Male players may give up cash to fund AFLW pay rises

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,890]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

If I was in charge of the AFL I'd be tempted to scrap the entire comp and bring in 8 new teams (1 per state, Tassie, Geel, 2 in Melbourne, with expansion of 4 Melbourne sides planned for year 3 or 4)

From what I've seen reported, the AFL's original plan was to work towards a national competition by 2020.

In 2017, the competition had 4 Melbourne sides as you are suggesting above.

The competition has been expanded at a faster rate than the AFL expected and individual clubs have pushed for inclusion of their own team into this establishing national competition based on the same principle - both see the inclusion of female teams within their brand as an important part of their social license to operate and a marketing oppertunity.  Once they cottened on, there was no way that clubs like Collingwood and Carlton etc wanted to be excluded from being a part of this market.

I don't think new stand alone franchises would really work for anyone as it wouldn't attract the same media attention that has helped accelerate the growth of participation.  It would be much harder to market a Melbourne Penguins, East Melbourne Kookaburra's women's footy teams than it is when they are attached to existing AFL clubs.  I think it would also be somewhat of a put down to that competition as well to say you can't be part of the established AFL club land until you are playing at a standard deemed skillfully enough for all men to appreciate.  It would be seen as treating women as second class citizens and that ain't going to cut it in 2020.

The early success of the AFLW has been built partly off good will factor and the AFL elite mens comp has reaped the benefits of that good will as well.  For example the good news story of the Daisy comeback created a heap of good exposure for the MFC which has a tangible value to the clubs marketing and image.  But if the AFLW is treated as a token gesture and not genuinely supported by moves such as a rapid the ramp up to women players being paid on an equal basis with men, just watch that good will flip on it's head and become a negative external influence on the game of AFL socially and financially.  You can't pick up one end of a stick without picking up the other.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Supermercado 2,802]

Forget the AFLW debate, what about this:

Quote

For the new CBA starting from 2023, The Age has been told players will ask for quarters to be reduced by several minutes.

Might be a positive for some but won't do much for me. Current game length worth carting myself across town for, less attractive travelling in and out for 90 minutes of game time.

I bet you the AFL will give over to this in a heartbeat in the hope that more people will stay home, the ratings will go up and the next broadcast deal will bring in a motza.

Will also ensure we never lose either of the top two record VFL/AFL losses ?

[Sir Why You Little 37,150]

34 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Nah, I was just making a silly joke. 

So was i MB

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,511]

5 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

AFLW is driving a huge increase in participation at the grass roots level, so that's the new horizons that the AFL is pursuing and achieving at the moment.

Also as a fair portion of the AFL's revenue is derived from female interest in the game, in the current enviroment, don't think it's good practice to upset that portion of the market and at the same time also perhaps an oppertunity to expand that part of the market as it applies to the commercials of the mens game as well.

I do see the AFLW as a complementary addition in these regards and over time moves to equalise the pay of female players as sensible.  Much better the AFL fairly aggressively pursue equal pay timetable on their terms than to have it imposed by outside forces.

That's a really good point you've made there Balls. The new horizons that the AFL are looking towards relate to gender and not geography and both sexes will be the long term beneficiaries. 

[daisycutter 29,743]

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't agree with this. In Ireland the amateur GAA is absolutely an elite game. The Olympics is an elite sporting event that features a number of athletes who aren't full time professionals. The difference between 20 hours of unpaid or lowly paid work a week and 40 hours of highly paid work a week is in the physical performance margins and development of lesser players. 

I

that may be so in ireland. ds, but it is irrelevant here because the aflw has no interest in being an amateur competition

afl(vfl) was amateur too once. but those days are long past and there is no turning back now

[Gunna’s 2,104]

 

It’s a tough conundrum. You won’t ever get an ‘elite’ competition if there isn’t an opportunity (gifhy only had the above field of dreams image). The AFL gambled on the build it and they will come philosophy.
They wouldn’t have a competition without sacrificing something.....

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

2 hours ago, daisycutter said:

that may be so in ireland. ds, but it is irrelevant here because the aflw has no interest in being an amateur competition

afl(vfl) was amateur too once. but those days are long past and there is no turning back now

It's very relevant to your statement that a sport can only be elite by having full time professional footballers. I disagree. I think the 1970's players were just as elite as the 1990's players in the A/VFL. Same with the GAA. 

If you start paying full time professional wages to the current group of women a whole bunch of them would still be miles off what I'd consider an elite athlete judging by skill level, experience and overall talent. The same goes for a few men on our list and certainly across the AFL! 

My personal belief is there won't ever be enough talent nor interest (read; money) to sustain a decent length season with 18 teams of fully professional footballers.

So my focus would be to design the best possible competition for long term success. The sports leagues I'd be copying from would be the recent success of the NBL on the back of a number of high quality teams and strong product and taking the good lessons from the relaunch of the A league before it's all gone to waste by lack of investment, some terrible expansion sides, lack of quality players and most of all absolutely no care for the fans.

