POSTGAME: Rd16 vs Carlton

[binman 42,941]

18 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

So it's entirely feasible to critique the teams performance and be happy to win at the same time. 

 

Of course it is. As i pointed out myself. And personally as i do all rbe time ie critique performance as per my many comments about our woeful kicking skills. 

To be honest I haven't read any posts on this thread tbat are only over the top positive.  But as usual many posts where the opposite is true.

[beelzebub 23,370]

I always find the sentiments of supporters fascinating, win lose or draw. I suppose the stance many assume comes from the furphy that a glass 50% filled  is somehow only half full ...or half empty. Upon these views somehow dictates where your 'allegiance' lays.  It's a crock. A glass 50% filled is just that..50% filled. One might reasonably argue if it was full and now only 50% then it's now half empty as that was the momentum of events. Conversely..an empty glass filling is half full if thats the direction of events.

What say of all of this..Simple. It's neither all of one thing nor the other. Being critical of our play ..indeed anything to do with this club does NOT preclude one from being able to enjoy a win. It simply means some are far more encompassing of larger pictures than those that might live vicariously in the moment. Neither is more right than the other. They are opinions, perspectives, call them what you like.

It was definitely better to win than to lose  but like some others here it all feels very hollow. Again we did our very best collectively to snag a loss from the jaws of victory. How excited anyone becomes from kicking but ONE goal in the final term I don't know. Where would all the sky punching be had we not managed that I wonder ?

The tempo was arguably different yesterday. That's good. I wonder too just how much by design and how much by forced circumstances. Either way there were lessons there to be observed. Yesterdays game reminded me of two elevators travelling in opposite directions. They up and we down...somehow we just managed to be on top at the right moment. We almost weren't.

Our skills are not as a team AFL standard. We do have a handful of very good players, but they alone dont make a Winter..so to speak. Our game plan...do we really even have one ?  is predictable and negatable.

You really have to wonder why it's taken so long to get Preuss on the big-park. That we're only now supposedly considering both he and Max is laughable. Yesterday was a bit like playing musical chairs...had there been a couple more notes maybe the tone here would be a little more sombre.

Some are easily pleased.

[Macca 16,967]

17 minutes ago, Kent said:

Agree completely Macca.

Loved  the win, game   almost unwatchable at the ground 

People around me were laughing at the poor skills on display all game so I can be a lil negative about  that.

So who is available  to poach in he off season? I aways thought Finlayson was a chance but I believe he has resigned. Any suggestions out  there?

I'm out of the loop a bit with KPF prospects ... drafting an 18 year old is fraught with danger so you almost have to draft 2 to find 1.

Or you swap a top end pick for a proven performer.  And that's paying a bargain price as clubs generally do not like parting ways with proven KPF's.  So we might have to pay extras.

Or a free agent ... again,  you've got to get in real early as clubs are securing talent on long term deals.  It isn't easy but if our trading is aggressive enough,  you'll get what you need (as opposed to getting what you want)

And what does the club want to do anyway?  They might be happy with how things are developing.  Our midfielders need to hit the scoreboard more often also. 

[Fork 'em 6,983]

31 minutes ago, Macca said:

We're all different Binman so we all see things differently. 

 

Ahhh .... But if your opinion differs to his you'll cop a lecture from the high horse.

[Macca 16,967]

Just now, Fork 'em said:

Ahhh .... But if your opinion differs to his you'll cop a lecture from the high horse.

Comes with the territory and it works both ways ... the optimists cop it here as well.  Often labelled as apologists.

Try being a realist ... you'll cop it from all quarters! 

If we had have lost yesterday it would have been bad news for the club.  As it stands we still need a few more wins to salvage the season.  Wins do matter. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

Listening to both Tom McDonald and Bailey Fritsch on radio this morning was interesting. 

We were down to 2 rotations from half time, then 1 by 3/4 time, with 9 rotations in the last quarter   

Taking that info into account I am happy we scrapped a win

TMac won’t play again this year, so it may well have been our last win for the year...

[Macca 16,967]

A positive is that we get to see Preuss at work for the rest of the season (unless we somehow don't)

Working in tandem with Gawn,  they'll both play forward periodically in the absence of T-Mac. Neither are easy match-ups forward so that's another positive.

