The worst part about this whole thing is that it started the whole "You can't boo a 'champion'" movement. I used to boo whoever I damn well liked. But nuffies boo people because of the colour of their skin, which has kind of ruined the whole thing for me. 

Now I can't boo anyone! BOOO!!!!!

11 minutes ago, Chook said:

The worst part about this whole thing is that it started the whole "You can't boo a 'champion'" movement. I used to boo whoever I damn well liked. But nuffies boo people because of the colour of their skin, which has kind of ruined the whole thing for me. 

Now I can't boo anyone! BOOO!!!!!

Yeah I did have a Melbourne supporter this year tell me not to boo Tom Scully and to that I say “boooooo”

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

right-on. it really started to take off post the aoty

Tend to agree but why? You don't get jeered just for being awarded an AOTY gong, regardless of your racial background. If I recall correctly Goodes' comments surrounding that award at the time were perceived as somewhere along the spectrum of confronting and divisive. I think there was a sense by many that this was a great opportunity for an indigenous sporting icon to both bring up the challenges faced by his community at the same time as extending an olive branch to wider Australia. I think a lot people were hoping for a little less Malcolm X 'agitator' and a little more Nelson Mandela 'unifier'. We didn't really get that - which was his right - but it certainly didn't go down well with large sections of the community who don't see themselves as racist or engage in any racist behavior.

LittleGoffy's comment about the notion of the "uppity Aborigine" probably also has some merit here, although I'm not sure it tells the full story. 

8 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Tend to agree but why? You don't get jeered just for being awarded an AOTY gong, regardless of your racial background. If I recall correctly Goodes' comments surrounding that award at the time were perceived as somewhere along the spectrum of confronting and divisive. I think there was a sense by many that this was a great opportunity for an indigenous sporting icon to both bring up the challenges faced by his community at the same time as extending an olive branch to wider Australia. I think a lot people were hoping for a little less Malcolm X 'agitator' and a little more Nelson Mandela 'unifier'. We didn't really get that - which was his right - but it certainly didn't go down well with large sections of the community who don't see themselves as racist or engage in any racist behavior.

LittleGoffy's comment about the notion of the "uppity Aborigine" probably also has some merit here, although I'm not sure it tells the full story. 

I think there's a third group there. The bunch that think sporting figures are just there for our entertainment and shouldn't hold any opinions or be given any wider plaudits within the community. Those who do must be mercilessly shown their place, for they have deigned to rise up from the colosseum and tangle with forces beyond their ken…or something.

3 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

All valid questions. But in asking them you also have to field questions which fit don’t fit the narrative. 

Why were/are other indigenous players not bood?

What percentage of those booing Goodes were genuinely racist and what percentage were booing for football related reasons? 

What effect did the actions of Goodes himself, both in terms of his off field style of communication and in his decision to engage in the mock spear throwing etc, have in terms of fanning the flames of the situation? 

Is Australia the ‘racist nation’ that the narrative of this film would have viewers believe, or is it an astoundingly tolerant nation albeit with a checkered and troubled past? 

Unfortunately no amount of belated, forced sorry’s and mea culpas from the Gillon and his ilk are ever going to adequately address any of those queries. Nor the questions  you ask. 

What I do know is that reality is far more complex than that seen through one film director’s prism of story telling. Rare indeed is the documentary which gets at an issue from an array of angles and standpoints. 

You mean like Rocky? ?

I boo everyone equally.

6 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

You mean like Rocky? ?

I knew you would appear to post that as I wrote my comment.

Not the same at all. Rocky is one of scores of films exploring that particular theme. Not to mention all the books, studies and so on which cover mental strength and success in sport.

As far as I know there's only been one film so far about the Adam Goodes story.

7 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yesterday the AFL released an Apology to Adam Goodes for not standing by him. 

For the final years of Goodes' decorated career they receded into the background and did nothing while he was being vilified by crowds at games and by 'personalities' in the media and effectively hounded out of the game. 

The AFL has had 4 years to apologise but has not.  This week two docos are released on Goodes last years in the game.  They are docos in which the AFL and some key people in the industry, by their own actions and words are complicit in and added to the trauma Goodes endured.  I haven't seen the docos so can't comment on them.

But I will say they AFL should be supremely embarrassed that it has taken 4 years to apologise.  Its hard to think there is much sincerity let alone contrition in the apology and its timing suggests it is to preempt the docos tarnishing of its 'reputation' and divert attention from the docos.  The AFL are controlling 'the optics' as usual!!