Edited February 13, 2020 by DeeSpencer

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

4 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

 

I don't think new stand alone franchises would really work for anyone as it wouldn't attract the same media attention that has helped accelerate the growth of participation.  It would be much harder to market a Melbourne Penguins, East Melbourne Kookaburra's women's footy teams than it is when they are attached to existing AFL clubs.  I think it would also be somewhat of a put down to that competition as well to say you can't be part of the established AFL club land until you are playing at a standard deemed skillfully enough for all men to appreciate.  It would be seen as treating women as second class citizens and that ain't going to cut it in 2020.

 

And an 8 game season, 15 minute quarters, ridiculous conference system, playing in February, finals during the men's season isn't treating the women as second class citizens? 

The current AFLW season seems more like a marketing exercise for the AFL and a select number of moderately famous female players (and their player agents) than a proper footy competition.

Playing for existing AFL clubs gave the women's game a huge boost, that's undeniable, but I just struggle to see the sustainable future of it.

Despite huge investments in almost every possible pathway there's not enough talent for 18 AFL teams and barely enough interest for 10  Victorian teams as is. The best women athletes will be drawn to cricket and basketball just as men are, plus probably a far greater draw from soccer (big money and a prestigious national side), netball, gymnastics, cheer and dance in a million different forms etc.

 

[daisycutter 29,743]

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It's very relevant to your statement that a sport can only be elite by having full time professional footballers. I disagree. I think the 1970's players were just as elite as the 1990's players in the A/VFL. Same with the GAA. 

If you start paying full time professional wages to the current group of women a whole bunch of them would still be miles off what I'd consider an elite athlete judging by skill level, experience and overall talent. The same goes for a few men on our list and certainly across the AFL! 

My personal belief is there won't ever be enough talent nor interest (read; money) to sustain a decent length season with 18 teams of fully professional footballers.

So my focus would be to design the best possible competition for long term success. The sports leagues I'd be copying from would be the recent success of the NBL on the back of a number of high quality teams and strong product and taking the good lessons from the relaunch of the A league before it's all gone to waste by lack of investment, some terrible expansion sides, lack of quality players and most of all absolutely no care for the fans.

ok. ds. I did say " there has to be a transition whereby the comp allows for a living wage by becoming fully professional. Only then can you truly get an elite game"

I agree with you that you don't need to be fully professional to get an elite game. I should reword that last bit to say "Only then will you be able to develop the best quality outcome"

p.s. I know it becomes a bit of a semantic argument but i personally wouldn't describe the current aflw as "elite". I don't mean that as a criticism of the aflw, just an opinion . I'm aware that the aflw is necessarily going through a development process and the ongoing improvement (of individuals) is really apparent and encouraging. It will take time . I'm not convinced the afl has taken the best path so far but i think the die is cast and there is no turning back to a different model.

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

10 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

ok. ds. I did say " there has to be a transition whereby the comp allows for a living wage by becoming fully professional. Only then can you truly get an elite game"

I agree with you that you don't need to be fully professional to get an elite game. I should reword that last bit to say "Only then will you be able to develop the best quality outcome"

p.s. I know it becomes a bit of a semantic argument but i personally wouldn't describe the current aflw as "elite". I don't mean that as a criticism of the aflw, just an opinion . I'm aware that the aflw is necessarily going through a development process and the ongoing improvement (of individuals) is really apparent and encouraging. It will take time . I'm not convinced the afl has taken the best path so far but i think the die is cast and there is no turning back to a different model.

Sounds like we're mostly on the same page. I think the AFL owe it to their fans to support a professional women's league, I just think it should be the highest quality to thrive long term. Certainly agree that it could be like putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

Largely I think sporting administrators go for the short term dollar so much and fail to recognise it's the years of tradition that keep us all coming back. Everyone's loving the short term sugar fix of AFLW and clubs getting women's teams but when that hit fades it won't be a competition that's built dedicated fans from the ground up.

Edited February 13, 2020 by DeeSpencer

[dworship 3,342]

11 hours ago, drdrake said:

Charge admission, the AFL will be losing a bucket on AFLW, it's not cheap to host a game with venue hire, staff, umpires and everything else you need to pay.  Simple solution we have to pay to watch men at both AFL and VFL level, we should have to pay to watch the elite females of the sport and they should get a percentage of the gate receipts.

The AFL is scared as they don't want attendance numbers to drop, if you have a premium product people will pay to watch.  The issue with AFLW is it's not a premium product, the talent pool is way to small to cater for the number of sides in the competition.  It should be 8 sides max and only the elite players get drafted.

Expansion for the sake of expansion doesn't make sense, it killed the mens game for 10 years and the product is still no where near as good. 

I think it's about time the likes of O'Brien catering (O'Brien Group) start sponsoring/ giving back to what has made them skwillions.

