1 hour ago, binman said:

I guess if you see things in simple black and white terms then you might be right. 

But I prefer a more holistic, nuanced perspective that sees how a range of factors are interconnected.

Don't feel you need to reply. 

Yep.

Cause laying more than two tackles in a quarter needs a whole lot of nuanced thought and perspective.

3 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yep.

Cause laying more than two tackles in a quarter needs a whole lot of nuanced thought and perspective.

Leadership Qualities 

until we get these qualities into most of our playing group, nothing will change. 

 

59 minutes ago, bing181 said:

I'm not sure anyone's saying that it is.

Equally, things aren't always as unconnected as they might at first seem: inability to perform at highest level (personally/collectively) -> falling confidence and self-belief -> inability to perform at highest level (personally/collectively).

I accept that.

If we had had a perfect pre-season, we'd be doing far better than we are right now, but we'd still have problems. And I want the club to look at more than just having a better 2019/20 pre-season.

4 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

The issue this season is down to skills, form and consistency of 4 qtr efforts, they have all been lacking

Losing 3 really important players in AVB,  Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped

To use the preseason as an excuse is a cop out

There was no new game plan to learn or implement

 All our issues this season have been above the shoulders

What happens when the majority of your best 22 players don't have preseasons?  Their skill drop off because you haven't trained them or practised them.  When your skills drop off your confidence drops off.  Confidence is above the shoulders.  Poor preseasons clearly impact confidence, particularly when so many players are impacted. I'd contend that many of our "above the shoulders" stem from a poor preseason.

And anyway how can you say all our issues are above the shoulders when you've said losing AVB, Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped?

Misson reports to the Board we've had a terrible preseason and we will struggle.  He was right.

2 hours ago, Macca said:

Sorry for editing your post in this way BM but this part of your post stood out to me. 

Even mug sportspeople can battle it out when it doesn't matter but the greats use it as practice.  They never quit.

Most others give up ... it's a mindset often confined to the elite but there is no reason why an average player can't have a never-say-die attitude. 

And that's what we lack (apart from a number of other weaknesses)

It would be near impossible for young supporters to know what Robbie Flower meant to supporters, young and old in those dismal days.Even when he had an average day of 15 hard earned disposals he did things that made the best of the opposition look second rate. And who could forget his Big V appearances. We knew he would star for the Vics and show everyone how good he was and he never let us down. I only ever saw him slightly beaten once and that was at Princes Park by a young South Australian, Motley, just before his tragic accident. What a player he would have been.

I'll put the Brisbane result down to the midfielders having a shocking off day, which happens, the contributing factors being:

1. The highs of recording a strong win against Freo (yeah I know).
2. An interstate trip up to nice weather in the middle of Melbourne winter
3. Brisbane's midfielders being quick and well drilled and just in the right spots - either rucking to Gawn or getting the easy taps once Gawn went down
4. A clear focus on ball movement and scoring taking their minds off the basics.

I'd say the first 5 weeks was certainly about lack of fitness.

And the whole season has now been overshadowed by injuries. 

Since the first 5 rounds we've beaten Hawthorn, Gold Coast and Freo, whilst losing in not entirely terrible shape to Richmond and Collingwood. We should've beat Adel and West Coast, whilst we've had shockers against GWS and Brisbane. It's 3-6 but with a bit of luck or avialable talent it could've been 4-4. 

If you factor in the lack of confidence, injuries and other things that just spiral when the losing starts I really think the preseason has cost us being closer to an even win/loss record. That's the kind of team we could've been with a fair run at it. That's still a long way off what we'd like to be but it's not the end of the world if that was the correction year after a run of improvements. 

2 tackles is certainly a mental and physical awful effort and outside any justification from preseasons, but if it's not repeated again this week then it's something you can move on from.

41 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

It would be near impossible for young supporters to know what Robbie Flower meant to supporters, young and old in those dismal days.Even when he had an average day of 15 hard earned disposals he did things that made the best of the opposition look second rate. And who could forget his Big V appearances. We knew he would star for the Vics and show everyone how good he was and he never let us down. I only ever saw him slightly beaten once and that was at Princes Park by a young South Australian, Motley, just before his tragic accident. What a player he would have been.

Fitzroy had Murray,  South had Skilton and Footscray had Whitten.  The Bulldogs won a flag for Whitten in '54 but their team along with South,  the Roys and our team at least had a great player who could mix it with the best.

Flower would dominate in games where we got smashed by much superior opposition.  And he did it consistently.  The mark of a great player.

