Garry Lyon: "Melbourne Supporters are Gutted"

[Adam The God 30,687]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

Sadly extremely accurate. We are a horrid kicking team, so why are two of our best kicks/decision makers in Jetta and Bennell not playing? Ridiculous.

Still find it hard to listen to Lyon though and him continually trying to cut off Watson was so annoying.

I really think boiling it down to just kicking is a complete oversimplification of what is going on. I think @tiers summed it up best in that it is a combination of poor leading and poor kicking, but I'd also add that confidence plays into it as well (which Tiers might be alluding to as well).

What I found frustrating upon reflection about yesterday is that when we play fast, and we can play fast (as we showed at times yesterday), we can replicate 2018. Ironically, Richmond play fast and it's won them two flags. They play a different style, but it's all about moving the ball quickly forward and not enabling zonal defence to set up properly. This is why Lever kept being caught out of position. 

Not very many teams can constantly set up defensively and quickly to cover fast ball movement, so we'd beat most teams, most weeks with fast ball movement.

What's happened I think is that we've slowly lost confidence due to a lack of poor leading and poor kicking, which has increased the problem, but that the players don't seem to have a blueprint for if/when the opposition makes us play slow. It seems to be long down the line to Max or that's it.

Yesterday, Tom played further up the ground and I think that's his go. He has to 'out-motor' his opponent between backward of centre, all the way into deep forward 50. 

As for Jetts, although I love him, he's only got a high DE by foot because he barely kicks over 20 metres. We need to attack more with our kicking, which given our low confidence is going to be unlikely.

[old dee 24,072]

4 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

It's melancholy times and following the MFC does not help. Did not expect our season to be effectively over so quickly. Was it wrong to be quietly relieved when our game against Essendon was cancelled.

Like the virus there seems to be no way out until we find the magic vaccine.

Quietly planning a trip to Tunisia and Pakistan for when times are normal. Whenever that might be

Don’t hold your breath DJ, I am in the lock down so they are double melancholy here. I think the only sane thing is to take less notice, finding something to take the place is the hard bit.

[old dee 24,072]

The noise for HO is deafening! Don’t the understand that a bit of reassurance might help.

[Diamond_Jim 12,745]

3 minutes ago, old dee said:

Don’t hold your breath DJ, I am in the lock down so they are double melancholy here. I think the only sane thing is to take less notice, finding something to take the place is the hard bit.

Quite enjoyed the Austrian Grand Prix over the weekend. The countryside surrounding the track was jaw droppingly gorgeous.

Oh to be having a strudel in Vienna

[Pennant St Dee 13,428]

12 minutes ago, A F said:

I really think boiling it down to just kicking is a complete oversimplification of what is going on. I think @tiers summed it up best in that it is a combination of poor leading and poor kicking, but I'd also add that confidence plays into it as well (which Tiers might be alluding to as well).

What I found frustrating upon reflection about yesterday is that when we play fast, and we can play fast (as we showed at times yesterday), we can replicate 2018. Ironically, Richmond play fast and it's won them two flags. They play a different style, but it's all about moving the ball quickly forward and not enabling zonal defence to set up properly. This is why Lever kept being caught out of position. 

Not very many teams can constantly set up defensively and quickly to cover fast ball movement, so we'd beat most teams, most weeks with fast ball movement.

What's happened I think is that we've slowly lost confidence due to a lack of poor leading and poor kicking, which has increased the problem, but that the players don't seem to have a blueprint for if/when the opposition makes us play slow. It seems to be long down the line to Max or that's it.

Yesterday, Tom played further up the ground and I think that's his go. He has to 'out-motor' his opponent between backward of centre, all the way into deep forward 50. 

As for Jetts, although I love him, he's only got a high DE by foot because he barely kicks over 20 metres. We need to attack more with our kicking, which given our low confidence is going to be unlikely.

That's the big if though AF, we show flashes of really good footy with quick ball movement but it's just not sustainable over 4 quarters. You can't play that manic pace and not turn the ball over 

Players need to learn to control the tempo  we can't go bull at a gate with every clearance, and we certainly need a tall target for quick entries from clearances and the right crumbers when it hits the deck. Tmac up the ground and Weid close to home has to happen. Not just for getting games into Weid but to enable list management decisions 

I wouldn't tinker to much with the backline, maybe Omac for Smith. Bennell needs to be looked at for his creativity.

