The Co-Captain Model

[sue 9,107]

9 minutes ago, Soprano661 said:

I went fishing but seriously I hate the co captaincy model - I didn’t cancel after 2019 and don’t plan on. 

Damn, there goes our motivation for Round 1.

[picket fence 17,172]

19 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

Apologies for the close proximity of this thread to the “Gawn as co-captain 2020” thread, but I’m more interested here about the concept in general. Just read that GWS have scrapped it and are reverting back to the traditional model. 
 

I’m keen to understand what the genuine benefits are of the co-captain thing. I personally struggle to understand the concept. It seems the potential to cause an imbalance amongst the team is heightened when two players are expected to address the players in huddles/discuss issues with the umpire/talk to the press/communicate the game plan to the other players during match-time. Any disparity between the two captains could easily be the source of confusion and frustration, to a potentially result-altering end. What if the players felt one was clearer than the other? Wiser? More trustworthy? Is the risk of factions forming a hysterical or realistic concern? 
 

Personally, I would like to see MG as the sole captain. But I’m wondering if anybody here can convince me that having two-captains (any two-captains) is a positive thing.
 

 

Two Captains is just sooooo safe. Rubbish concept which beggars belief really!

Gawn Capt

May V C

Harmes DVC

[Skuit 10,031]

17 hours ago, picket fence said:

Two Captains is just sooooo safe. Rubbish concept which beggars belief really!

Gawn Capt

May V C

Harmes DVC

Safe Picket? Wouldn't it be considered innovate if it bucks a century-old custom? 

I really don't intend this to be provocative (and it's not directed at you PF) - but I wonder how many people who feel so strongly about dual captains also feel the same way about single parenting. For such a mundane issue, there's almost something evolutionarily biological in the passion it provokes. 

[picket fence 17,172]

2 hours ago, Skuit said:

Safe Picket? Wouldn't it be considered innovate if it bucks a century-old custom? 

I really don't intend this to be provocative (and it's not directed at you PF) - but I wonder how many people who feel so strongly about dual captains also feel the same way about single parenting. For such a mundane issue, there's almost something evolutionarily biological in the passion it provokes. 

What came first , The chicken or the egg??

Hnmm

I think Safe by Virtue that you hedge your bets because of inability to be decisive! Two captains is not in my view "Decisive"

I think appiont 1 Person , whoever it is then follow with the traditional VC & DVC

Not big on Leadership groups either, Can lead to devisiveness IMV

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Having co-captains is like having co-prime ministers. You have one "prime" minister, the other ministers are the "leadership team".

Co-Popes. Similar deal.

Co-racing car drivers. There's only one steering wheel. (In fact we do see co-drivers at the Bathurst races, but they're not in the car at the same time, and one of them is very definitely the "prime" driver.)

Because of human nature, your co-captains will not be equal in all facets. And one of them will be seen as the "chief" captain and the other as the "second in authority" captain. It's just the way our hierarchical primate nature works. But then in a team environment you will have some players who see co-captain A as the "chief" captain, and others who will see co-captain B as the "chief". Not a good recipe for a high level team sport where everyone is supposed to be driving relentlessly towards an identical goal.

[Diamond_Jim 12,592]

57 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Having co-captains is like having co-prime ministers. You have one "prime" minister, the other ministers are the "leadership team".

Co-Popes. Similar deal.

Co-racing car drivers. There's only one steering wheel. (In fact we do see co-drivers at the Bathurst races, but they're not in the car at the same time, and one of them is very definitely the "prime" driver.)

Because of human nature, your co-captains will not be equal in all facets. And one of them will be seen as the "chief" captain and the other as the "second in authority" captain. It's just the way our hierarchical primate nature works. But then in a team environment you will have some players who see co-captain A as the "chief" captain, and others who will see co-captain B as the "chief". Not a good recipe for a high level team sport where everyone is supposed to be driving relentlessly towards an identical goal.

Co-emperors usually didn't end well in Roman times.

On a more serious note your excellent examples do not perhaps reflect the roles of an AFL captain. What if any power do they wield. I would suggest very little unlike your examples all of which directly influence outcomes.

The comparative weakness of the captaincy system can perhaps be seen in the Essendon drugs scandal and to a lesser extent in the camp debacles suffered both by the Crows and the MFC.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

21 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

On a more serious note your excellent examples do not perhaps reflect the roles of an AFL captain. What if any power do they wield. I would suggest very little unlike your examples all of which directly influence outcomes.

Yes, I accept that. It's really the coaches who wield the power. But I do think that footballers, early in their careers at least, see the coaches as "teachers", as in "like when we wuz at school" and are authority figures not quite trusted as much as a  captain who is "one of the boys and just like us".

