Ross Lyon analysis of lack of scoring

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,868]

From QD's three word analysis last Sunday night . . . 

• Gawn - Game-style doesn't suit
• Viney - Sh?t footy brain

Edited July 2, 2020 by Queanbeyan Demon
Typo

[D4Life 2,528]

How were we the highest scoring team in the league in 2018 - same midfield!

Hogan not in team providing a target is obviously a problem.

[pitmaster 3,578]

8 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

 

 

... I wonder if another click is growing within the club.???  I hope not.

FCS the word is 'clique'.

[Clayton van Oliver 1,823]

6 hours ago, picket fence said:

Just my opinion of course!

Ever considered just saying it quietly to yourself? Or just don’t hit enter after every post of outrage and rather build them up to just send one nonsensical and flabbergasted rant per day, rather than the usual squillion? Just my opinion. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by AmDamDemon

[picket fence 17,502]

8 hours ago, AmDamDemon said:

Ever considered just saying it quietly to yourself? Or just don’t hit enter after every post of outrage and rather build them up to just send one nonsensical and flabbergasted rant per day, rather than the usual squillion? Just my opinion. 

Hnmm ok noted!

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

13 hours ago, pitmaster said:

FCS the word is 'clique'.

Why don't you type the words p***master.?   too lazy.?

And you then lash out at others,  for a simple spelling error. get your priorities in order.

.... drop and spell hypocrite for me,  10 times .

[KingDingAling 3,758]

23 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Oliver burned Lockhart badly, last week.  Lockhart worked hard ahead of the ball to find space as the direct option, Oliver looked at him and then ignored him, and kicked sideways to another player near boundary. Lockhart was [censored] off,  and stopped working after, for a minute or so.

It was a glaring burn; and It caused me to wonder if there was some history there.?

To be fair, Oliver probably saw that it was Lockhart. Oliver probably decided he was even better off retreating ground and kicking it to a player he had confidence in. Lockhart is barely even VFL level, so I am going to defend Oliver here. Lockhart would've most likely wasted his opportunity. In key moments last weekend it was obvious Lockhart should not have been out there. 

[In Harmes Way 7,823]

57 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

To be fair, Oliver probably saw that it was Lockhart. Oliver probably decided he was even better off retreating ground and kicking it to a player he had confidence in. Lockhart is barely even VFL level, so I am going to defend Oliver here. Lockhart would've most likely wasted his opportunity. In key moments last weekend it was obvious Lockhart should not have been out there. 

If that's the case, then I'd prefer Oliver kick the ball to him, he then stuffs it up as Oliver expects and the coaches then have a basis to drop/educate him. We need to ingrain good habits with all our players - take the right option quickly and hit up players in space. 

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, KingDingAling said:

To be fair, Oliver probably saw that it was Lockhart. Oliver probably decided he was even better off retreating ground and kicking it to a player he had confidence in. Lockhart is barely even VFL level, so I am going to defend Oliver here. Lockhart would've most likely wasted his opportunity. In key moments last weekend it was obvious Lockhart should not have been out there. 

That is a poor footy attitude,  that smacks of lesser standards. 

Not honoring teammates leads or work to present, is just atrocious.

Lockhart one another ball on the opposite side of the ground during the game,  and threaded the needle long to a teammate in the pocket, on the boundary. A beautiful weighted and directed kick,  which we took.

[DemonWheels 1,086]

Something I see every week:
We'll have a player with a clear run, in possession of the ball, from about 70m out and take 2 steps and kick it forward (similar to the vision Ross showed on FC). As soon as the camera pans forward to where the ball lands you see that there was no opposition player coming towards the kicker. Opposition players just hold back and know the ball is coming in. We should be running the ball closer to goal and where possible shooting for goal once we get to the 50m mark and if not we've had enough time for the forwards to actually 'lead' at a kicker, even double back and lead again to lose their opponent. It's teenage/junior footy basics but we're playing like Auskick in the forward half.

When do we ever see a Melbourne player cross the 50m mark with the ball in their hands?

[pitmaster 3,578]

10 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Why don't you type the words p***master.?   too lazy.?

 

You don't need a full stop if you're using a question mark. 

[pitmaster 3,578]

8 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

 

Lockhart one another ball on the opposite side of the ground during the game,  and threaded the needle long to a teammate in the pocket, on the boundary. A beautiful weighted and directed kick,  which we took.

won

 

(just helping you know?)

Edited July 3, 2020 by pitmaster

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:08 AM, BW511 said:

The only bloke we have who could consistently deliver to the advantage of leading forwards is stuck in the goal square wrestling 

It should be noted that we had the no. 1 player in the league for % successful i50 kicks and we traded him for peanuts. 

