

Viva la revolution!

What revolution we just don’t have the $ to move Goody on I am afraid. And that situation goes straight back to the board who signed off on Goodwin’s contract extension on the back of one good season. Why do that? he wasn’t about to be poached for heaven’s sake. Just add it to the list of incompetent decisions on top of the numerous non decisions made by our boards of directors for decades! Too many old school tie time servers, I suspect?  I don’t know but they are at best mediocre. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

9 hours ago, Demon3 said:

all fair points.. but i reckon a fwd line coach would help...

How the [censored] is Weideman supposed to develop when we don't even have a dedicated coach to teach him forward craft. Who is he meant to be learning from, TMac? Amateur hour! If you want a return you can't cheap out on the investment.

It feels like there is so much wrong at the moment, it is totally disheartening. Every thread I read on here I think of another 5 things that aren't being addressed or have been done wrong. You could write a thesis on this club.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

9 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

are we actually gutted tho?

i think we're resigned to this continued poor performance

it's not like it's out of the norm

Gutted? I am furious

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

8 hours ago, A F said:

I really think boiling it down to just kicking is a complete oversimplification of what is going on. I think @tiers summed it up best in that it is a combination of poor leading and poor kicking, but I'd also add that confidence plays into it as well (which Tiers might be alluding to as well).

What I found frustrating upon reflection about yesterday is that when we play fast, and we can play fast (as we showed at times yesterday), we can replicate 2018. Ironically, Richmond play fast and it's won them two flags. They play a different style, but it's all about moving the ball quickly forward and not enabling zonal defence to set up properly. This is why Lever kept being caught out of position. 

Not very many teams can constantly set up defensively and quickly to cover fast ball movement, so we'd beat most teams, most weeks with fast ball movement.

What's happened I think is that we've slowly lost confidence due to a lack of poor leading and poor kicking, which has increased the problem, but that the players don't seem to have a blueprint for if/when the opposition makes us play slow. It seems to be long down the line to Max or that's it.

Yesterday, Tom played further up the ground and I think that's his go. He has to 'out-motor' his opponent between backward of centre, all the way into deep forward 50. 

As for Jetts, although I love him, he's only got a high DE by foot because he barely kicks over 20 metres. We need to attack more with our kicking, which given our low confidence is going to be unlikely.

It's our decision making as much as our skills. Check out the vision they showed on the couch - we just continually burn teammates in better positions because we have the blinkers on, "full steam ahead" - they need to get into a flow and be aware of the situations around them, at the moment it's all manic manic manic which leaves us exposed when it inevitably breaks down.

Funnily enough since dwelling on this since yesterday's game I've come to think we aren't that far away. We just need to be a bit smarter with our ball use, a bit more patient as Max said, shake up the lineup so we have another key forward, some better ball users, some more experienced heads out there and we can start rolling again.

The problem is it feels like it's that final few percent that are the hardest to achieve and whether we are actually capable of getting there is another issue. It feels like Sisyphus, we've rolled the boulder almost to the top of the hill - but we all know how that story ends....

[Adam The God 30,407]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's our decision making as much as our skills. Check out the vision they showed on the couch - we just continually burn teammates in better positions because we have the blinkers on, "full steam ahead" - they need to get into a flow and be aware of the situations around them, at the moment it's all manic manic manic which leaves us exposed when it inevitably breaks down.

Funnily enough since dwelling on this since yesterday's game I've come to think we aren't that far away. We just need to be a bit smarter with our ball use, a bit more patient as Max said, shake up the lineup so we have another key forward, some better ball users, some more experienced heads out there and we can start rolling again.

The problem is it feels like it's that final few percent that are the hardest to achieve and whether we are actually capable of getting there is another issue. It feels like Sisyphus, we've rolled the boulder almost to the top of the hill - but we all know how that story ends....

Yup, completely agree about it being decision making based as I said in another thread this evening. I just feel like we've been saying that for years about Melbourne. If we could just improve our decision making...