But it is hard to replicate ... players are born with that never-say-die attitude and if they are highly skilled as well,  you've got yourself a star.

Fast forward to today and Gawn is our star along with Oliver if he can be freed up.  I'd take Oliver out of the middle and played forward for the remainder of the season to free him up.  Petracca into the middle and then see how they both go playing different roles. 

Let's face it,  we've got nothing to lose and Oliver is not impacting games anyway.  Brayshaw is another and he might shine more without Oliver by his side.  Change things up I say.

Rather than putting the cue in the rack we've got a great chance to start preparing our side (and game plan) for next season.  And we can still win games in the process.  Win/Win.

46 minutes ago, Macca said:

Fitzroy had Murray,  South had Skilton and Footscray had Whitten.  The Bulldogs won a flag for Whitten in '54 but their team along with South,  the Roys and our team at least had a great player who could mix it with the best.

Flower would dominate in games where we got smashed by much superior opposition.  And he did it consistently.  The mark of a great player.

But it is hard to replicate ... players are born with that never-say-die attitude and if they are highly skilled as well,  you've got yourself a star.

Fast forward to today and Gawn is our star along with Oliver if he can be freed up.  I'd take Oliver out of the middle and played forward for the remainder of the season to free him up.  Petracca into the middle and then see how they both go playing different roles. 

Let's face it,  we've got nothing to lose and Oliver is not impacting games anyway.  Brayshaw is another and he might shine more without Oliver by his side.  Change things up I say.

Rather than putting the cue in the rack we've got a great chance to start preparing our side (and game plan) for next season.  And we can still win games in the process.  Win/Win.

I love your thinking and had not considered Oliver forward and Petracca in the guts. Co incidently I was listening to a bloke called Thomey/ on eadio today talking about how in Petraccas draft year he had moved from being a destructive forward to someone who could go in the middle. He stikes me as the kind of young man who needs an arm around him while being told, "Christian, we need you now, you are the one who can give us all a spark and the rest will follow"   

I am not saying it is easy but a reasonable mid or mids should at least break even with Gawn palming it down. It makes me wonder if some of our guys think they are better than they would be if not for the big fella.  I would try even use Maynard as a battering ram and rotate different players fast and hard to see what we have and have not for end of year planning. It is a shame modern coaches are not prepared to mix it around like the old days. Never forget players running from one end of the ground to the other to give a chop out or provide a spark. At worst it puts you on the offensive and makes the opposition think and or react. 

Preuss Maynard or Preuss Petracca would give us some grunt and fear factor if they are tuned in.

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yep.

Cause laying more than two tackles in a quarter needs a whole lot of nuanced thought and perspective.

Thanks for the reply. Nice for to you make it clear that you don't go nuance or grey, just black and white.

But you needn't have worried. I knew that already.

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I accept that.

If we had had a perfect pre-season, we'd be doing far better than we are right now, but we'd still have problems. And I want the club to look at more than just having a better 2019/20 pre-season.

We might have won a couple of extra games but I don't think things would be markedly different. I still think we would've lost to Port, Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, St. Kilda, GWS, Collingwood & Brisbane. We may have pinched one or two of those but it's still a far cry from what many here were expecting and what the club had set itself up for. Most of those games were lost due to our gameplan being exposed by the opposition first and foremost.

15 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

I love your thinking and had not considered Oliver forward and Petracca in the guts. Co incidently I was listening to a bloke called Thomey/ on eadio today talking about how in Petraccas draft year he had moved from being a destructive forward to someone who could go in the middle. He stikes me as the kind of young man who needs an arm around him while being told, "Christian, we need you now, you are the one who can give us all a spark and the rest will follow"   

I am not saying it is easy but a reasonable mid or mids should at least break even with Gawn palming it down. It makes me wonder if some of our guys think they are better than they would be if not for the big fella.  I would try even use Maynard as a battering ram and rotate different players fast and hard to see what we have and have not for end of year planning. It is a shame modern coaches are not prepared to mix it around like the old days. Never forget players running from one end of the ground to the other to give a chop out or provide a spark. At worst it puts you on the offensive and makes the opposition think and or react. 

Preuss Maynard or Preuss Petracca would give us some grunt and fear factor if they are tuned in.

Midfield players like Oliver get scragged,  held on to,  blocked and tagged and he looks to me like he needs some relief from it all.  So playing him forward with a license to go where he likes could free him up.  Plus,  he's a lovely kick for goal. 

