That is our record against top 8 sides during H&A over the last two seasons. Only one other team hasn't won against a top 8 side this year. I'm sure you can guess which team it is.

What do we put this down to? Inexperience? Coaching? Luck (or lack thereof) of the draw? Culture? This is over two years. Not just this year.

The more we see, the more reality starts to hit home.

What does this club stand for?

I've not pondered that question since round 2, 2013.

Here we are, six years on.

I blame Watts

Hawks, GWS, Geelong, Eagles = 4 top 8 sides last season but knock yourself out to suit your argument 

Not to mention the Crows were in the 8 when we pantsed them in the NT last season 

FMD the sky is falling 

 

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:02, beelzebub said:

I blame Watts

I blame the camp

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:07, Pennant St Dee said:

Hawks, GWS, Geelong, Eagles = 4 top 8 sides last season but knock yourself out to suit your argument 

Not to mention the Crows were in the 8 when we pantsed them in the NT last season 

FMD the sky is falling 

 

Did you miss H/A ?? 

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:07, Pennant St Dee said:

Hawks, GWS, Geelong, Eagles = 4 top 8 sides last season but knock yourself out to suit your argument 

Not to mention the Crows were in the 8 when we pantsed them in the NT last season 

FMD the sky is falling 

 

The only sides that were top 8 during H&A when we beat them were GWS and WC. 

In what world are you living in that any half decent side is even remotely relevant without beating good teams?

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:17, praha said:

The only sides that were top 8 during H&A when we beat them were GWS and WC. 

In what world are you living in that any half decent side is even remotely relevant without beating good teams?

If that's your standard then we have one of those wins this year - Fremantle.

And as to your second line, what about Collingwood last year, who finished the H&A season with one win over last year's finalists (us)?

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:17, praha said:

The only sides that were top 8 during H&A when we beat them were GWS and WC. 

In what world are you living in that any half decent side is even remotely relevant without beating good teams?

Keep digging you may find the reason we're no good, this year

Seriously we beat the same amount of Top 8 sides or more in the proceeding years does that mean we we're a better side in those years.

We must have been a gun side in 2010 being a dropped Ricky Petterd mark away from a win and a draw against the Premiers.

Apples and oranges 

don't you just love the smell of a masochist in the evening just before turning in for the night............jaizus

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:32, Pennant St Dee said:

Keep digging you may find the reason we're no good, this year

Seriously we beat the same amount of Top 8 sides or more in the proceeding years does that mean we we're a better side in those years.

We must have been a gun side in 2010 being a dropped Ricky Petterd mark away from a win and a draw against the Premiers.

Apples and oranges 

Yummy yummy Fruit salad

Seriously  Pen St D , what's  your out for this year 

Think carefully 

  On 17/07/2019 at 11:58, praha said:

What does this club stand for?

What does this even mean?

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:10, beelzebub said:

Did you miss H/A ?? 

So H&A wins count but wins in September don't? What stupid criteria.

  On 17/07/2019 at 13:01, Dr. Gonzo said:

What does this even mean?

So H&A wins count but wins in September don't? What stupid criteria.

Lol

Mate the context of the Op was we'd  beaten f all in the top 8 h/a  simples

We hadnt

We all got very giddy and blousey  winninf a few on the trot when Sim9n said engage hyperdrive. ..until we died

Reality  sucks doesnt it

 

  On 17/07/2019 at 13:04, beelzebub said:

Lol

Mate the context of the Op was we'd  beaten f all in the top 8 h/a  simples

We hadnt

We all got very giddy and blousey  winninf a few on the trot when Sim9n said engage hyperdrive. ..until we died

Reality  sucks doesnt it

 

The context of the op was designed to suit his own woe is me agenda. We've been [censored] this year, no one is denying it. But that doesn't take away from the success we had last year regardless of your own personal hatred towards Goodwin.