And if it works well we can win a few more games this year whilst serving as a real option for next season. 

Jones was good again ... that's 3 decent games in a row off half-back.  Freed up,  he'll relish it back there whilst his fitness holds up.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Macca

[Nasher 33,616]

58 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

It was definitely better to win than to lose  but like some others here it all feels very hollow. Again we did our very best collectively to snag a loss from the jaws of victory. How excited anyone becomes from kicking but ONE goal in the final term I don't know. Where would all the sky punching be had we not managed that I wonder 

I think whether a victory feels hollow or enjoyable depends entirely on where you calibrate your expectations. I get accused of being a happy clapper on here, but at the commencement of the last quarter I went severely pessimistic and set my expectations very low. I watched on TV, and the first thing they showed us on return from the break was TMac sitting in the dugout with Hore and Petty with ice strapped on the knee. It may not have been as obvious from the ground that he was out.

With one on the bench and our goal kicker out, despite the margin I was fully expecting us to get overrun. It would take an immense effort to win, I was thinking. The fact that it’s rubbish old Carlton is irrelevant, the margin in AFL is too small to not be impacted by this type of handicap. Even when we managed to lurch forward, it looked slow and listless. Skills went out the window. These are all things that are 100% predictable when you’re so down on legs, to expect anything more is just unreasonable and unrealistic.

So you might understand that when I had emotionally prepared myself for the worst,   my happiness went through the roof when it didn’t happen. They showed the effort that I thought it would take. I was pleased that they did. It was always going to be hard, but they did it. Yay! There were a few players who put in Herculean efforts. 

Sorry for being easily pleased. I’d say I’d prefer to feel bitter and twisted about a W in the column as some are, but that would be a total lie.

Like everyone else, I’m totally shat at how this season has gone. It’s been a total and utter waste. From a totality point of view, the season has been a train wreck. I’m not going to allow that to deprive myself of individual moments of joy though. Nice things can happen in a crap situation. I’m going to enjoy them when they do.

[Ugottobekidding 1,186]

We wwwww won. Most teams make lots of mistakes with the ball. Just the way AFL has gone.

[binman 42,941]

48 minutes ago, Macca said:

Comes with the territory and it works both ways ... the optimists cop it here as well.  Often labelled as apologists.

Try being a realist ... you'll cop it from all quarters! 

If we had have lost yesterday it would have been bad news for the club.  As it stands we still need a few more wins to salvage the season.  Wins do matter. 

That's funny Macca. I know you weren't talking about me specifically but I would say I'm a realist, not an optimist.

Take my perspective on yesterday. Our skills were st times horrible. One again we failed to put a team away due to missing easy shots on goals and targets. As i have said many times It is a huge issue for our club and one that has no easy fix.

But we were almost 100 points at 3/4 time. Yes against a lowly side but we are also lowly side as a result of injuries and a woeful preseason. They were missing their best player, but so were we. We had patches of terrific play and our best forward snagged a career equalling high of 6 goals.

And we were down to 1 rotation for almost half the game, with our best forward and two defenders sitting  on the pine. Brayshaw said he had never been more exhausted in a game of footy. Jones did not come off tbe ground at all in the second half.We got headed but found a way to win. With  a set shot from near 50 no less. Which is character building. And we walk away with 4 points.

Edited July 8, 2019 by binman

[jules7 792]

45 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I think whether a victory feels hollow or enjoyable depends entirely on where you calibrate your expectations. I get accused of being a happy clapper on here, but at the commencement of the last quarter I went severely pessimistic and set my expectations very low. I watched on TV, and the first thing they showed us on return from the break was TMac sitting in the dugout with Hore and Petty with ice strapped on the knee. It may not have been as obvious from the ground that he was out.

With one on the bench and our goal kicker out, despite the margin I was fully expecting us to get overrun. It would take an immense effort to win, I was thinking. The fact that it’s rubbish old Carlton is irrelevant, the margin in AFL is too small to not be impacted by this type of handicap. Even when we managed to lurch forward, it looked slow and listless. Skills went out the window. These are all things that are 100% predictable when you’re so down on legs, to expect anything more is just unreasonable and unrealistic.