I hope youre right about us being close. I reckon the confidence took a battering against Richmond and I reckon we're close to falling off the cliff for this year.

[Macca 17,032]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Gutted? I am furious

Yeah I reckon frustrated as well as furious Gonzo.  Not sure about gutted as we've seen the team on numerous occasions have poor seasons. 

2012 & 2013 I felt gutted.  We were completely hopeless in those 2 seasons.

But this team has a semblance of talent albeit with a forward line that needs new personnel and reconstruction.

We know the team is capable of winning against most of the teams yet we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. 

You have to win when you're capable of winning otherwise it seems such a waste.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

47 minutes ago, A F said:

Yup, completely agree about it being decision making based as I said in another thread this evening. I just feel like we've been saying that for years about Melbourne. If we could just improve our decision making...

I hope youre right about us being close. I reckon the confidence took a battering against Richmond and I reckon we're close to falling off the cliff for this year.

Watching the game yesterday I felt it was all on the players. Against the Cats that was on Goodwin, but yesterday we had enough of the ball, our intensity and attack on the footy was good. We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot with our turnovers and poor decision making. Late in the first quarter we had dominated, Richmond had barely had it forward except for the first minute or two. But we had only kicked 2 goals. Richmond kicked their first goal off an idiotic Viney turnover, and from memory they then kicked two goals to finish the quarter off our errors as well. We kicked one back on the siren to basically level it up at quarter time when we should've been 3 or 4 goals ahead.

So we are getting enough of the footy. The players came into the game with the right mindset. But the turnovers are crucifying us. Is it because the players just aren't up to it? Are they being coached out of taking the best/right options? Can they turn things around with a fraction more composure?

Having said that Goodwin and the coaches do not get off the hook. It is up to them to make gameday moves to try and get the fire started, try and fix these things during the game so that we can actually give ourselves a chance of winning instead of accepting defeat and going back to the drawing board during the week. Goodwin absolutely has ultimate responsibility for failing to make any moves on match day or rectifying things at half time to try and get the players focused on how to turn it around. But I can also see why he would want to persist when if it weren't for some pretty basic errors resulting in turnovers and goals we would be on top. It's a bit of a catch 22 - you can see that what you are doing is working to an extent so do you persist and try and reinforce the gameplan you want played and trust the players to start executing better? Or do you move things around to try and get the short term win on match day but sacrificing your long term gameplan/structures etc

This is what I would do this week to try and address some of these issues;

1 An extra key forward into the side - whether that is Weid or Brown or even Jackson we need another big body down there to at least compete if not take the mark. I would go with Weid bur we have the option of playing both Weid and Brown, moving TMac to defense and dropping Smith

2 following on from 1, Joel Smith should be dropped. Simply not good enough especially in a key defensive post. Maybe as a 3rd tall but we already have Lever in that role. Smith should be injury insurance for Lever and nothing more. We can either move TMac into defense if we bring in 2 key forwards or drop Smith for OMac if we bring in only 1 key forward.

3 Bring in Bennell. I don't care if he's underdone or if he needs to work on his defensive efforts. Other small forwards get games with continual poor defensive efforts without offering anywhere near the upside Bennell brings. Whether he comes in for Hunt, VDB or Melksham, take your pick. I'd bring him in for Hunt at this stage, he did nothing the last 2 games

4 bring in Jones - for all his faults Jones does have some composure and is a relatively decent kick. He can come in for one of VDB or Melksham. Melksham has been rubbish so far but he offers more upside than VDB as he has the capacity to kick 3 or 4 goals. Therefore I'd being in Jones for VDB

5 start Harmes in the middle. He was unsighted on Sunday until moving into the middle in the last where he was one of the reasons we got going. Viney can make way for him at the moment. Petracca is currently our best player and Oliver for all his faults can actually win the ball. Oliver is on thin ice too but he is preferred over Viney at this stage who has hit a wall

6 bring Jetta in - Harmes to the middle makes way for Jetta in defence. Similar to Jones he offers composure and a relatively decent kick coming out of defense. He doesn't have a laser kick by any means but he often makes the sensible choice which is why he has such a high DE%

7 - Brayshaw more time in the middle - i haven't noticed Brayshaw much this year which could be a good or bad thing depending on your perspective. I think he deserves an opportunity to at least show what he has, I think he's the type of player who thrives on the responsibility

Another consideration is ANB in for Lockhart. I'm not wedded to this one though but if we are going to play Lockhart it needs to be forward of centre.