  On 17/07/2019 at 12:51, beelzebub said:

Yummy yummy Fruit salad

Seriously  Pen St D , what's  your out for this year 

Think carefully 

Think carefully ffs, I think I understand football a little

I'm not happy with this year, it's a combination of things, not just a bad coach, a poor fitnees regime and is certainly nothing to do with Jackson or Roos not being around.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater yet, many lessons should have been learned, I've seen changes in the game plan but mid season it's difficult to change and when the players are put under pressure they resort back to old habits, that will come with experience learning to deal with pressure and adapt to slight  changes in game plan week to week

Overall where do we start

Under done players

Satisfied players after improvement each year, becoming content with themselves 

Out of form players

A game plan that once tweaked a little IMO will stand up with seasoned bodies but we ain't there yet

Goody is also guilty of the above and like the players needs to learn from this 

Many of our players have been emotionally shot since round 4ish, they are bereft of confidence, not prepared to take responsibility. overhandballing when gettable chances to score or hit up a teammate present themselves.

Big off season ahead for many

Another Demonland nothingburger takes shape.

Everyone calm tf down.

An interesting if concerning stat, is all. 

Collingwood struggled last year against top 8 sides but has shown a trend it is not. 

We've been consistently poor against top 8 sides during the season. It hurts us. It impacted our ability to snag the double chance last year.

How do we fix it? What do we do? Where is it going wrong? Is it a quick fix?

Instead of attacking each other for simply posting an opinion, engage and contribute. We're in this together.

@praha Nothing is a quick fix at Melbourne. 

  On 17/07/2019 at 20:31, praha said:

Everyone calm tf down.

An interesting if concerning stat, is all. 

Collingwood struggled last year against top 8 sides but has shown a trend it is not. 

We've been consistently poor against top 8 sides during the season. It hurts us. It impacted our ability to snag the double chance last year.

How do we fix it? What do we do? Where is it going wrong? Is it a quick fix?

Instead of attacking each other for simply posting an opinion, engage and contribute. We're in this together.

Fair call, but I think alot of us are over the pepetual pessimism and self flagellation (well maybe not all on this last part).  It's bad enough watching the teams performances this season without having to convince ourselves that we are even more pathetic an unworthy of last year's finals apperance.

I do think the question was framed in the most negative way possible though and it's not such a simple issue.  Should beating Geelong and Hawthorn in finals be counted because they were games against top 8 sides or should they be discounted, because although they made finals, they turned out to be pretty meek opponents on the day(night).  Likewise while Adelaide were technically top 8 when we played them (thumped them) perhaps that too was artificial as they turned out to have a stinker of a season, somewhat helped by what we started.  Do we actually discount the West Coast win because they were down some of their stars  (Kenedy and Darling mid game, although we were also down Hogan).   For me the GWS game was probably the highlight, with two in form teams pushing for the best top 8 position and we beat them convincingly.

I do think that last season we turned one corner in mental maturity, but consistently beating the teams below us that we should have beaten, but that in previous years we would have lost to via a combination of complacency, lapses in intensity/concentration and then shittting our pants when the came at us.  Winning all those games against the lesser sides was what mostly got us to finals. 

I think this year we have succumbed to a combination of injuries, mental/emotional fatigue,  game plan and lack of maturity.  We really need the offseason to reset those things.  Moving forward next season, I think we do need to go through that next phase in our development of beating the genuine top 8 sides.  I think this has to come with a further maturing of mental application.  I think we have both a lack of confidence, of being able to produce sustained effort in games and being able to sense when to attack and defend against the mature sides.  Last season for instance, we absolutely smashed Hawthorn in the first quarter of the home and away, but then gave back that lead far too easily and in the end let them play all over us, when we dropped our heads completely and they asserted their dominance.  Part of that all was lack of defensive effort, but part of it I think was us also being overawed by the team and the situation.  I suspect that it works both ways too, in so far as genuine teams have a sense that we are gettable even when they are being beaten and that keeps them mentally in the game and/or in a position to exploit it if they get on top. 

This is the sort of leadership issue that having someone like Lewis around should have addressed, but our players now need reconise it for themselves, step up and make the changes within themselves over the seasons ahead.  I don't think it is something that Goodwin can significantly influence as these swings within games that we need to address happen within quarters when the coaches now have very little chance of addressing via the runner.

  On 17/07/2019 at 21:20, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Fair call, but I think alot of us are over the pepetual pessimism and self flagellation (well maybe not all on this last part).  It's bad enough watching the teams performances this season without having to convince ourselves that we are even more pathetic an unworthy of last year's finals apperance.