Whatever one thinks of Goodes or how he played the game its hard to accept how he was neglected by the AFL and those it can influence.  I find the belated apology shallow and opportunistic.  I would have applauded the apology had it been made when Goodes retired.

Not saying the AFL should be the moral flag bearers of our society.  But it should stand up and be counted when it comes to any of its players let alone one of its champions.  How does the saying go:  the standards we walk past are the standards we accept.   Now, the apology is, imv too little, too late.

 

I recall feeling annoyed at Goodes's treatment,  of the booing and the bullying tones he had to endure...  for  just being a victim who dared to make a stand on a big issue... for his indigenous communities,  and really for the Goode of US all.

.

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Yeah I did have a Melbourne supporter this year tell me not to boo Tom Scully and to that I say “boooooo”

I used to hear Mfc supporters denigrate Rodney Grinter for playing too roughly...  some felt ashamed  of him.   I ask you...  Melbourne players cannot win.

 

The sooner we play out of the Southern side,  the stronger & better the club will be.

.

21 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I boo everyone equally.

?  Thats the spirit  'ET'.

4 hours ago, Damo said:

A large Victorian club had a screening earlier this week. All employees attended.

At the end everyone felt very bad. Someone I know and respect was there. The person was almost in tears as he told the story. At the end the president stood up to speak and I was told every single person thought that he, like the silent hundreds in the room, should own the hurt and bigotry shown to Adam Goodes and show remorse.

The person there said the president did not "own it". He made excuses. Thats what hurt him as he thought if this does not change Australian attitudes, nothing will. Ive never seen my friend quite so upset to be honest.

Shameful by that president and that club.  Makes a mockery of the AFL + 18 club apology.  On your friend's experience it was 17 clubs at best + 1 dissenter but the majority won carried the day.  Furthers my view that the apology is shallow and opportunistic. 

I wonder how many non-anglo people were in the room watching the video.  The president's excuses would have stung them - one doesn't need to be indigenous to experience and be hurt by racism. 

3 hours ago, Nasher said:

Q3) until incidents like this cease happening all together, yep, Australia is a racist country. 

Absolutely. Though not alone unfortunately. There are parallels with what happened to Goodes and what has happened in European football to black players like Raheem Sterling and Moise Keane. 

1 hour ago, Chook said:

The worst part about this whole thing is that it started the whole "You can't boo a 'champion'" movement. I used to boo whoever I damn well liked. But nuffies boo people because of the colour of their skin, which has kind of ruined the whole thing for me. 

Now I can't boo anyone! BOOO!!!!!

I’d boo you, but I fear I would be band from posting for 3 months

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Tend to agree but why? You don't get jeered just for being awarded an AOTY gong, regardless of your racial background. If I recall correctly Goodes' comments surrounding that award at the time were perceived as somewhere along the spectrum of confronting and divisive. I think there was a sense by many that this was a great opportunity for an indigenous sporting icon to both bring up the challenges faced by his community at the same time as extending an olive branch to wider Australia. I think a lot people were hoping for a little less Malcolm X 'agitator' and a little more Nelson Mandela 'unifier'. We didn't really get that - which was his right - but it certainly didn't go down well with large sections of the community who don't see themselves as racist or engage in any racist behavior.

I don't think you're owning your own thoughts here.

Malcolm X agitator? Extend an olive branch to wider Australia? WTF? 

Who is this 'we' who didn't really get that?

And so these people don't engage in racist behaviour but were so let down by Goode's approach to reconciliation that they went to the football and targeted him en masse?

Ridiculous logic. What you are describing is racism.

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I boo everyone equally.

To save time and ensure boo-equity you could have your phone divert to a recording of 'please leave a message after the Booooooooooooo!'

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I boo everyone equally.

You will still be labelled racist.

Because boo.

22 minutes ago, ding said:

You will still be labelled racist.

Because boo.

The perpetually offended and perpetual victims would still most definitely be offended. 

 

4 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Unfortunately yes, the booing of Goodes expanded to a level I've never witnessed in any other game for any other player. Not even single occasions, after some particularly ugly early incident in a game where a player was booed for the rest of the game.

I have literally never heard the kind of booing that Goodes received.