I guess that means my squad would look like this

FB Jetta May Lever

CHB Salem TMac/OMac Hibberd

C Tomlinson Petracca Langdon

CHF Jones Brown/TMac Hannan

FF Pickett Weideman Fritsch

Foll Gawn Harmes Oliver

I/C Melksham Bennell Brayshaw Rivers

In: Jetta Jones Weideman Bennell OMac/Brown

Out: Viney Smith Lockhart Vandenberg Hunt

Edited July 6, 2020 by Dr. Gonzo

[binman 43,757]

I agree AF it is too simplistic to say it is all about the lack of foot skills. 

Agree also decision making is a big issue. 

On decision making i agree the game plan may not help. And agree it is the coaches responsibility to help improve decision. But I worry that we have too many players who are simply not great on field thinkers.

The other think I'd more is skill and decision making intersect. i firmly believe many players burn the obvious kick and resort to bombing it (down the line or inside 50) because they don't have confidence in their ability to hit the target.

Players hesitate all the time  for example when seeing a switch option. Or take an easy option and kick it to an out number (so bad decision) rather than take a risk and hit an obvious target.

And for me thus is where the coaching comes in. Players should be encouraged to take the risk. Or at least more of them. I'd rather them miss a target and cause a turnover than simply gifting the opposition an easy out number intercept mark. But players look scared to take risks. In part perhaps because tbey doubt their skill but I wonder if the messaging is right.  

[58er 6,560]

14 hours ago, old dee said:

Funny I said exactly the same to my daughter last night. The difference for me this time is I can see the end in sight.

Funny about that ODee the AFL are not sharing your get rid of the Dees quick quit scheme.

Your  negativity is no doubt based upon years of disappointment but your life is full of events that don't Go The way you like.

We are at rock bottom the way we are playing and our players and Coach and game plan are not in symmetry  but It can get better or we make big changes to ensure that things change.

Forecasting  the finish is foolish inaccurate and a waste of time.

Our task from this week is to Improve and get together and solve the form and skills disaster. There are some good footballers on our list and it's up to them to start playing up to their ability and fir the game plan and selection to be more realistic.

2020 is nowhere near lost yet and anything can happen in this strange world we are in at the present.

Show that you have learned from life and look positively not dismissively on our situation please. 

Us oldies look silly not learning life's lessons and having a half empty approach as it is not going to happen in the AFL much and all as you keep wishing it to eventuate.

[pitmaster 3,578]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Watching the game yesterday I felt it was all on the players. Against the Cats that was on Goodwin, but yesterday we had enough of the ball, our intensity and attack on the footy was good. We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot with our turnovers and poor decision making. Late in the first quarter we had dominated, Richmond had barely had it forward except for the first minute or two. But we had only kicked 2 goals. Richmond kicked their first goal off an idiotic Viney turnover, and from memory they then kicked two goals to finish the quarter off our errors as well. We kicked one back on the siren to basically level it up at quarter time when we should've been 3 or 4 goals ahead.

So we are getting enough of the footy. The players came into the game with the right mindset. But the turnovers are crucifying us. Is it because the players just aren't up to it? Are they being coached out of taking the best/right options? Can they turn things around with a fraction more composure?