Thank god junior footy is back, to give me something to put a smile on my face

[Little Richard 6,265]

26 minutes ago, A F said:

I really think boiling it down to just kicking is a complete oversimplification of what is going on. I think @tiers summed it up best in that it is a combination of poor leading and poor kicking, but I'd also add that confidence plays into it as well (which Tiers might be alluding to as well).

What I found frustrating upon reflection about yesterday is that when we play fast, and we can play fast (as we showed at times yesterday), we can replicate 2018. Ironically, Richmond play fast and it's won them two flags. They play a different style, but it's all about moving the ball quickly forward and not enabling zonal defence to set up properly. This is why Lever kept being caught out of position. 

Not very many teams can constantly set up defensively and quickly to cover fast ball movement, so we'd beat most teams, most weeks with fast ball movement.

What's happened I think is that we've slowly lost confidence due to a lack of poor leading and poor kicking, which has increased the problem, but that the players don't seem to have a blueprint for if/when the opposition makes us play slow. It seems to be long down the line to Max or that's it.

Yesterday, Tom played further up the ground and I think that's his go. He has to 'out-motor' his opponent between backward of centre, all the way into deep forward 50. 

As for Jetts, although I love him, he's only got a high DE by foot because he barely kicks over 20 metres. We need to attack more with our kicking, which given our low confidence is going to be unlikely.

I agree that there's more to the problem than just kicking, yes. The difference between us playing fast and Richmond playing fast is that they have players that can kick, and kick well, especially around half forward. They're also much more creative with their ball use and delivery inside 50. Sadly we're miles off that level right now.

To me Bennell is a player that is going to be absolutely essential around half forward (as long as he stays fit). He's a smart decision maker and a sublime kick - essentially he could be doing what Melksham was doing so well for us in 2018. I think the way Nev plays is crucial to when teams do slow it down. He's a cool head who isn't going to blaze away out of the backline and instead will take a safer option, not coughing it up straight back to the opposition.

I know that bring these players into the side won't solve our problems but it's a step in the right direction IMO.

In terms of struggling against teams who play slow, hold onto the ball kind of footy, we do look lost. You only need to look at the Geelong game to see how hard we found it to get the ball back or hold onto it. Is the answer playing man on man when this is the case? And then when we did struggle as you say, we simply bomb it long to Max which doesn't work much of the time.

Better kicks in this situation would allow us to retain the footy ourselves though and therefore set the tempo, so I think it does play a big part in solving some of our woes. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,404]

Of course there is more to it than just kicking, but Kicking is a fundamental to the game that WE wrote the rules for. 
 

and we are the worst kicking side in the league 

Training needs to go back to the Basics

[Adam The God 30,687]

 

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

Better kicks in this situation would allow us to retain the footy ourselves though and therefore set the tempo, so I think it does play a big part in solving some of our woes. 

On this point I agree to an extent, but still think that this is so much in the way the players are being directed to play. They are clearly being told to go long down the line and try and get a contested mark or reset for stoppage. Problem is it bounces back too easily.

Our spread and work rate has always been a problem. I would have thought that being allegedly fitter this year, we'd be able to push into space and use the width of the ground to find holes like most teams do and Collingwood perfected in 2018. But we don't do this. We simply go long down the line to a contest. So do Richmond mind you, but their fast crumbers are perfectly positioned every time. In fact, those Richmond kicks are often up and unders in order (I presume) to ensure players have a chance to get positioned, but they also have two clear KPFs that bring the ball to ground or are dangerous enough to take contested marks.

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

In terms of struggling against teams who play slow, hold onto the ball kind of footy, we do look lost. You only need to look at the Geelong game to see how hard we found it to get the ball back or hold onto it. Is the answer playing man on man when this is the case? And then when we did struggle as you say, we simply bomb it long to Max which doesn't work much of the time.

I'd love to coach against Melbourne. We have absolutely no idea what to do when the game is slowed. As soon as the tempo is slowed, the only way we can possibly score is for the opposition to make an horrendous turn over. 

One of my football clubs has finally won something and that is Liverpool. If you watch the way Klopp and even Man City play, it's actually a very similar style to Collingwood's and it uses the width of the pitch to ensure it eventually out positions players in the zone and creates space in dangerous areas. I think you're a Liverpool supporter too, so I won't patronise you, but it's a very pervasive tactic that much of the AFL plays now, but that Melbourne don't seem to.

