6 minutes ago, Hell Bent said:

Great post Buck.

Totally agree on all points. I think they have  absolutely overestimated our depth (like many of us here, me included), thinking some of our fringe players could burden the load until the guns were all back and firing. Scrape a few wins early in the season and then re-load and expect more of the same domination of late last year. 

It`s been a disaster, but I guess these surgeries had to happen at some stage and now we are copping the ramifications.

We are likely to turn it around mid season, problem is our season is already cooked.

 

 

2 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

My suspicion is they thought they could get away with it, but are being caught out.  

I find these suggestions laughable, because what is the alternate...they've only got the playing list that they have... the would neither over rate or under rate them, and even if they do, it's all a moot point - as the results will be what the results will be.

Any team who has had an injury list to the top tier of their best 22 players will suffer dramatically - see the Tiges as a point in case at the moment also, and we have had it to my last count a significant amount of  players that significantly influence structure...May, Viney, TMAC, Petracca, Hannan, Oliver,  Kolarjazzknee ;), Jetta, AVB, Joel Smith and i wont include him (but I will) Lever... that's half of the 22 that are underdone...

So on that, I'd argue that no club can 'cover' that depth, and that there was no hope or suspicion that they could get away with it... that they can only make do with what they have and the results are a direct result (not an excuse) of the preseason injuries/rehab.

It’s not that we are losing it’s the way we are losing.

Richmond and Hawthorn are still playing the same way even as results haven’t been to the same level. 

We haven’t lost so many players that it’s impossible to field  a midfield that can run both ways, a backline that can win the ball and take it away and a forward line that works together.

The lack of balance at the contest - in the air or on the ground - and lack of run are both huge list and coaching issues. 

A team should be more than the sum of their parts, we are less 

Edited May 1, 20195 yr by DeeSpencer

It's somewhat ironic that Dean Kent, a player who we probably should've kept and who was perpetually injured with us, moves to St Kilda at the end of last season and has been flying ever since (including, unfortunately, against us).

Hogan too (but for getting boozed before a training session).

 

2 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's somewhat ironic that Dean Kent, a player who we probably should've kept and who was perpetually injured with us, moves to St Kilda at the end of last season and has been flying ever since (including, unfortunately, against us).

Hogan too (but for getting boozed before a training session).

 

@Ron Burgundy, is that irony by definition, or Alanis Morrisettes version of irony?

Edited May 1, 20195 yr by Engorged Onion

2 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's somewhat ironic that Dean Kent, a player who we probably should've kept and who was perpetually injured with us, moves to St Kilda at the end of last season and has been flying ever since (including, unfortunately, against us).

Hogan too (but for getting boozed before a training session).

 

Hogan has kicked 5 goals in 5 games. 

Dean Kent 6 goals in 6 games and an ave. 11 touches.

Hardly “flying”.

33 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It’s not that we are losing it’s the way we are losing.

Richmond and Hawthorn are still playing the same way even as results haven’t been to the same level. 

We haven’t lost so many players that it’s impossible to field  a midfield that can run both ways, a backline that can win the ball and take it away and a forward line that works together.

The lack of balance at the contest - in the air or on the ground - and lack of run are both huge list and coaching issues. 

A team should be more than the sum of their parts, we are less 

I'll say it again...we lose by design.

Everybody quick to rubbish the players. They in the main are quite capable. We have gone back to lusting over magic fixes at drafts.

Our plan ..gamestyle...is just inadequate in the current climate.

You can have the best ingredients, but if your methodology and/or recipe is bogus you'll end up with crud.

We are currently...crud.

It's not the players fault in the main. They're being instructed to play in a manner you simply can't ( and expect to keep it up up 4/4 all season ).

We are seeing the results of poor design and poor management.

15 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's somewhat ironic that Dean Kent, a player who we probably should've kept and who was perpetually injured with us, moves to St Kilda at the end of last season and has been flying ever since (including, unfortunately, against us).

Hogan too (but for getting boozed before a training session).

 

He was one of very few (if any) who flew the flag when the Hawks bullied us last year.  He showed real spririt that day, including kicking 3 very nice goals in the first.  He at least gave a yelp.

One of the bullying incidents on the day was at an opening bounce of a quarter (not the first likely the 2nd or 3rd), vision from behind the goal showed Stratton heading into our forward line after the huddles broke.  He pretty much did a minor Dermy and pushed / shoved anyone in his vicinity including putting Fritsch on his backside.  Hogan was right there and also received a shove in his shoulder after Fritsch went down, but he chose to do nothing and allowed Stratton to do his thing without fear of reprisel.  He was the biggest most experienced forward standing right there and didn't give a yelp.  That was also the match where he rubbed Stratton's head (i think it was him) after he dropped a simple chest mark coming out of our goal square.  But guess what, he was playing in front and in the right position and still able to make an effective spoil on Hulk. Had Hogan worked anywhere near as hard that should have been him in front attempting the mark, not rubbing his head afterwards for dropping.  But alas.  No doubt he did some good work up the ground and was a fair player but certainly lowered his colours for team mates on the day IMO.