Having said that Goodwin and the coaches do not get off the hook. It is up to them to make gameday moves to try and get the fire started, try and fix these things during the game so that we can actually give ourselves a chance of winning instead of accepting defeat and going back to the drawing board during the week. Goodwin absolutely has ultimate responsibility for failing to make any moves on match day or rectifying things at half time to try and get the players focused on how to turn it around. But I can also see why he would want to persist when if it weren't for some pretty basic errors resulting in turnovers and goals we would be on top. It's a bit of a catch 22 - you can see that what you are doing is working to an extent so do you persist and try and reinforce the gameplan you want played and trust the players to start executing better? Or do you move things around to try and get the short term win on match day but sacrificing your long term gameplan/structures etc

This is what I would do this week to try and address some of these issues;

1 An extra key forward into the side - whether that is Weid or Brown or even Jackson we need another big body down there to at least compete if not take the mark. I would go with Weid bur we have the option of playing both Weid and Brown, moving TMac to defense and dropping Smith

2 following on from 1, Joel Smith should be dropped. Simply not good enough especially in a key defensive post. Maybe as a 3rd tall but we already have Lever in that role. Smith should be injury insurance for Lever and nothing more. We can either move TMac into defense if we bring in 2 key forwards or drop Smith for OMac if we bring in only 1 key forward.

3 Bring in Bennell. I don't care if he's underdone or if he needs to work on his defensive efforts. Other small forwards get games with continual poor defensive efforts without offering anywhere near the upside Bennell brings. Whether he comes in for Hunt, VDB or Melksham, take your pick. I'd bring him in for Hunt at this stage, he did nothing the last 2 games

4 bring in Jones - for all his faults Jones does have some composure and is a relatively decent kick. He can come in for one of VDB or Melksham. Melksham has been rubbish so far but he offers more upside than VDB as he has the capacity to kick 3 or 4 goals. Therefore I'd being in Jones for VDB

5 start Harmes in the middle. He was unsighted on Sunday until moving into the middle in the last where he was one of the reasons we got going. Viney can make way for him at the moment. Petracca is currently our best player and Oliver for all his faults can actually win the ball. Oliver is on thin ice too but he is preferred over Viney at this stage who has hit a wall

6 bring Jetta in - Harmes to the middle makes way for Jetta in defence. Similar to Jones he offers composure and a relatively decent kick coming out of defense. He doesn't have a laser kick by any means but he often makes the sensible choice which is why he has such a high DE%

7 - Brayshaw more time in the middle - i haven't noticed Brayshaw much this year which could be a good or bad thing depending on your perspective. I think he deserves an opportunity to at least show what he has, I think he's the type of player who thrives on the responsibility

Another consideration is ANB in for Lockhart. I'm not wedded to this one though but if we are going to play Lockhart it needs to be forward of centre.

I guess that means my squad would look like this

FB Jetta May Lever

CHB Salem TMac/OMac Hibberd

C Tomlinson Petracca Langdon

CHF Jones Brown/TMac Hannan

FF Pickett Weideman Fritsch

Foll Gawn Harmes Oliver

I/C Melksham Bennell Brayshaw Rivers

In: Jetta Jones Weideman Bennell OMac/Brown

Out: Viney Smith Lockhart Vandenberg Hunt

Nicely thought through but there is no way Viney is going out. He brings the heat that has us winning contested ball and is too senior to be dropped without being given a chance to lift this group.

Agree with 1, 2, 3 & 6 but as I wrote elsewhere I'd like to see Salem brought up for improved forward 50 delivery.

Jones is good for grunt but he is a bomber like the rest. He spent much of last year passing to the opposition.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How the [censored] is Weideman supposed to develop when we don't even have a dedicated coach to teach him forward craft. Who is he meant to be learning from, TMac? Amateur hour! If you want a return you can't cheap out on the investment.

It feels like there is so much wrong at the moment, it is totally disheartening. Every thread I read on here I think of another 5 things that aren't being addressed or have been done wrong. You could write a thesis on this club.

Spot on. No one teaching forward craft. Look at St Kilda and King. He has benefited from Roughhead showing him the way. Their whole forward line has. We have Greg Stafford doing that role don’t we ? 

[Pates 9,660]

I’m utterly deflated as a fan by how we’ve played since the restart, I really hoped that what happened last year was largely to do with injury, but I think the club made that same ASSUMPTION and haven’t adjusted accordingly. But with a fit list to choose from our efficiency inside 50 is still diabolical. 