[old dee 24,072]

26 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

That's the big if though AF, we show flashes of really good footy with quick ball movement but it's just not sustainable over 4 quarters. You can't play that manic pace and not turn the ball over 

Players need to learn to control the tempo  we can't go bull at a gate with every clearance, and we certainly need a tall target for quick entries from clearances and the right crumbers when it hits the deck. Tmac up the ground and Weid close to home has to happen. Not just for getting games into Weid but to enable list management decisions 

I wouldn't tinker to much with the backline, maybe Omac for Smith. Bennell needs to be looked at for his creativity.

Thank god junior footy is back, to give me something to put a smile on my face

No such thing over here I am locked up and no other footy. Just sad here PSD.

[Pennant St Dee 13,428]

1 minute ago, old dee said:

No such thing over here I am locked up and no other footy. Just sad here PSD.

I coached/watched my eldest boy and his mates play yesterday Old Dee, nothing better than seeing players play the game they love with mates. Boys had a good win, which makes it better although I sat down with a red to watch us v Richmond when I went home.

I love watching my youngest play because I have no coaching duties just a father watching his son play

I hurt watching our Dees, but I'm over getting frustrated and letting it ruin my weekend or mood.

I have my 2 sons footy on Sundays and Ammos started back on the weekend so I have that over a few frothies with good mates every Saturday and the 2 boys on Sunday.

Life is good just not the Dees currently 

[Canplay 635]

Gary and Derm both spot on, we can all see the following :-

 -  we’ve a midfield issue -  they can all win contested footy but lack foot skills and footy smarts 

-  team selection has been sporadic and poor under goody -  He’s no idea of best team or fwd structure

-  we’ve invested big in the wrong part of ground -  you trade 1st round picks and salary cap for gun midfielders or tall fwds - not backs

-  we’ve overestimated list, including trading away 1st pick this year

-  we’ve invested pick 3 in an under sized ruck we didn’t need -  just too  dumb for words

-  players not learning / changing under coaches

real question is what are the board going to do about it??

 

 

[—coach— 3,496]

Told my 7 and 4yo girls after the game that if they wanted to change clubs they could and it was now or never ? The oldest said “no way” and proudly pranced around the house in her demons jumper and footy shorts, the 4yo was like “yeah let’s go for the dogs!!! (Their mothers team) ?

[reynolds46 1,310]

3 hours ago, Deesprate said:

The supporter group are being treated as mugs

Have been treated with contempt by this club for years. The continual torment has left me with nothing but a misguided sense of loyalty that ends with paying my membership but not bothering to watch games. The handful of semi-successful seasons over the last 50 years are scant reward for decades of support. 

[Little Richard 6,265]

15 minutes ago, —coach— said:

Told my 7 and 4yo girls after the game that if they wanted to change clubs they could and it was now or never ? The oldest said “no way” and proudly pranced around the house in her demons jumper and footy shorts, the 4yo was like “yeah let’s go for the dogs!!! (Their mothers team) ?

And that's how you picked your favourite child.

[Rednblueriseing 866]

19 minutes ago, —coach— said:

Told my 7 and 4yo girls after the game that if they wanted to change clubs they could and it was now or never ? The oldest said “no way” and proudly pranced around the house in her demons jumper and footy shorts, the 4yo was like “yeah let’s go for the dogs!!! (Their mothers team) ?

I purchased a membership for my 2 year old son I have another boy on the way dunno if I'll force it upon them from now on

[old dee 24,072]

35 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

I coached/watched my eldest boy and his mates play yesterday Old Dee, nothing better than seeing players play the game they love with mates. Boys had a good win, which makes it better although I sat down with a red to watch us v Richmond when I went home.

I love watching my youngest play because I have no coaching duties just a father watching his son play

I hurt watching our Dees, but I'm over getting frustrated and letting it ruin my weekend or mood.

I have my 2 sons footy on Sundays and Ammos started back on the weekend so I have that over a few frothies with good mates every Saturday and the 2 boys on Sunday.

Life is good just not the Dees currently 

Enjoy it gets worse by the day here.

[bush demon 2,204]

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

Greg Parke says HI!! Once held the record for number of marks in a VFL Game

One other thing .. I saw Rob Flower playing CHF in a State game,towell up Ross Glendinning playing CHB I think it was 83? Vs W.A I think he kicked 4 or 5 that day!

Just digressing, the memories did bring a momentary smile to my dial! Just for an instant!

Hi Picket fence. I only could only fit Parke on the extended bench due to his poor set shots. FWIW  His first game is/was on YouTube, he dominated.