So you might understand that when I had emotionally prepared myself for the worst,   my happiness went through the roof when it didn’t happen. They showed the effort that I thought it would take. I was pleased that they did. It was always going to be hard, but they did it. Yay! There were a few players who put in Herculean efforts. 

Sorry for being easily pleased. I’d say I’d prefer to feel bitter and twisted about a W in the column as some are, but that would be a total lie.

Like everyone else, I’m totally shat at how this season has gone. It’s been a total and utter waste. From a totality point of view, the season has been a train wreck. I’m not going to allow that to deprive myself of individual moments of joy though. Nice things can happen in a crap situation. I’m going to enjoy them when they do.

It was a fantastic win, like everyone else I thought we were going to loose, but the players dug deep and pulled off a gusty win..  All the Carlton supporters around us were going off their nuts in the final quarter, and it was wonderful to silence their feral crowd, and walk away with the four points. 

[Macca 16,967]

43 minutes ago, binman said:

That's funny Macca. I know you weren't talking about me specifically but I would say I'm a realist, not an optimist.

Take my perspective on yesterday. Our skills were st times horrible. One again we failed to put a team away due to missing easy shots on goals and targets. As i have said many times It is a huge issue for our club and one that has no easy fix.

But we were almost 100 points at 3/4 time. Yes against a lowly side but we are also lowly side as a result of injuries and a woeful preseason. They were missing their best player, but so were we. We had patches of terrific play and our best forward snagged a career equalling high of 6 goals.

And we were down to 1 rotation for almost half the game, with our best forward and two defenders sitting  on the pine. Brayshaw said he had never been more exhausted in a game of footy. Jones did not come off tbe ground at all in the second half.We got headed but found a way to win. With  a set shot from near 50 no less. Which is character building. And we walk away with 4 points.

And there are degrees of realism mixrd in with pessimism & optimism for those who like to class thrmselves as realistic supporters.  You've got to have a bit of hope otherwise misery can rule.

True realists hate the bs ... for instance,  any punter who isn't a realist will lose.  And as Demon supporters we are invested which could also be described as a gamble. 

[jnrmac 20,061]

I'd say many here could see how the game would pan out after we were almost double their possession tally (220ish to 120ish I think in the 3rd qtr) and only 22 pts ahead.

Not that you could predict the injury tally but hardly surprised that a lowly ranked team we hadn't put away would rally to take the lead in the closing stages. This is what calibrated expectations and why some weren't jumping through hoops over the win.

Its all so predictable with this team. If there is a way to snatch defeat from victory they will try to find a way

 

[Diamond_Jim 12,585]

Must say I'm surprised a little by those who think Preuss is a forward. Sure a goal or two every couple of games but no more than a 17-20 goal a year man.

Gawn is the key... Preuss to ruck 70/30 and Gawn to play forward 70/30%. Gawn is a potential 4 goal a game player.

[monoccular 17,428]

17 hours ago, markc said:

im guessing this was in the last quarter and the player was Brayshaw , I am wondered why  a score review wasn't  asked for, the commentators suggested Brayshaw claimed a goal ?? anyone see this ?  was it or wasn't it ? 

 

 

5 hours ago, samcantstandya said:

Don't mean to be too critical but Hannan could've sealed the game by instead of having a bomb that just fell short he could've handballed the ball over the top to Brayshaw who was in the clear. Btw I reckon Gus got to it first & was denied the winner. That was def a review that should've been called.

A score review, if deemed a goal, would have guaranteed a MFC win with a minute or less to go.  

Clearly the instructions were to keep the result open. 

Surely the footage is available somewhere and should be reviewed to “ensure the integrity of the game”. ???

[old dee 23,790]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

I'm out of the loop a bit with KPF prospects ... drafting an 18 year old is fraught with danger so you almost have to draft 2 to find 1.

Or you swap a top end pick for a proven performer.  And that's paying a bargain price as clubs generally do not like parting ways with proven KPF's.  So we might have to pay extras.

Or a free agent ... again,  you've got to get in real early as clubs are securing talent on long term deals.  It isn't easy but if our trading is aggressive enough,  you'll get what you need (as opposed to getting what you want)

And what does the club want to do anyway?  They might be happy with how things are developing.  Our midfielders need to hit the scoreboard more often also. 

