The Need for Outside Midfielders

[deanox 9,989]

5 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Exactly. Tomlinson was not the player to bring in. He never was any likelihood of being a wingman type.  Endurance runner best suited to CHF /CHB role. 
 

Zak Jones was missed for a second time.  He wanted out of Sydney and despite the potential to play with his brother, the Saints got him. 

Even Jack Newnes was available at half the price of Tomlinson.  

I really don't understand why people keep saying "Tomlinson was never a winger". Yes he has played a number of positions throughout his career, but his last two years he played on the wing for over of the strongest teams in the comp (the grand finalist). Was he the best wing in the comp? No but he was posting the position capably in one of the better teams, was available and filled our biggest weakness. He'll get back in the team and will pay a few more games. 

We do need some more silk outside though still. Probably off the HBF and HFF, or the wing of course, but the wing is hard because you need silk, endurance and speed. 

[titan_uranus 25,043]

40 minutes ago, deanox said:

I really don't understand why people keep saying "Tomlinson was never a winger". Yes he has played a number of positions throughout his career, but his last two years he played on the wing for over of the strongest teams in the comp (the grand finalist). Was he the best wing in the comp? No but he was posting the position capably in one of the better teams, was available and filled our biggest weakness. He'll get back in the team and will pay a few more games. 

We do need some more silk outside though still. Probably off the HBF and HFF, or the wing of course, but the wing is hard because you need silk, endurance and speed. 

Agree with this.

A funny thing about Demonland: posters complain all the time about selection being ridiculous but then use the fact that someone was dropped against them.

Yes, Tomlinson was dropped. Some would argue a bit prematurely. And when you consider that the FD has, ostensibly, played favourites this year in retaining Melksham though his form slump as well as Harmes and Brayshaw, bringing TMac, vandenBerg and Bennell back before they were ready, and not picking Weideman for weeks, maybe the FD got it wrong in dropping Tomlinson too? And he was never in as poor form as being dropped suggests?

[roy11 3,893]

On 8/2/2020 at 9:44 AM, Hogan2014 said:

Langdon & Tomlinson we’re brought in for outside run... Langdon has played well & Tomlinson can’t get a game...  Mahoney words 

"We’re very excited to add Adam to our list as a free agent – he fills a very important need for our team," Demons general manager of football operations Josh Mahoney told melbournefc.com.au.

"He's played a number of different roles for the Giants, but predominantly what we'e looking for is someone who can run up and down the MCG on the wing.

"Adam is an elite runner and at 194cm, he has the versatility to provide us with a number of options, either forward or back.

Ok, so Tomlinson was signed to run up and down the MCG on the wing.

I think the selection committee has taken this too literal, as we are now no longer playing at the G and he isn't being selected. 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

11 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Agree with this.

A funny thing about Demonland: posters complain all the time about selection being ridiculous but then use the fact that someone was dropped against them.

Yes, Tomlinson was dropped. Some would argue a bit prematurely. And when you consider that the FD has, ostensibly, played favourites this year in retaining Melksham though his form slump as well as Harmes and Brayshaw, bringing TMac, vandenBerg and Bennell back before they were ready, and not picking Weideman for weeks, maybe the FD got it wrong in dropping Tomlinson too? And he was never in as poor form as being dropped suggests?

I would add Brown to that . Sure he was a bit fumbly but he led to the ball. I would of given him a break re  nerves in his first game for us. 

[Kent 2,914]

12 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

I reckon we could do worse than getting Witherden to slot in at half back and moving Salem to the wing. 

Salem to me appears to be a par of the problem

Doesnt drive the play forward, zero pressure and dinky kicks that take for ever to land

DOES NOT HURT THE OPPOSITION

[dazzledavey36 55,347]

The need for outside midfielders has been a need since 2016.

Yet our recruiting team have fail to act on it until last when they went and brought in two players. One is currently playing park footy. And to be honest Langdon hasn't really impressed me that much this year.

I still shake my head when we went for another inside midfielder in Kyle Dunkley last year's mid season draft (on top of already selecting Tom Sparrow) when someone like a John Noble from Collingwood who was available would have been the perfect fit with his speed and dash. 

How we are 12 months and still playing the likes of Jones and Brayshaw on a wing is absolutely beyond me.

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

Tomlinson isn't fast but he could be an excellent wingman of the Tom Lynch (Crows) link-man type.  He would need to start kicking goals and be in a lot of scoring-chains as the link-man. 

Or be a wingman in the reinvented Mitch Robinson type.  Not fast but brutal and makes excellent positions, sets up scoring chains and kicks the odd goal.

Not sure what type of wingman Tomlinson was the the giants but right now I don't see he has speed nor the attributes of Lynch or Robinson. 

He may end up as one of the not-so-successful trade-ins of recent years.

[Fat Tony 5,262]

Isaac Smith is someone we should be going for. I know he will be 32 next year but he is still one of the best runners at Hawthorn and has been the best outside player over the last decade IMO. He has the type of body that could play a very long career and has been durable.  He would fit our team perfectly and is a free agent.

[Fat Tony 5,262]

12 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

I reckon we could do worse than getting Witherden to slot in at half back and moving Salem to the wing. 

Witherden would be a good get but I would leave Salem at half back. I am not sure he has the running power for the wing.

[DeePressed 114]

I'd like to see players like Tomlinson/Dunkley/Sparrow/Harmes play as the inside mids along with Viney.

I haven't seen much of Jordan so i've only left him out as i don't know his strengths.

This could free up Petracca/Oliver/Brayshaw to become elite outside midfielders that can float in and out of contests depending on the game. Bennell also but 2021. Salem needs a new role.