Petracca is your prototype Paul Roos big-bodied midfielder who is not so easily blocked or held on to (or scragged) He too could relish the freedom of playing as a midfielder who can create an option or win his own ball.  Or as a link-up player. 

The make-up of the structure of the team hasn't changed much all season.  And it isn't working anyway. 

It is the ideal time now for Goodwin to show a bit of imagination with the game plan and our structure.  As previously stated,  we've got nothing to lose.  If it doesn't happen,  no sweat.  It's just an idea.

It would make a difference if we won some clearances from centre bounces. The best ruckman in the game working with a combination  of Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes, Petracca, Jones and we get smacked in the clearances.

How can this happen? When is this going to stop? Where are the changes to personnel or tactics going to be revealed? Why is there no response? What is being done?

Just like forward entries on elastic bands (that bound straight back) this should have been fixed long ago. Help.

Maccas last two paragraphs are spot on.

Edited July 3, 20195 yr by tiers
Posted while writing.

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yep.

Cause laying more than two tackles in a quarter needs a whole lot of nuanced thought and perspective.

As if laying 2 tackles in one quarter of one particular match is the reason we are bottom 3. Lol!

Footy isn't that simple. Some supporters are though.

16 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

As if laying 2 tackles in one quarter of one particular match is the reason we are bottom 3. Lol!

Footy isn't that simple. Some supporters are though.

 

Have never stated such a thing but cool.

 

21 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

What happens when the majority of your best 22 players don't have preseasons?  Their skill drop off because you haven't trained them or practised them.  When your skills drop off your confidence drops off.  Confidence is above the shoulders.  Poor preseasons clearly impact confidence, particularly when so many players are impacted. I'd contend that many of our "above the shoulders" stem from a poor preseason.

And anyway how can you say all our issues are above the shoulders when you've said losing AVB, Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped?

Misson reports to the Board we've had a terrible preseason and we will struggle.  He was right.

Those three are important players, but we shoukd have the cattle to teplace, we haven't 

Part of the rehab is skills based

Is Misson's statement a justification

We are having a year similar to the Bulldogs after their premiership

A coach who didn't change a winning game plan

Players unable to reproduce the form

Confidence

'Older' players clocks ticking louder

Etc etc

 

 

It is easy to say the pre season was poor, players did all the loads required of them either in rehab or main group, I watched them all train at very high levels of intensity before the season started

Just hasn't translated to game days

My opinion, using the pre season as an excuse is a cop out

 

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

Those three are important players, but we shoukd have the cattle to teplace, we haven't 

Part of the rehab is skills based

Is Misson's statement a justification

We are having a year similar to the Bulldogs after their premiership

A coach who didn't change a winning game plan

Players unable to reproduce the form

Confidence

'Older' players clocks ticking louder

Etc etc

 

 

It is easy to say the pre season was poor, players did all the loads required of them either in rehab or main group, I watched them all train at very high levels of intensity before the season started

Just hasn't translated to game days

My opinion, using the pre season as an excuse is a cop out

 

With all due respect Saty your credibility on this particular issue is not high.

 

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Those three are important players, but we shoukd have the cattle to teplace, we haven't 

Part of the rehab is skills based

Is Misson's statement a justification

We are having a year similar to the Bulldogs after their premiership

A coach who didn't change a winning game plan

Players unable to reproduce the form

Confidence

'Older' players clocks ticking louder

Etc etc

 

 

It is easy to say the pre season was poor, players did all the loads required of them either in rehab or main group, I watched them all train at very high levels of intensity before the season started

Just hasn't translated to game days

My opinion, using the pre season as an excuse is a cop out

 

Well if that's the case Saty, this season is even more disappointing than I've realised. And I was already immensely disappointed.

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

It is easy to say the pre season was poor, players did all the loads required of them either in rehab or main group, I watched them all train at very high levels of intensity before the season started

 

well that is in direct opposition to what misson told the board. he specifically quoted the deficient preseason loads achieved across the list with actual statistics......the required workloads were just not achieved and were so low it was worth highlighting to the board  

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

Have never stated such a thing but cool.

 

Another poster stated that the reasons behind our position this year are nuanced and not black and white. You used that tackle count stat to dispute such nuance, as if that stat summed up our year. It's cherry picking.

So yeah, cool.