We can analogise this to death, with comparisons to politics, business, etc, and nothing quite compares to a sports team.

 

21 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

The comparative weakness of the captaincy system can perhaps be seen in the Essendon drugs scandal and to a lesser extent in the camp debacles suffered both by the Crows and the MFC.

No-one/nothing is perfect. Having a captain doesn't exempt from c*ck-ups. There have been bad emperors, kings, popes, prime ministers, businessmen, CEOs, coaches, football players and milk bar proprietors. All just part of the business of being a human being on this spinning rock.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Sometimes change is good, sometimes it's completely useless, unecessary and done for the sake of doing or to follow the heard.  Co-Captain nonsense falls into the latter. 

The old Captain / VC model was working fine.

Max walks the walk and talks the talk.  The easiest selection (Max) and decision (scrapping the Co-Captain rubbish) Goody will probably ever have to make.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[Demonstone 22,569]

8 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

follow the heard. 

I herd James Hird say the same thing.

[Lucifers Hero 39,870]

Port have dumped the 'co-captain' model making Jonas the sole captain.  Wines was injured pre-season and never got going with a few stints in the reserves.  Then at the end of the year there was a bit of talk that he wanted a trade.  Without the captaincy it gives Ollie a chance to find his best form again.  Maybe with a few more years of maturity he gets another go.

It will be interesting to see if we continue with two or or just one captain and if the latter who it will be.  Port have given us a blue print if the club wants go sole cap with Max.  Like Wines, Viney is the tough mid field, lead from the front guy but again like Wines he could benefit from concentrating on his body and his game.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Lucifer's Hero

[Demonland 72,217]

 

[Demonland 72,217]

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

19 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

Hopefully sanity can prevail soon and we can have 1 Captain who leads a bunch of talented boys who know their jobs, and know when to react. 

[old55 23,609]

There's a hell of a lot more load on the Captain these days than in the past and sharing that load has merit.  Captain is not just about internal football leadership, there are big media and sponsorship commitments too.

[Nasher 33,616]

Goes in the same basket as player salaries for me. Got no idea how you can assess it from the outside and therefore don’t know why anyone cares.

[DeeSpencer 25,717]

8 hours ago, Demonland said:

 

1 of those clubs was the Giants that played in the Grand Final and then changed models because it was time for a freshen up not due to results.

The other 6 were Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Adelaide, Sydney, Carlton and the Gold Coast. I don't think captaincy played any part in Sydney, Carlton or Gold Coast's results.

The two South Australian teams seemed to have changed to decisions they should've made in the first place. At the Crows having Sloane take over solo from Walker was logical. And Jonas really should've had the gig without Wines, that was a strange decision to begin with but now it raises the question of whether they should've stuck by it given they made it.

Carlton have a great pair of captains and the Swans have a model that works very well for themselves.

We shouldn't make decisions based on what other clubs are doing, it's a matter of deciding what we need.

[DeeSpencer 25,717]

I think we made an error not going to Viney and Gawn last year. Jones was clearly over the hump of performing as an on field leader and his best leadership was his on field drive.

I'd be happy with Viney and Gawn. Viney has done the apprenticeship  and might finally have his body right. I still think he has the right on field traits and off field drive to lead the club. Gawn is clearly impressive on field and speaks with passion off field. Why would one of them be stronger without the other?

It's a coach driven sport, not one where any player alone can make a huge impact on games to anywhere near the extent of the coaches. 

If you divide the duties that really aren't that important to team performance - media, sponsors, appearances - then you double the amount of time available for your captain to do the things that do matter

[Demonland 72,217]

Team photos today. Should we be expecting a Captaincy announcement soon?

 

[Demonland 72,217]

From the Demons instastory. 

 Looks like Max sitting next to the coach. 

[Demonland 72,217]

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

Having co-captains is a poor compromise because the club is too weak to impose a strong leadership. It filters down. Name the captain and that’s it. No ifs or buts. It’s not a novel experiment anymore as when Roos first did it.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

37 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 looks like Viney sitting next to the coach to me.

[Demonland 72,217]

Just now, drysdale demon said:

 looks like Viney sitting next to the coach to me.

That photo was with one of the "civilians" who got to have a photo with the team today.

Take him out and Max is sitting next to the coach.

Either Co-Captain or Vice.

Doubt he is sole captain.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

2 minutes ago, Demonland said:

That photo was with one of the "civilians" who got to have a photo with the team today.

Take him out and Max is sitting next to the coach.

Either Co-Captain or Vice.

Doubt he is sole captain.

I would say Co-Captain, I was trying to figure out who that other fella was.

[Demonland 72,217]

Sitting next to the coach here.