For the record, I am pretty sure that the bad delivery is a result of a team rule put in place by the coaches.  It fits with what we've seen of Goodwin's philosophy and frankly it hasn't changed from the day he took over.  If he didn't want the team doing it, we wold be seeing signs of it being stamped out by now. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,302]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:01 PM, D4Life said:

How were we the highest scoring team in the league in 2018 - same midfield!

Hogan not in team providing a target is obviously a problem.

We had space in our forward line then as well, weren't we the number 1 team for goals within 30m? Now we still get it there but we are devoid of space, opposition teams drop back and absorb the punishment then try and get us on the rebound.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,302]

8 hours ago, DemonWheels said:

Something I see every week:
We'll have a player with a clear run, in possession of the ball, from about 70m out and take 2 steps and kick it forward (similar to the vision Ross showed on FC). As soon as the camera pans forward to where the ball lands you see that there was no opposition player coming towards the kicker. Opposition players just hold back and know the ball is coming in. We should be running the ball closer to goal and where possible shooting for goal once we get to the 50m mark and if not we've had enough time for the forwards to actually 'lead' at a kicker, even double back and lead again to lose their opponent. It's teenage/junior footy basics but we're playing like Auskick in the forward half.

When do we ever see a Melbourne player cross the 50m mark with the ball in their hands?

Excellent point, I see this happen frequently too and it drives me crazy. Run in and have a shot. Successful AFL teams kick goals from 50 and have goalkicking mids.  Eventually as you say the defense will push up to put pressure on and we can go over the top to the lose man.

[Pennant St Dee 13,305]

On 7/2/2020 at 2:59 AM, 58er said:

I was staggered when many D/L and the Coaches gave Jack Viney votes last weekend.

Two  reasons 
1. He fell over when clear about a half dozen times and didn't get the take away

2. I can't remember ANY of his kicks reaching a teammate.

Oh and 3. The sample played by RossLyon in not handpassing when a teammate was clear.

BTW Rods said he felt we are not far off just need to smarten our teamwork and decision making.

No doubt we do not play as we train and ifGoody is to survive we need to improve our 1%ers and teamwork in the games.

Reminds me of the Cwood of about 2 seasons ago Couldn't  buy a goal  then overcame that problem and have been a top team since.

Ross Lyon for coach for the above reasons if Goody dies not succeed this year as we have ability no doubt.

I actually agree with this, it's been close to clicking and I've seen glimpses a couple of times. The inside 50 conversion rate is still not great but improving as is the delivery (very slowly). 

We badly need some cohesion with the 22 and it would be good if when we move to the hub we could train together as a large group 

Having said that whilst I've seen glimpses that doesn't always translate to clicking into gear. Confidence and injury can impact this, so hopefully we get to see some connection into the forward half with everyone on the same page 

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

On 7/2/2020 at 5:42 PM, MyFavouriteMartian said:

The same Lyon that was sacked from the Saints, and left them with no list to speak of, other than aging Riewoldt and Montana.

The same coach who was sacked by Freo after suck lofty achievements and development of players.???

 

And Clarko,  who is a magician with club lists,  and has them up and going on one legged plodders.

These same coaches;  who would start again, changing everything, taking us back 3 or 4 years.

Just for the record, he wasn’t sacked by the saints. He blindsided them and did his own deal with freo because they wouldn’t give him the certainty he wanted (according to him).

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

13 hours ago, pitmaster said:

You don't need a full stop if you're using a question mark. 

I do.  Because the letters are too close together to see clearly.  So I assume others might struggle with this as well. So it's done in a helping way, for those less fortunate than petty others.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Some general points.

Ross Lyon was not exactly known for forward potency football even though he had generational key forwards in Pavlich and Reiwoldt available to him.

How many clubs ruckman or inside bull has decision making and kick execution as their strong points?

Agree its hard to get players to change which I suggest is why we have brought in natural runners in  Langdon and Tomlinson and are playing Rivers, Lockhart and Kozzie and Bennell once fit. Have we considered our players are not used to having running options available to them yet?

I still believe the scoring problem is too many mid sized half forwards who do not pressure out enough or run and connect back inside 50 ie: Fritsch, Melksham, Vandenberg, Hunt. We need one less and either a proper tall or a proper small. 

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, FlashInThePan said:

Just for the record, he wasn’t sacked by the saints. He blindsided them and did his own deal with freo because they wouldn’t give him the certainty he wanted (according to him).

Your right he left early in his last season because the Saints were not coming to his table with a fresh contract;  and he had some financial losses,  he grabbed the Freo wad of cash and ran west early.