 

Edited May 1, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

9 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Hogan has kicked 5 goals in 5 games. 

Dean Kent 6 goals in 6 games and an ave. 11 touches.

Hardly “flying”.

Indeed. I went to a Saints message board the week before our game. The majority of them wanted him dropped but thought he would scrape through because he was playing his old side. 

I was disappointed when Kent left. We were never going to get what his value was due to all the injuries he had. His best was good but he was never on the park enough to get a decent string of games put together.

21 hours ago, Hell Bent said:

Gerard Whateley this morning led his show on SEN stating that Melbournes poor start to the year was simply due to our #interruptedpreseason that according to some on here did not exist. 

He said its not an excuse,  it's the reason. 

Finaly a footy pundit gets it. He is 100% right.

Well 90%. The injuries to Smith, preeuss, kk and may (and now viney) have made things even  more difficult. Perfect storm.

Footy culture is that you never blame injury and fitness. Soldier out, soldier in, gives a player a chance yada yada yada.Goody's comments about no excuses is yet one more example of this  culture. And the media and fans generally buy into this silly narrative. Instead they fixate on furphys such as game plan and stupid rumours of ructions to try and make sense of the poor form.

Blind freddy can see we are not fit enough, key players are carrying injuries in games and that a third of our best players are out injured. 

Edited May 1, 20195 yr by binman

1 hour ago, binman said:

Finaly a footy pundit gets it. He is 100% right.

Well 90%. The injuries to Smith, preeuss, kk and may (and now viney) have made things even  more difficult. Perfect storm.

Footy culture is that you never blame injury and fitness. Soldier out, soldier in, gives a player a chance yada yada yada.Goody's comments about no excuses is yet one more example of this  culture. And the media and fans generally buy into this silly narrative. Instead they fixate on furphys such as game plan and stupid rumours of ructions to try and make sense of the poor form.

Blind freddy can see we are not fit enough, key players are carrying injuries in games and that a third of our best players are out injured. 

So it is now ok to do other things in the winter of 2019 binman?

18 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I'll say it again...we lose by design.

Everybody quick to rubbish the players. They in the main are quite capable. We have gone back to lusting over magic fixes at drafts.

Our plan ..gamestyle...is just inadequate in the current climate.

You can have the best ingredients, but if your methodology and/or recipe is bogus you'll end up with crud.

We are currently...crud.

It's not the players fault in the main. They're being instructed to play in a manner you simply can't ( and expect to keep it up up 4/4 all season ).

We are seeing the results of poor design and poor management.

Or an inability to innovate and adapt because of the fixation with one method of design/brand BB?  This flows through to the type of players recruited and drill/training methods, which further impacts on that ability and restricts options to adapt and change.

Add to this the number of outs and compromised pre-seasons plus other teams foreseeing/adjusting more adequately to 666 without as many injury pre-season issues and we have created a perfect storm for ourselves.  Quite possibly unknowingly from an internal perspective....until it was too late eg; nowish!

20 hours ago, Hell Bent said:

They`ve lost all their confidence (in themselves and in each other) as a result of the first month of footy I reckon PIt and secondly once their lack of fitness kicks in, the basic skills like hitting simple targets goes out the door.

This is so true. Every game I have watched apart from the opening quarter against Port this team has looked lacking in confidence.

When you don't have confidence in you body it translates in every facet of the game. This has been most obvious when the flow of the game goes against us. Those are the moments when you back yourself and your team mates preparation and fitness to dig in and run hard for each other. That's just not happening.

I don't think our depth is really poor. We just have so many players in the team each week who look off the pace due to limited preseasons and they're key players: Melksham, Jones, Petracca, Harmes, Jetta and Tom McDonald.

How are you supposed to execute structures and game plan consistently when you don't have confidence in yourself and your team mates knowing that your body isn't going to hold up the way you would like across four quarters.

I appreciate the club not wanting to make this an excuse but it is a fact and being brought more to the surface is helping gain better understanding of why this team is under performing. 

19 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's somewhat ironic that Dean Kent, a player who we probably should've kept and who was perpetually injured with us, moves to St Kilda at the end of last season and has been flying ever since (including, unfortunately, against us).

Hogan too (but for getting boozed before a training session).

 

Kent 2019: avg 12 disp, 1 goal, 1.5 tackles per game

Hogan 2019: avg 18 disp, 1 goal, 1 tackle per game

They'd be 'flying' in a bottom team, but not so sure you can say that for the 2nd and 6th placed teams.

Apart from Kent's game against us, he's looked very average. 

My point is that they are gone, and whilst the grass can be greener on the other side, it would have been equally hard to mow. 

3 hours ago, old dee said:

So it is now ok to do other things in the winter of 2019 binman?

Not yet OD. The back to back saints and tigers losses left my confidence reserves on empty but i'm feeling a tad more positive now.

Season not done and dusted yet.

I think we will win the next two games and get to 3 and 5. By then we should be close to the necessary fitness levels and will have some players close to returning and Preuss and Viney should be back in.