But as a fan and member for 20+ I just don’t think I can cop it anymore, I’ve decided I’m not going to watch next week and I’m going to try to actively avoid it because it breaks me every week. I even had a dream last night that I got fired from my work because I got so angry at Melbourne doing stupid things and losing. I think I dreamed we did 30+ forward entries for nothing and the other team goes up the other end once and kicks a goal. I might as well have just watch previous games. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

14 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Spot on. No one teaching forward craft. Look at St Kilda and King. He has benefited from Roughhead showing him the way. Their whole forward line has. We have Greg Stafford doing that role don’t we ? 

I thought Stafford was solely focused on "goal kicking" not being a forwards coach. Either way he isn't listed on our website so maybe he's been cut?

[Rednblueriseing 825]

11 hours ago, rufus said:

We've been here before though. Many times. Remember the week Mitch Robinson accidentally said what every club thinks about us (that we like it bruise free)? The players came out breathing fire the next week. Smashed the Bombers. Mission accomplished apparently because we went back to normal within a few weeks.

I just don't think this club is about winning. There has always been a reason why it's too hard for our players. You can see the culture of this club all over this fan board...

I agree with 90pc off what  you said, but not sure you can speak for the fans, we have been through hell many times and the membership kept growing up until this year, it's on the FD to string together the wins now, they have the talent they have the best high performance coach in the world, what's missing?

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Watching the game yesterday I felt it was all on the players. Against the Cats that was on Goodwin, but yesterday we had enough of the ball, our intensity and attack on the footy was good. We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot with our turnovers and poor decision making. Late in the first quarter we had dominated, Richmond had barely had it forward except for the first minute or two. But we had only kicked 2 goals. Richmond kicked their first goal off an idiotic Viney turnover, and from memory they then kicked two goals to finish the quarter off our errors as well. We kicked one back on the siren to basically level it up at quarter time when we should've been 3 or 4 goals ahead.

So we are getting enough of the footy. The players came into the game with the right mindset. But the turnovers are crucifying us. Is it because the players just aren't up to it? Are they being coached out of taking the best/right options? Can they turn things around with a fraction more composure?

Having said that Goodwin and the coaches do not get off the hook. It is up to them to make gameday moves to try and get the fire started, try and fix these things during the game so that we can actually give ourselves a chance of winning instead of accepting defeat and going back to the drawing board during the week. Goodwin absolutely has ultimate responsibility for failing to make any moves on match day or rectifying things at half time to try and get the players focused on how to turn it around. But I can also see why he would want to persist when if it weren't for some pretty basic errors resulting in turnovers and goals we would be on top. It's a bit of a catch 22 - you can see that what you are doing is working to an extent so do you persist and try and reinforce the gameplan you want played and trust the players to start executing better? Or do you move things around to try and get the short term win on match day but sacrificing your long term gameplan/structures etc

This is what I would do this week to try and address some of these issues;

1 An extra key forward into the side - whether that is Weid or Brown or even Jackson we need another big body down there to at least compete if not take the mark. I would go with Weid bur we have the option of playing both Weid and Brown, moving TMac to defense and dropping Smith

2 following on from 1, Joel Smith should be dropped. Simply not good enough especially in a key defensive post. Maybe as a 3rd tall but we already have Lever in that role. Smith should be injury insurance for Lever and nothing more. We can either move TMac into defense if we bring in 2 key forwards or drop Smith for OMac if we bring in only 1 key forward.