[poita 3,941]

The scariest thing about that performance is that we are not in any way a young side. We had two first year players, Rivers & Pickett, who are not close to being our worst players. Our next youngest player was Oliver, who is in his fifth season and has played 86 games.

We're wasting time and effort putting games into Smith, Lockhart, Vandenberg and others who are deeply flawed players. We're carrying guys like Wagner x2, Kolodjashnij, Brown and Preuss who can't get near the senior side. None of these guys are going to improve at age 24 and above.

Where are our promising youngsters? Who are the budding replacements for Jetta (30), Gawn (28), May (28) and McDonald (almost 28)?

 

[jnrmac 20,330]

10 minutes ago, poita said:

The scariest thing about that performance is that we are not in any way a young side. We had two first year players, Rivers & Pickett, who are not close to being our worst players. Our next youngest player was Oliver, who is in his fifth season and has played 86 games.

We're wasting time and effort putting games into Smith, Lockhart, Vandenberg and others who are deeply flawed players. We're carrying guys like Wagner x2, Kolodjashnij, Brown and Preuss who can't get near the senior side. None of these guys are going to improve at age 24 and above.

Where are our promising youngsters? Who are the budding replacements for Jetta (30), Gawn (28), May (28) and McDonald (almost 28)?

 

You might have heard of a guy called Luke Jackson?

[old dee 24,072]

29 minutes ago, Luther said:

And that's how you picked your favourite child.

Yep the girl is easily the brightest!

[old dee 24,072]

6 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

You might have heard of a guy called Luke Jackson?

He is 2022 and by then he will go home.

[Earl Hood 6,164]

1 hour ago, Canplay said:

Gary and Derm both spot on, we can all see the following :-

 -  we’ve a midfield issue -  they can all win contested footy but lack foot skills and footy smarts 

-  team selection has been sporadic and poor under goody -  He’s no idea of best team or fwd structure

-  we’ve invested big in the wrong part of ground -  you trade 1st round picks and salary cap for gun midfielders or tall fwds - not backs

-  we’ve overestimated list, including trading away 1st pick this year

-  we’ve invested pick 3 in an under sized ruck we didn’t need -  just too  dumb for words

-  players not learning / changing under coaches

real question is what are the board going to do about it??

 

 

Not much, the club can’t afford to pay out Goodwin after resigning to extra years too soon! If they hadn’t he would be out of contract this year I believe. 
 

in hindsight our drafting is looking like a shambles. I noted last week in Egan’s summary of the seconds run against Geelong that he described Jackson’s ruck work as outstanding “that’s obviously why we drafted him”!!! That hit a raw nerve as why would you cough up pick 3 for a backup ruck when you have Max and brought in Pruess as backup?  At draft time MFC were talking more about his athleticism and his ability play forward or as a midfielder. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Earl Hood

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

2 hours ago, Canplay said:

Gary and Derm both spot on, we can all see the following :-

 -  we’ve a midfield issue -  they can all win contested footy but lack foot skills and footy smarts 

It's true, and i want to say, that when we pump our players heads up 'in comparison to other clubs players or lines',  we end up hurting our players minds. They slowly ease off developing, and stagnate.

Remember all the talk of the best midfield in the AFL, a few short years back. that was our talk, and soon after the media jumped onto that bandwagon.  Well we still have the same midfield group, and look where we're at.

 

Our disposal issue was there before,  But it wasn't as exposed via opposition pressure.   Now it is,  and we can see we weren't as good as we thought.

Fluffing up young developing players heads for them,  is just as bad as constant negative criticism.

[picket fence 18,128]

Well I'm half cut for a Monday ... And I still feel shizen

Gawd Can we get of the Merry go Round??

Gee a zillion years for NO REWARD

Gawd and i empathise with many who are strugglin!

I think iLL HAVE ANOTHER!

[rufus 1,162]

6 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

It's melancholy times and following the MFC does not help. Did not expect our season to be effectively over so quickly. Was it wrong to be quietly relieved when our game against Essendon was cancelled.

Like the virus there seems to be no way out until we find the magic vaccine.

Quietly planning a trip to Tunisia and Pakistan for when times are normal. Whenever that might be

Ha i was the same when Bombers game was cancelled. So relieved. Could just watch other games without wondering what fresh hell the club has to offer us that week.

I generally follow scores now for a couple of reasons...first that we hopefully will kick 2 or 3 goals for the game...and second that we don't lose by 100+. Sad.