It was the calling the girl out, it was the dance, it was that he didn't back down on it when the nuff-nuff army demanded it.

Ugh, I'm still recalling the sick feeling up at a Sydney game, when the Hawthorn portion of the crowd ramped it up. The ball was out of play, nothing was happening, people where I was were looking around and up at the replay trying to figure out if there had been a trip or someone had been thrown into the fence. Nope, just Goodes, not even involved in the play, happened to be standing near a segment of Hawthorn reserved seating. There was a tangible sadness across the rest of the crowd (including, maybe especially, many other Hawthorn supporters) as they realised what was happening. It actually sucked a lot of life out of the crowd atmosphere for a while.

Not like any other booing I've ever witnessed.

Acknowleging that more than a few people out there in the poltiical world have run off with this to use it as leverage, I'll try to run through my own thoughts in the spirit of honest engagement and all that.

Other indigenous players generally weren't booed or abused (well, less so since the late 90s at least) because they weren't being, shall we say, 'uppity'. There's a pretty obvious unwritten code that you'll be welcome as long as you keep within the nicey-nicey political correctness realms. Think 'theme round' and special guernsey designs. That 'keep it nice' issues kind of answers the next question, about Goodes fanning the flames. No doubt it did increase the sense of confrontation, even if it was wildly overblown by the people so 'offended' by it, but I suppose the question Goodes might ask is 'why am I expected to have to worry about fanning such a stupid flame?'.

Bizarrely, I think Goodes found himself in the bind that mostly people with quite opposite views find themselves in; you say or do something a little controversial to begin with, the twitter storm erupts out of all proportion, everyone starts volunteering any excuse they can to heap more confected shame upon you, and if you don't back down then you officially become the worst person in the world.

As for 'how racist is Australia really'... definitely not as racist as many like to claim, definitely more racist than others like to claim.

Thinking hard here... hmmm... on the one hand, Australia has made such tremendous progress on racial and cultural issues in just a couple of generations, and could make a realistic claim to being the world's least racist nation overall. Trouble is, that isn't a smooth result and there are still many filthy horribly racist corners, and there are still some really obvious racial glass ceilings. But because it tends to happen in one organisation at a time or one group of bastards at the end of the street at a time, it has very low visibility anywhere else.

One way to put it - it is no longer 'normal' to be racist in Australia, but, for Aboriginal people, it is still very 'normal' to come up against really horrible racism in both personal and professional life, and to be left on your own to deal with it.

So then Goodes comes out and says 'racist' - the backlash comes from not only the grubby core of actual racists (and society's layer of people who just like to hurl abuse at anyone they can find an excuse to), but also a share of the people who are proud of their own improvement and their country's improvement and don't appreciate being told that colelctively they still suck.

For Goodes, the personal experience is one of having society tell him he hasn't experience the racism which he most definitely has, and then Goodes gets publicly abused and ostracised for the very act of saying what he is experiencing.

For the rest of the Aboriginal community, they see that happening and are reminded that society will deny the racism that does exist, and punish them for mentioning it.

Anyway, I quite agree that the documentary is unlikely to hit all these nuances, but at least it might help more people realise the normality of experiencing racism, even in an ostensibly not racist society.

As you say, the mea cuplas from Gil the Dill and the like do nothing - in fact they even reaffirm the starting position 'oh yes, we have totally learnt and wont be like that again, for real, I don't invite racists to any of my dinner parties'. And this pathetic 'leadership' takes us back to this easy, cosy pattern of he comforting, plausible, not-racist image of Australia, which has still not come to terms with the idea that experiencing racism is still quite normal for Aboriginal people.

You could say, Australia is not a racist society, but it is a society where the remaining racists can often expect to act our their noxious attitude without being penalised, and where the lifelong victims of racism feel that if they speak up about it they will be penalised. And that is pretty much the heart of why Goodes felt so alienated at the end of his career. And why the AFL should be so ashamed that they failed this simple test of solidarity, even as they kept decorating their brand with Indigenous-themed confetti.

Before or since, not even Scully gets booed by Dees fans like Goodes was. 

5 hours ago, demonstone said:

No, he was booed because he was a blackfella that had an opinion and spoke up about the disgraceful treatment his people had and still do endure from the less enlightened members of society.  Those people objected to an "uppity black who didn't know his place".