3 Bring in Bennell. I don't care if he's underdone or if he needs to work on his defensive efforts. Other small forwards get games with continual poor defensive efforts without offering anywhere near the upside Bennell brings. Whether he comes in for Hunt, VDB or Melksham, take your pick. I'd bring him in for Hunt at this stage, he did nothing the last 2 games

4 bring in Jones - for all his faults Jones does have some composure and is a relatively decent kick. He can come in for one of VDB or Melksham. Melksham has been rubbish so far but he offers more upside than VDB as he has the capacity to kick 3 or 4 goals. Therefore I'd being in Jones for VDB

5 start Harmes in the middle. He was unsighted on Sunday until moving into the middle in the last where he was one of the reasons we got going. Viney can make way for him at the moment. Petracca is currently our best player and Oliver for all his faults can actually win the ball. Oliver is on thin ice too but he is preferred over Viney at this stage who has hit a wall

6 bring Jetta in - Harmes to the middle makes way for Jetta in defence. Similar to Jones he offers composure and a relatively decent kick coming out of defense. He doesn't have a laser kick by any means but he often makes the sensible choice which is why he has such a high DE%

7 - Brayshaw more time in the middle - i haven't noticed Brayshaw much this year which could be a good or bad thing depending on your perspective. I think he deserves an opportunity to at least show what he has, I think he's the type of player who thrives on the responsibility

Another consideration is ANB in for Lockhart. I'm not wedded to this one though but if we are going to play Lockhart it needs to be forward of centre.

I guess that means my squad would look like this

FB Jetta May Lever

CHB Salem TMac/OMac Hibberd

C Tomlinson Petracca Langdon

CHF Jones Brown/TMac Hannan

FF Pickett Weideman Fritsch

Foll Gawn Harmes Oliver

I/C Melksham Bennell Brayshaw Rivers

In: Jetta Jones Weideman Bennell OMac/Brown

Out: Viney Smith Lockhart Vandenberg Hunt

Thanks Dr.   This saved me 30 minutes of typing. It’s so clear. Why don’t our footy special coaches get it.  Why does it take the weekly footy media to raise it !!! It’s been 18 months of poor execution, dumb footy and poor team structure.  

[Deesprate 1,324]

11 hours ago, rufus said:

We've been here before though. Many times. Remember the week Mitch Robinson accidentally said what every club thinks about us (that we like it bruise free)? The players came out breathing fire the next week. Smashed the Bombers. Mission accomplished apparently because we went back to normal within a few weeks.

I just don't think this club is about winning. There has always been a reason why it's too hard for our players. You can see the culture of this club all over this fan board...

Culture you hit the nail on the head. It bigger than individual games; players; coaches and employees. A broken culture will never deliver results. Bartlett got praised for his interview. To me his blind faith in our set ups is delusional. He is the master of corporate speak and flashy undeliverable strategic plans. When we don’t make finals this year who going to own that part of failure. He thinks the more you say excellence the more it is actually achieved. How about instead of saying finals we have a focus on delivering the best culture. Where are the independent culture surveys from the boot studder to the president to tell us where we are at and measure how we are going. The Dees are the masters of spin flashy logos; strategic plans; video. If they were handing out premierships for BS we would be Hawthorn.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

34 minutes ago, Deesprate said:

Culture you hit the nail on the head. It bigger than individual games; players; coaches and employees. A broken culture will never deliver results. Bartlett got praised for his interview. To me his blind faith in our set ups is delusional. He is the master of corporate speak and flashy undeliverable strategic plans. When we don’t make finals this year who going to own that part of failure. He thinks the more you say excellence the more it is actually achieved. How about instead of saying finals we have a focus on delivering the best culture. Where are the independent culture surveys from the boot studder to the president to tell us where we are at and measure how we are going. The Dees are the masters of spin flashy logos; strategic plans; video. If they were handing out premierships for BS we would be Hawthorn.

I’ve always thought a lack of ‘Melbourne people’ within our club has lead to a culture of mediocrity. We have very few past players come back and be involved with the club. Robbo is about the only one. Bartlett claims to have supported melbourne, but seems to have been a West Coast man who turned to the Dees when he saw a business opportunity. Pert is not a Melbourne person. He is an AFL puppet with connections to other clubs. I reckon Goodwin in the same boat.

i am not saying that we need a club full of ex-players, but I don’t know tht those we bring into our club build a culture and understand our club. They never seems to connect with the fans and it all seems plastic. I reckon that rubs off on the players and it is why you see a lack of pride in the jumper, as outlined by several outsiders.

there has been a disconnect since Danners left. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,292]

1 hour ago, pitmaster said:

Nicely thought through but there is no way Viney is going out. He brings the heat that has us winning contested ball and is too senior to be dropped without being given a chance to lift this group.