[Gunna’s 2,104]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/revitalised-hardwick-sets-tone-for-tigers
 

Several have mentioned that players are frustrated, (I don’t know) but I think it is related to being requested to do ‘jobs’ not play football. The article above is how Richmond turned around their game plan and instilled trust in the coach and players. 
 

I believe Goodwin can be the man, however I want the best 22 playing. This doesn’t mean blooding first year players to get them games (unless they are in the best 22) and playing players out of position. The players need confidence that their teammates are the best players available. Dropping ex captains can cause factions if they believe he is in the best 22.  
 

I think the bombing into the forward line is potentially due to them not having a license to just play football and take the best available option. 
 

Hopefully it is just a trust issue, if it is, the recruiting, selection committee and game plan will all influence the confidence the players take into the game. 

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

21 hours ago, DemonWheels said:

Something I see every week:
We'll have a player with a clear run, in possession of the ball, from about 70m out and take 2 steps and kick it forward (similar to the vision Ross showed on FC). As soon as the camera pans forward to where the ball lands you see that there was no opposition player coming towards the kicker. Opposition players just hold back and know the ball is coming in. We should be running the ball closer to goal and where possible shooting for goal once we get to the 50m mark and if not we've had enough time for the forwards to actually 'lead' at a kicker, even double back and lead again to lose their opponent. It's teenage/junior footy basics but we're playing like Auskick in the forward half.

When do we ever see a Melbourne player cross the 50m mark with the ball in their hands?

That is almost Forward Play 101 in its simplicity - totally necessary and one way to improve the investments. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,302]

1 hour ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Some general points.

Ross Lyon was not exactly known for forward potency football even though he had generational key forwards in Pavlich and Reiwoldt available to him.

How many clubs ruckman or inside bull has decision making and kick execution as their strong points?

Agree its hard to get players to change which I suggest is why we have brought in natural runners in  Langdon and Tomlinson and are playing Rivers, Lockhart and Kozzie and Bennell once fit. Have we considered our players are not used to having running options available to them yet?

I still believe the scoring problem is too many mid sized half forwards who do not pressure out enough or run and connect back inside 50 ie: Fritsch, Melksham, Vandenberg, Hunt. We need one less and either a proper tall or a proper small. 

Agreed, we need another tall to offer a second get out option

But we also need those midsized forwards to present up and be the connection between midfield and forward. In 2018 this is something Melksham and Hannan and later Vandenberg when he returned from injury did well. In addition to forward pressure they were the link ups across half forward. This requires high levels of workrate to be constantly on the move and spread the defense.

I'd love to see Weideman come in (or at least Brown) for either Vandenberg or Hannan. I'd probably bring in either Bennell or Jones as well

[pitmaster 3,578]

4 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

I do.  Because the letters are too close together to see clearly.  So I assume others might struggle with this as well. So it's done in a helping way, for those less fortunate than petty others.

Ouch.

Well that's better than hypocrite. 

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:01 PM, D4Life said:

How were we the highest scoring team in the league in 2018 - same midfield!

Hogan not in team providing a target is obviously a problem.

Part of that is the rule-change that killed Goodwin's first gameplan.  In 2018 we were playing with four forwards and two extras at the back end of the square at centre bounces.  That gave us extra players charging through the centre at the bounce, all heading forwards.  It worked brilliantly, as we saw from our insane number of inside 50's that year.  Even then though, it was clear that our efficiency in the forward 50 was a problem.  While we were having massive I50 counts, we weren't blowing a lot of teams away on the scoreboard.  We won on weight of numbers rather than good structure and quality forwards.  When they changed the rules and we couldn't have those extra players behind the ball it hurt our ability to get the ball moving forward quickly, our I50 numbers dropped and the poor efficiency became more of an issue. 

That being said, there has also been a massive drop in efficiency which is hard to explain solely through that one change. 

In 2018 we scored from 46.2% of I50 entries.

In 2019 we scored from 38.1% of I50 entries.

This year we have scored from 33.6% of I50 entries. 

Has the quality of forward entries dropped by that much in two years?  Was the loss of Hogan THAT significant?  I'm more inclined to point the finger at a gameplan that encourages a crowded forward 50 and has no way to isolate a forward target and get them an uncontested mark.  As teams figured out just how little danger there is in our attack, they have happily set up to spoil the long bomb and run it out of defence.  West Coast in 2018 showed the world how easy it is to get around us by having their wingers break into space early on the assumption that the ball was going to come out of our forward line with relative ease (again, toothless attack gives them that freedom) and now teams are happy to set up for the rebound 50 with confidence knowing that we simply don't have the capacity to hurt them when they don't commit fully to defending.