I would think the ratio is draft 3 to get one Macca.

[old dee 23,790]

4 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Must say I'm surprised a little by those who think Preuss is a forward. Sure a goal or two every couple of games but no more than a 17-20 goal a year man.

Gawn is the key... Preuss to ruck 70/30 and Gawn to play forward 70/30%. Gawn is a potential 4 goal a game player.

Your confidence in Gawns  kicking for goal is way higher than mine DJ. Last year he should have won the game against the Cats from 30 metres and barely got a point. Then this year he should have goaled  from a similar spot and missed then the Weid got all the crictism for missing a similar one a bit later.  Two a game I think is the absolute ( excuse the pun) max.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

10 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Must say I'm surprised a little by those who think Preuss is a forward. Sure a goal or two every couple of games but no more than a 17-20 goal a year man.

Gawn is the key... Preuss to ruck 70/30 and Gawn to play forward 70/30%. Gawn is a potential 4 goal a game player.

Gawn is a generational quality ruckman. He plays the 70% ruck time. We don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul. Leave the big man in the middle to do what he does best. Then we just have to make do with Pruess forward. We can experiment with Max forward at times but as OD just pointed out, Max is a near 0 set shot reliability. 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,824]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

A positive is that we get to see Preuss at work for the rest of the season (unless we somehow don't)

Working in tandem with Gawn,  they'll both play forward periodically in the absence of T-Mac. Neither are easy match-ups forward so that's another positive.

And if it works well we can win a few more games this year whilst serving as a real option for next season. 

Jones was good again ... that's 3 decent games in a row off half-back.  Freed up,  he'll relish it back there whilst his fitness holds up.

 

30 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Must say I'm surprised a little by those who think Preuss is a forward. Sure a goal or two every couple of games but no more than a 17-20 goal a year man.

Gawn is the key... Preuss to ruck 70/30 and Gawn to play forward 70/30%. Gawn is a potential 4 goal a game player.

Preuss has probably averaged around 2 goals per game as a forwad/ruck at AFL level, so I'd say he's quite a capable forward.

I agree that playing Preuss 70/30 ruck and the inverse for Gawn would be a great developmental move over the rest of the season so they both get what they need with what remains of a dead rubber of a back end of our season.  Surely it has to be more valuable for Pruess to be rucking against AFL standard players and adjusting to the associated pressure at senior level than running around in the twos.

Gawn should just permanently sit himself in that 15m - 25m range out form goal, take grabs galore and have real set shot practice from that position to the point where it no longer represents a mental hoodo for him.  The big fella is actually a pretty dam good kick of the footy and a decient set shot for goal from the 40m to 50m range - just needs to get his head and technique right for kicking them from giveme range.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Diamond_Jim 12,585]

7 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Preuss has probably averaged around 2 goals per game as a forwad/ruck at AFL level, so I'd say he's quite a capable forward

He's kicked 9 goals 6 behinds in his 11 games of senior football.

In his three matches for Melbourne he has kicked three goals.

Gawn is way more mobile and that is why he may make the better forward.

Ruckwork is way over rated. It's all about halving the contest. If having a good ruck were all that important we would be top 4 and dominate clearances which we don't.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[Diamond_Jim 12,585]

31 minutes ago, old dee said:

Your confidence in Gawns  kicking for goal is way higher than mine DJ. Last year he should have won the game against the Cats from 30 metres and barely got a point. Then this year he should have goaled  from a similar spot and missed then the Weid got all the crictism for missing a similar one a bit later.  Two a game I think is the absolute ( excuse the pun) max.

In 2017 he was very reliable if I recall as in previous years.

He just got the yips one year in advance of the rest of the team.

I am still trying to work out how both Tom Mac and Weid missed everything from around 25-30 metres out.. and of course Petracca

Edited July 8, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,824]

7 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

He's kicked 9 goals 6 behinds in his 11 games of senior football.

In his three matches for Melbourne he has kicked three goals.

Gawn is way more mobile and that is why he may make the better forward.

Ruckwork is way over rated. It's all about halving the contest. If having a good ruck were all that important we would be top 4 and dominate clearances which we don't.