Agree with 1, 2, 3 & 6 but as I wrote elsewhere I'd like to see Salem brought up for improved forward 50 delivery.

Jones is good for grunt but he is a bomber like the rest. He spent much of last year passing to the opposition.

I agree there is no way Viney will get dropped but that is what I would do for a couple of reasons.

Firstly it makes a statement. I think we need to drop a "big name" and I would rather drop Viney than Oliver at this stage. We could drop Brayshaw and keep Viney in but that feels more scapegoat than statement. Brayshaw hasn't been given the same midfield time as Viney has this year and as I said in my post I would prefer to try and give him more time there to see whether he can turn his form around.

Secondly, Viney is one of the main culprits in killing our momentum with poor decision making. In the first minute or two on Sunday he stopped and handballer backwards putting a teammate under pressure instead of chipping the ball inside to Gawn. Turnover resulted in Richmond's first goal. Another instance in the second (?) quarter he had the ball along the southern stand wing heading towards the city end. Didn't know what to do with it and just bombed it out on the full. Thirdly early in the last he wins the clearance and bombs it into forward 50 burning Hannan on the lead 40 out. Balta takes another uncontested mark due to Viney's poor decision making.

He also seems to go missing for large parts of the game particularly in those quarters where we have trouble scoring.

I'm also worried that he is still stewing on the captaincy but have nothing to prove that. Perhaps dropping him will be the wake up call he needs that he needs to play to his strengths and focus on being smarter with the footy. He is our vice captain, if he is given free reign to blaze away without thinking and other players are constantly in and out of the side what sort of message does that send? Playing favourites.

On Jones, he is definitely prone to bombing the ball - but he also can spot up a kick inside 50 and has the experience to be a bit more composed with the footy and look for the angle kick to open up the field. Playing across half forward should see him less likely to bomb it in compared to playing midfield, half back or wing as he did last year. We need some cool heads out there and Jones and Jetta are must inclusions for me for that reason.

[DistrACTION Jackson 9,225]

So from my understanding we have the following assistant coaches:

- Ben Matthews (midfield) - how much skills based training is he doing because it isn't working?

- Chaplin (defense) - Can't knock the defence at the moment, however I feel Smith should be back up for Lever and we need to play a second key tall to allow Lever to focus on intercept marking, you know that thing we recruited him for??

- Stafford (Ruck and goalkicking) - tbh our goalkicking is improving, however we do not get enough value out of Gawn's hitouts at the moment.

So I don't believe we have a forward coach, is this correct?

If that is the case then why is anyone suprised we can hardly score?

[Deesprate 1,324]

18 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

I’ve always thought a lack of ‘Melbourne people’ within our club has lead to a culture of mediocrity. We have very few past players come back and be involved with the club. Robbo is about the only one. Bartlett claims to have supported melbourne, but seems to have been a West Coast man who turned to the Dees when he saw a business opportunity. Pert is not a Melbourne person. He is an AFL puppet with connections to other clubs. I reckon Goodwin in the same boat.

i am not saying that we need a club full of ex-players, but I don’t know tht those we bring into our club build a culture and understand our club. They never seems to connect with the fans and it all seems plastic. I reckon that rubs off on the players and it is why you see a lack of pride in the jumper, as outlined by several outsiders.

there has been a disconnect since Danners left. 

I totally agree with that. It feels manufactured. The Ox shoots from the hip but his observations are accurate. I think our recent recruit are all in it for the money. I look at Gold Coast they have a bunch of youngsters who will build their own cultures. I just don’t see any culture improvement. It probably unfair but does being a Chair of an AFL club open business doors or is it really a passion for the club. I really hope it the second.