I do think the question was framed in the most negative way possible though and it's not such a simple issue.  Should beating Geelong and Hawthorn in finals be counted because they were games against top 8 sides or should they be discounted, because although they made finals, they turned out to be pretty meek opponents on the day(night).  Likewise while Adelaide were technically top 8 when we played them (thumped them) perhaps that too was artificial as they turned out to have a stinker of a season, somewhat helped by what we started.  Do we actually discount the West Coast win because they were down some of their stars  (Kenedy and Darling mid game, although we were also down Hogan).   For me the GWS game was probably the highlight, with two in form teams pushing for the best top 8 position and we beat them convincingly.

I do think that last season we turned one corner in mental maturity, but consistently beating the teams below us that we should have beaten, but that in previous years we would have lost to via a combination of complacency, lapses in intensity/concentration and then shittting our pants when the came at us.  Winning all those games against the lesser sides was what mostly got us to finals. 

I think this year we have succumbed to a combination of injuries, mental/emotional fatigue,  game plan and lack of maturity.  We really need the offseason to reset those things.  Moving forward next season, I think we do need to go through that next phase in our development of beating the genuine top 8 sides.  I think this has to come with a further maturing of mental application.  I think we have both a lack of confidence, of being able to produce sustained effort in games and being able to sense when to attack and defend against the mature sides.  Last season for instance, we absolutely smashed Hawthorn in the first quarter of the home and away, but then gave back that lead far too easily and in the end let them play all over us, when we dropped our heads completely and they asserted their dominance.  Part of that all was lack of defensive effort, but part of it I think was us also being overawed by the team and the situation.  I suspect that it works both ways too, in so far as genuine teams have a sense that we are gettable even when they are being beaten and that keeps them mentally in the game and/or in a position to exploit it if they get on top. 

This is the sort of leadership issue that having someone like Lewis around should have addressed, but our players now need reconise it for themselves, step up and make the changes within themselves over the seasons ahead.  I don't think it is something that Goodwin can significantly influence as these swings within games that we need to address happen within quarters when the coaches now have very little chance of addressing via the runner.

I think it reflects a gap in maturity skill and leadership as you allude to. The gap between 1-4 teams and 5-8 is fairly big, but even larger 9-12 and 13 below. We don't discount WC and GWS wins, they were well coached and played matches. But even as Goodwin has mentioned we were a young team on a roll. My intent is not to dilute last year's finals as merely a flash in the pan. Rather my intent is to highlight that, to be consistantly good, you need to consistently beat good teams. So it started as a concerning albeit afterthought stat. But this year shows it is a trend. 

  On 17/07/2019 at 20:16, bing181 said:

Another Demonland nothingburger takes shape.

And this thread is even better with popcorn.

I BLAME THE TACKLING

THERE IS TOO MUCH TACKLING

CUT TEH TACKLING TO FIX THING (this is the RBA's modus operandi, oooh, burn!)

  On 17/07/2019 at 20:31, praha said:

Everyone calm tf down.

An interesting if concerning stat, is all. 

Collingwood struggled last year against top 8 sides but has shown a trend it is not. 

We've been consistently poor against top 8 sides during the season. It hurts us. It impacted our ability to snag the double chance last year.

How do we fix it? What do we do? Where is it going wrong? Is it a quick fix?

Instead of attacking each other for simply posting an opinion, engage and contribute. We're in this together.

The only thing that stopped us getting the double chance last year was our 2x games vs Geelong. We lost both on (or close to) the siren. It sucks but if those games go our way, were top 4.

  On 18/07/2019 at 00:12, Dr. Gonzo said:

The only thing that stopped us getting the double chance last year was our 2x games vs Geelong. We lost both on (or close to) the siren. It sucks but if those games go our way, were top 4.

The saints game we dropped at the G cost us also.

Yes, but how many games did we win playing clubs with an animal mascot by 6 goals or less on a Sunday???

FMD....

David King also brought up those stats last night on AFL 360.

Hard to argue with them, and hard to see us being anything more than a 7th-10th side next year if we do have a bounce back year.