[Webber 10,538]

AFLW is going nowhere. Before it’s inception, women’s Australian Rules Football was the fastest growing participant sport in the country, and this participation has exponentially jumped since then. Statistically, no sport has ever experienced an uptake like it. This growth in numbers has in fact been hard to manage for existing ‘men’s’ footy clubs who have created women’s/girls teams. Those who cry ‘not elite’ or ‘could/should be better’ - no kidding, the revolution is in its earliest phases. The AFL’s job here is to facilitate (with $$$) the best pathway and to bankroll the endpoint (most professional) competition so that in however many years, when half the population at least (you know, women) want to watch the AFLW as much as the AFL(M), they’ve managed it progressively to that point. How many stuffups they make along the way, who knows. And despite a certain resistance and disbelief from certain current generations of men (you know who you are) the newer and coming generations of men will be fully on board. Viva la revolution! 

[george_on_the_outer 7,712]

11 minutes ago, Webber said:

AFLW is going nowhere. Before it’s inception, women’s Australian Rules Football was the fastest growing participant sport in the country, and this participation has exponentially jumped since then. Statistically, no sport has ever experienced an uptake like it. This growth in numbers has in fact been hard to manage for existing ‘men’s’ footy clubs who have created women’s/girls teams. Those who cry ‘not elite’ or ‘could/should be better’ - no kidding, the revolution is in its earliest phases. The AFL’s job here is to facilitate (with $$$) the best pathway and to bankroll the endpoint (most professional) competition so that in however many years, when half the population at least (you know, women) want to watch the AFLW as much as the AFL(M), they’ve managed it progressively to that point. How many stuffups they make along the way, who knows. And despite a certain resistance and disbelief from certain current generations of men (you know who you are) the newer and coming generations of men will be fully on board. Viva la revolution! 

Maybe you should say "AFLW is not going away!"

[Mel Bourne 4,534]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think the 1970's players were just as elite as the 1990's players in the A/VFL. 

 

 

Can you hold down a job as a sales rep, smoke cigs, celebrate both wins and losses with a couple of beers and still be considered an elite athlete? 

(absolutely)

[Fork 'em 6,991]

21 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

I mean, to be fair, nobody usually asks for anybody’s opinion on anything around here. 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Fork 'em

[binman 43,822]

Interesting article in the context of the discussion about the next wave of talent coming into AFLW:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-14/the-maddy-prespakis-era-has-arrived-good-news-for-aflw/11964922

[Sir Why You Little 37,150]

41 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

 

Haha ? that’s gold!!!

[Webber 10,538]

33 minutes ago, binman said:

Interesting article in the context of the discussion about the next wave of talent coming into AFLW:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-14/the-maddy-prespakis-era-has-arrived-good-news-for-aflw/11964922

Great example of the professional future of women’s footy. I, for one, can’t wait. Doubles the opportunity for flag success! 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

This thread is going as well as expected.

 

[binman 43,822]

14 minutes ago, Webber said:

Great example of the professional future of women’s footy. I, for one, can’t wait. Doubles the opportunity for flag success! 

True 'nuff. 

I watched the Matildas play China last night. Fantastic stuff. I enjoy watching them more than the soccer roos.

I know they are all the best players in the country so but almost all are playing in the oz WSL, a league tbat must lose money. But like the AFLW is a smart investement.

[JakovichScissorKick 771]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:09 PM, JakovichScissorKick said:

AFL is not for women.

Have a look how many ACL injuries there are.   The only time I ever see a headline for AFLW its yet another chick tearing her knee ligaments.

Like clockwork

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/563933/scans-confirm-acl-injury-for-kemp

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,510]

56 minutes ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

Like clockwork

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/563933/scans-confirm-acl-injury-for-kemp

Ban all the women!

We must stop them playing sport for their own good!!  Someone, please bring them all inside!!

 

 

[binman 43,822]

3 hours ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

Like clockwork

 

You've made my

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DAkmLpTXbNDQ&ved=2ahUKEwjX4cSW7NTnAhUgyDgGHdG5AHUQjjgwCnoECAIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1peaWZYJqsjw9PA11X3oU5

Edited February 16, 2020 by binman

[Rogue 585]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:33 PM, Rab D Nesbitt said:

You have to wonder if the game is finally reaching it's zenith commercially. With little prospect of the competition expanding into new markets domestically, two current markets (GWS & GC) being heavily subsidised and seemingly little appeal overseas to viewers and advertisers (relative to other major codes) it's hard to see where they can go next. The NZ and China experiments tend to attract two guys and a dog which isn't totally surprising when they send some of our poorest performing clubs to showcase the game. Is sending GC to Darwin to play another cellar dweller every year really a good advertisement for our code? AFLW is surely just a teeny part of the overall financial picture at the moment. 

This is why the AFLW is such a shrewd business idea.

Getting more females interested in AFL, which the AFLW is undoubtedly doing, is the easiest market for AFL to expand into - much easier to get Aussie girls and women on board, rather than trying to woo Chinese followers.

AFLW is probably the best marketing money the AFL's ever spent.

(As an aside, I love that Aussie Rules is exploding in popularity amongst female friends of mine who are playing footy for the first time, and some of the stories are great. I also think that the competition has expanded too much too quickly).

[Fork 'em 6,991]

6 hours ago, binman said:

You've made my

 

On the high horse again I see.
Can you give us a .....

https://gph.is/g/46n93kd

Edited February 16, 2020 by Fork 'em