Correction - in his 2 games playing predominantly forward for the MFC, he has kicked 4 goals, an average of 2 per game which is pretty decient by AFL standards.  Mind you it's also a pretty small sample size and he was also the 3rd KPP forward behind T Mac and Weid.

[Macca 16,967]

Because Pruess is likely to play we may as well crash-course him on how to play forward and how to mark a ball (positioning himself as part of it all)

He's a big unit so he's got that on his side ... he just needs to coached into being able to play AFL.

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

50 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Gawn is a generational quality ruckman. He plays the 70% ruck time. We don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul. Leave the big man in the middle to do what he does best. Then we just have to make do with Pruess forward. We can experiment with Max forward at times but as OD just pointed out, Max is a near 0 set shot reliability. 

This is exactly why Preuss hasn't been getting a game. While he's had a couple of games where he kicked 2 goals, by and large he wasn't great beyond that. What I'd like them to do is to have a plan B if playing Pruess as a forward isn't working, to maybe play Gawn as a backman, with one of May, Frost or even OMac (if picked to replace Petty) swung forward when Preuss goes into the ruck. There is no rule that a resting ruck has to play forward and we all know Max is a great contested mark and very intimidating presence when he positions himself a kick/kick and half down the line when the opposition are coming out of their backline.  

[Percy Beames 69]

Crikey what a thriller. It’s always good for the soul to beat one of the old enemies. Almost as bad as Collingwood, that Carlton mob. Won a lot of premierships early in the game and reckoned they were better than everyone else even back in the Thirties when they hardly won anything.

I’ve dusted off the old Underwood since I am very unhappy with what I read on Demonland last night. I would have written earlier but I had a couple of Abott’s Lager bottles to finish off. A few of the Melbourne boys worked at the brewery and I always like to support them by drinking their product.

What is it with the negative nellies complaining about beating Carlton. From what I see only some chap calls himself Wiseblood, and another fella Nasher seem to get it. This was what we in the newspaper trade used to call a “meritorious victory”. Good word that, meritorious. Look it up if you don’t know it. That’s what dictionaries are for.

The way I saw it the Melbourne boys were set for a 50-point win until fate took a hand. Even without young Hore, who has just about inked in his name on the team sheet this season, the backline was standing up. Once the lad Petty went down you could see the backline becoming disorganised. Well why not? Hore has proven himself a very able substitute small defender, good in the air and on the ground. Petty has not been there long but made good spoils and was taking strong contested marks until he was hurt.

Now coaches in the old days, like Ivor and Checker, liked to keep their backline settled. One of my old coaches from up Golden Point way, I forget which, used to say the back six had to play like a unit, a “yoonit” it sounded like, like six men become one they know each others’ games so well. That can’t happen on days like yesterday, which is why, when the game opened up in the third quarter, Carlton could almost keep pace with us, because the backline was struggling to work like a “yoonit”.

Seven goals we kicked in that third quarter. The way the game is played now that’s smart work. Seven goals one behind after kicking 7.11 in the entire first half. Now that 7.11 should have been 11.7 but the way we have struggled this year in front of the big sticks that third quarter was a ripper. And it was only with the back line losing key players that enabled Carlton to keep within five goals, like I said.

Now the last quarter, that was tough. Three blokes down now, like playing with 17 men in the old days, that is hard yakka. I see the boy Brayshaw said he’s never been so tired on a footy field as he was at the end. It’s rare that one team dominates all day. Carlton was always going to have a purple patch, and that fella Murphy did ‘em proud, but Murphy really did his best work once the Demon boys were tiring from the lack of interchanges. I saw at the last change it was something like 19 fewer interchanges even then. Give us a fit group and we would have rolled right over them.

People have also been moaning about the fact that Carlton was missing a couple of key players and that’s fair enough, but I don’t think that fellow Casboult would have had the same impact if the younger Curnow was there. Or Silvagni? Would he have had the same opportunities? Maybe, maybe not, but you can only beat what they put out there on the day.

I was so surprised by the negativity on demonland that I took at look at talkingblues instead. There was the usual bad stuff but even a few Carlton supporters realised that without our injuries they’d have been out of the hunt.

Make no mistake: this is one to enjoy. This was a win that took spirit and character and our boys were equal to the task. Carna Red Legs.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Percy Beames