 

 

Edited July 4, 20195 yr by Moonshadow

On 7/2/2019 at 1:27 PM, Snoopy said:

In an effort to move past the teeth gnashing and knee jerk reactions to this year's disappointments it's time to acknowledge that the real reason probably started a few days after the loss to WCE in the Preliminary Final last year when something like 17 players were scheduled for end of season operations to fix ankles, shoulders, hips, knees and heavens knows what else. This cruelled our preseason which most recognize is the foundation stone of strong on field performances.  Fitness is a non negotiable in footy and we just don't have it.

It was reported here that Craig Jennings (I think) said that at one stage in the preseason we had 12 players fit enough to complete the main session indicating that the injuries we had went well beyond those who had operations.  Key players effected included:-

• Our entire starting midfield had interrupted preseasons - Viney, Harmes and Oliver had operations and Jones and Brayshaw had injuries. If my memory is correct none started with the main group until February and some not until March.
• Three of our best forwards had interrupted preseasons - Tmac had both ankles operated on, Melk had hammy issues and Trac a knee operation
• Our best defenders had interrupted preseasons - Jetta a knee, May with his issues and Lever recovering from an ACL.  From memory Hibberd might also have had a operation.

This is a list of the "main crew" who had little or no preseason..  Then there were players like Stretch, Hannan, Oscar Baker and Hore who were also significantly disrupted. 

Through no fault of anyone, unless you want to suggest we send 13 of our Preliminary Final players off for end of season surgery in August, these players lack fitness because of the lack of a proper preseason. I think this lack of fitness underlies the majority of the issues we have faced this year including:-

• an inability to run out games
• inability to play 4 quarters
• basic skill errors - these occur when plays fatigue
• a lack of confidence
• a lack of connection
• a lack of two way running

Compounding this has been a wretched run of injury in season.  AVB, Smith, May, Melksham, Hibberd and Jetta have been significant losses.  JKH, Stretch, KK and Garlett have added to our issues.

On Champion Data stats we lost 89 games to injury to our best 22 in the first 10 games - 50% more than any other team and this on top of a poor preseason.  You can carry some injuries but there reaches a stage when you lose so many that the game just falls apart because you're playing too many players who are NQR.  We've seen this with Richmond and Collingwood.  Is it any surprise that Geelong and Brisbane are doing surprisingly well.  They've had no injuries of note.  And is it any surprise that Gawn and Salem have performed so well.  To my knowledge they had good preseasons.

The vitriol directed at players, coaches and fitness staff beg the reality of our situation.  Calls to rebuild, change the coach and radically change the game plan ignore core issues that have led to our situation.  Posters are far too keen to find blame rather than find reasons.

I've never been more confident that we've got the building blocks to be very good.  There are some gaps in our list we need to fill and we could well do that in this trade period.

This has been a disappointing year but is not reflective of our Club or the players and staff.

 

 

 best post of the year.  Next year we will be back I am sure.  need a few wins this last 8 weeks to head into 2020.

 

 

14 hours ago, daisycutter said:

well that is in direct opposition to what misson told the board. he specifically quoted the deficient preseason loads achieved across the list with actual statistics......the required workloads were just not achieved and were so low it was worth highlighting to the board  

And who's  job is that i wonder

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

And who's  job is that i wonder

Are you serious?

Of course Misso plays a role in supporting the rehabilitation of players (along with the medical team) but it is beyond silly to blame him for the huge number of sessions missed by the list as whole given the fact that so many players had post season surgeries (about 40% of the list) and injuries. 

Sheesh. 

 

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

And who's  job is that i wonder

bit unfair, bub

players were unavailable due to 1) operations 2) shortened pre-season due to finals 3) injuries 4) extensive number and duration in rehab group over preseason

whether he could have done better, i'm not in a position to really know but he was certainly up against major constraints in player availability

well done gents...you quickly answered to the wrong suggestion.

I dont particularly blame Misson. I will be interested to see how his replacement fares but my question was asked in hope that some might realise that whilst Misson is the performance manage or whatever, it is the Football department as an overseer that takes the ultimate responsibility for the who and how they present themselves.

Without doubt Misson would have had to present reports on players. So if he knew all was not well, then so would the FD. 

Our FD imho  is without doubt the major cause and concern of this club

 

22 hours ago, daisycutter said:

well that is in direct opposition to what misson told the board. he specifically quoted the deficient preseason loads achieved across the list with actual statistics......the required workloads were just not achieved and were so low it was worth highlighting to the board  

Goodwin when justifying playing a player, coming back from rehab, specifically said on a few occasions  'we think he has done the amount of training load required' So who is right?