Anyone suggesting it wasn't racially based because other Aborigines weren't booed is missing the point entirely.  As if you have to abuse every member of a minority group before it's considered racist behaviour.  FFS.

When the docos go to air, it's a safe bet that those would benefit most and learn something from watching them will be the least likely to even tune in.

Exactly.

Generally the afl community loves the indigenous players while they weave their magic on the field, but get political like Adam Goodes did on receiving Australian of the year putting voice to the unfortunate truth of inherent racism in Australian society, and he is rising above his station.

He made that award a platform for highlighting the plight , the miserable reality for much of the indigenous population of Australia, much like Rosie batty did for domestic violence. Courageous, both of them.

im not indigenous, but the reason the booing was happening in those years,  particularly at hawthorn and west Coast games, to me was blatantly obvious.  I heard Patrick Dangerfield on 3aw today, saying that the docos helped the afl understand the experience of Goodes. Oh please. The afl community led by gill McLaughlin, was weak and gutless in their response at the time. Pathetic and leader-less.

Embarrassing 

 

I look forward to watching the doco. Apparently it is going to shown as part of the Sydney Film Festival then that's it in terms of a cinema release. So no release to cinema and i don't think TV either. They plan to put it on a website (i can't recall which) where it can be viewed for free to enable it be used for educational purposes. Brilliant idea.

Interesting concept for the doco in so far as there is no narration, interviews or talking heads. It is 100% archival footage, the idea apparently being that that approach support people making up their own minds about what happened and why. 

Wrong thread

Edited June 8, 20196 yr by Petraccattack

8 hours ago, Chook said:

I think there's a third group there. The bunch that think sporting figures are just there for our entertainment and shouldn't hold any opinions or be given any wider plaudits within the community. Those who do must be mercilessly shown their place, for they have deigned to rise up from the colosseum and tangle with forces beyond their ken…or something.

I think it is the same with entertainers who dare to voice a political opinion or air a concern about the environment. How dare they say anything apart from singing songs or acting in films! But aren't they citizens just like the rest of us who must live in this world? Aren't they entitled to live the life they wish to have without everyone telling them their rights don't count, simply because of the path they have chosen? It's as though they are not real people, merely holograms who should stay in their place. 

Adam Goodes spoke the uncomfortable truth, according to his experience, and people didn't like hearing it, because it made them uncomfortable. What's worse, some people denied his reality. The most disrespectful thing you can do, is to tell someone how they feel, or how they should feel, without knowing what that person has experienced or is experiencing. 

We need to be reminded of the old saying- Walk a mile in my shoes.

6 hours ago, KLV said:

Exactly.

Generally the afl community loves the indigenous players while they weave their magic on the field, but get political like Adam Goodes did on receiving Australian of the year putting voice to the unfortunate truth of inherent racism in Australian society, and he is rising above his station.

He made that award a platform for highlighting the plight , the miserable reality for much of the indigenous population of Australia, much like Rosie batty did for domestic violence. Courageous, both of them.

im not indigenous, but the reason the booing was happening in those years,  particularly at hawthorn and west Coast games, to me was blatantly obvious.  I heard Patrick Dangerfield on 3aw today, saying that the docos helped the afl understand the experience of Goodes. Oh please. The afl community led by gill McLaughlin, was weak and gutless in their response at the time. Pathetic and leader-less.

Embarrassing 

 

Is Dangerfield the spokesman for the AFL is he? What job is he after? What a crock of s*&t. They will never truly understand. Too little, too late. This sounds so patronizing. Wouldn't blame Goodes if he ignored the so called apology and didn't acknowledge it.

So why did Goodes get named Australian of the Year again?
Was it because he actually did something worthy of the honour or that he was just a prominent aboriginal at the time?

He first got boo'd for his cheap shots on the field that the AFL often let him off for.
Then he won AOTY and instead of using the honour to unite he chose to use the platform to deliver divisive anti australian rhetoric during some of his speeches.
This made many of the population who couldn't care less what colour you are didn't like the direction he took which is when the booing ramped up.
He then thought it a bright idea to run brandishing an imaginary spear at a small pocket of Carlton supporters at the SCG on prime time TV which is when all hell broke loose.
And he wonders why.

Now as they tend to do these days, all the holier than thou virtue signallers are out in force squealing racists.
 

Edited June 8, 20196 yr by Fork 'em

Post deleted

Edited June 8, 20196 yr by AmDamDemon