Time to hang tough. We're dees fans - it should be second nature.

Edited May 2, 20195 yr by binman

2 hours ago, Yung Blood said:

This is so true. Every game I have watched apart from the opening quarter against Port this team has looked lacking in confidence.

When you don't have confidence in you body it translates in every facet of the game. This has been most obvious when the flow of the game goes against us. Those are the moments when you back yourself and your team mates preparation and fitness to dig in and run hard for each other. That's just not happening.

I don't think our depth is really poor. We just have so many players in the team each week who look off the pace due to limited preseasons and they're key players: Melksham, Jones, Petracca, Harmes, Jetta and Tom McDonald.

How are you supposed to execute structures and game plan consistently when you don't have confidence in yourself and your team mates knowing that your body isn't going to hold up the way you would like across four quarters.

I appreciate the club not wanting to make this an excuse but it is a fact and being brought more to the surface is helping gain better understanding of why this team is under performing. 

Good post Yung Blood.

To your list of key players i'd Weed. Clearly struggling with fitness and injury and is critical to our structure. Viney was also struggling before his injury.

Completely agree on the confidence front too. They look afraid of making mistake and not playing instinctively.

On the last point having reduced pre seasons sessions and multiple players in rehab would make it super hard to build the team synergy and complete knowledge of team structures that supports instinctive football. This synergy is critical for all clubs, particularly in terms of defending, but in some ways even more so for us given we employ an aggressive zone defense and our game plan relies on lots of quick, no look handballs to get the ball to a free player. 

When Goody talks about connection to a large extent synergy is what he is talking about.

3 hours ago, Yung Blood said:

This is so true. Every game I have watched apart from the opening quarter against Port this team has looked lacking in confidence.

When you don't have confidence in you body it translates in every facet of the game. This has been most obvious when the flow of the game goes against us. Those are the moments when you back yourself and your team mates preparation and fitness to dig in and run hard for each other. That's just not happening.

... but does that same analogy apply...  with having or not having confidence in the fitness and performance manager,  just by extension.?

Edited May 2, 20195 yr by DV8

33 minutes ago, binman said:

Not yet OD. The back to back saints and tigers losses left my confidence reserves on empty but i'm feeling a tad more positive now.

Season not done and dusted yet.

I think we will win the next two games and get to 3 and 5. By then we should be close to the necessary fitness levels and will have some players close to returning and Preuss and Viney should be back in.

Time to hang tough. We're dees fans - it should be second nature.

No matter how hard I try I cannot see how you come to the conclusion that we will win the next two.

Hawthorn we struggle to beat them when we are playing well.

GCS a faint chance because it is up there!

One aspect of our post season surgery count that warrants further investigation is the extent to which they were collision related injuries attributable to an aggressive contested game style.   I liked the contested brand the Dees played last year but found myself wondering what the physical toll would ultimately be.  It would be an interesting analysis for someone to undertake a very crude cut of contested footy ranking versus non-soft tissue injuries.

I also wonder how sustainable it is to have contested footy as your one wood....or even worse, your only wood.  You need look no further than West Coast to see it's not natural to be able to bring that level of commitment week in, week out.

 

 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:26 AM, BillyBeane said:

Adelaide still won 12 games though, we'd kill for that this year.

Given there's a few more than 12 games left this year, how about we wait and see? 

On 5/1/2019 at 12:04 AM, bing181 said:

"In his presentation, Misson showed that the Demons had 39 players complete a total of 33 training sessions each in the pre-season prior to the successful 2018 season. This year, in Misson’s telling, there were just 25 players completing a total of 22 sessions each – a massive drop partly explained by high number of players who had post-season surgery."

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/demons-early-warning-on-poor-start-to-2019-20190430-p51isa.html

I don't need Misson telling me our issues now, just pack up your belongings and leave quietly, you've already caused enough damage.

Edited May 2, 20195 yr by Win4theAges

1 hour ago, DV8 said:

... but does that same analogy apply...  with having or not having confidence in the fitness and performance manager,  just by extension.?

I haven't consulted or overseen the fitness and performance manager and their process/systems in place last off season so I'm not sure if I personally can make that assumption.

Roos pointed out during On The Couch a few weeks back that the team didn't look fit. He said a really good indicator of how a clubs fitness for an upcoming season were the results from the first 4km time trial first day back after the break. He said if the times were good you knew you had a good indication that your players were well set for a good season fitness wise.

I highly doubt Melbourne came back in great shape overall after the shorter break especially considering the off field surguries and delays players had. There weren't overwhelming revues of players coming back in excellent shape bar maybe Stretch, Fritsch and small handful of others.

No doubt this lack of preparation has killed our season and you can’t control players needing surgeries. What you can control is not spending top dollar and picks on unfit players (May, KK), not exposing injured players to more game time than necessary (Smith, Vanders, Preuss) and not letting underdone players be with a history of injuries to come back too early (Jetta). 

We don’t even deal properly with the things we can control, so there was no hope we would ever recover from the things we couldn’t.