In 2018 Oliver kicked 12 goals and Brayshaw kicked 14. 

The dependence on these players to get the inside pill doesn't allow them to free up and cause damage. Personally i don't want my elite mids tackling that much either. Hence why AVB is so important.

[Lord Travis 10,763]

13 minutes ago, DeePressed said:

I'd like to see players like Tomlinson/Dunkley/Sparrow/Harmes play as the inside mids along with Viney.

I haven't seen much of Jordan so i've only left him out as i don't know his strengths.

This could free up Petracca/Oliver/Brayshaw to become elite outside midfielders that can float in and out of contests depending on the game. Bennell also but 2021. Salem needs a new role.

I agree our midfield needs to be rebalanced, but not sure the above is best. 

Dunkley likely isn't up to AFL standard. Decent mid at VFL level, but more suited to a forward flank. We have his type in abundace.
Sparrow and Harmes could both play inside. Harmes has done this in the past. Sparrow is a natural inside mid, though very similar to Viney IMO. I wouldn't play them both in the guts together as they're too similar.
Tomlinson is more suited to running roles, not inside roles. I'd be playing him off halfback line as a mobile CHB type. I believe that's where he's best suited.
Jordan is potentially the best of the lot IMO. He has a more rounded skillset, showing he's capable inside in VFL second half of last year. He's got decent pace and good kicking skills, and started as half back flank. I'm actually surprised he hasn't debuted yet, as I rate him higher than some currently getting a game.

None of Petracca, Oliver or Brayshaw are good enough kicks to be elite outside mids.
Petraccas kicking is hit and miss. Sometimes it's low bullets, sometimes it's worst on ground efficiency.
Brayshaw similar and he's currently failing in a wing/outside mid role. He's either inside or bust, potentially back flank as he had success there in his first season.
Olivers kicking is horrendous, amongst the worst in the league. Playing him as an outside mid would be a poor coaching move if we're trying to win matches. He'd be better suited to a forward role, as his kicking for goals might not be as bad as his shoddy field kicking. He showed a bit when resting forward in 2018 as you mentioned.

We don't have the right balance of players on our list. IMO we need to trade/draft in more rounded mids and cast off some of our one paced inside mids.

[DeePressed 114]

6 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I agree our midfield needs to be rebalanced, but not sure the above is best. 

Dunkley likely isn't up to AFL standard. Decent mid at VFL level, but more suited to a forward flank. We have his type in abundace.
Sparrow and Harmes could both play inside. Harmes has done this in the past. Sparrow is a natural inside mid, though very similar to Viney IMO. I wouldn't play them both in the guts together as they're too similar.
Tomlinson is more suited to running roles, not inside roles. I'd be playing him off halfback line as a mobile CHB type. I believe that's where he's best suited.
Jordan is potentially the best of the lot IMO. He has a more rounded skillset, showing he's capable inside in VFL second half of last year. He's got decent pace and good kicking skills, and started as half back flank. I'm actually surprised he hasn't debuted yet, as I rate him higher than some currently getting a game.

None of Petracca, Oliver or Brayshaw are good enough kicks to be elite outside mids.
Petraccas kicking is hit and miss. Sometimes it's low bullets, sometimes it's worst on ground efficiency.
Brayshaw similar and he's currently failing in a wing/outside mid role. He's either inside or bust, potentially back flank as he had success there in his first season.
Olivers kicking is horrendous, amongst the worst in the league. Playing him as an outside mid would be a poor coaching move if we're trying to win matches. He'd be better suited to a forward role, as his kicking for goals might not be as bad as his shoddy field kicking. He showed a bit when resting forward in 2018 as you mentioned.

We don't have the right balance of players on our list. IMO we need to trade/draft in more rounded mids and cast off some of our one paced inside mids.

Agree, but as it stands we are never going to play finals.

Oliver/Petracca and Brayshaw can kick it, they've lost their ability to. Agree they've been really really poor. Technique IMO. Can be fixed.

Hope to see Jordan soon, perfect time this week!

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:12 PM, deanox said:

I really don't understand why people keep saying "Tomlinson was never a winger". Yes he has played a number of positions throughout his career, but his last two years he played on the wing for over of the strongest teams in the comp (the grand finalist). Was he the best wing in the comp? No but he was posting the position capably in one of the better teams, was available and filled our biggest weakness. He'll get back in the team and will pay a few more games. 

We do need some more silk outside though still. Probably off the HBF and HFF, or the wing of course, but the wing is hard because you need silk, endurance and speed. 

Bizarre. Leon Cameron described him as a classic utility. He often referred to him “playing a role”. Full back. CHB.  Wing. Ruck. CHF.   The Giants 2018 end of year summary describes him as a “key defender”.  He was never a full time wing player for the Giants. Never. Never for two years through 2018 and 2019.  I don’t think he’s our answer for skilled fast outside midfielder.  

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

Tomlinson was immediately looking better at CHB.  That’s his position imo

[Lord Travis 10,763]

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Tomlinson was immediately looking better at CHB.  That’s his position imo

That's where he played his best footy at GWS too IMO. Looks more comfortable across halfback.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Lord Travis

[deelusions from afar 1,861]

14 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

That's where he played his best footy at GWS too IMO. Looks more comfortable across halfback.

You might be right... but I was under the impression that he played there as Oscar was being managed.  Despite his critics, Oscar has been solid this year and I suspect against the bottom side would have looked just as good as Tomlinson.

 

In the same way that Oliver burst away from packs, I loved seeing Tomlinson doing this in the backline last night - but then you realise he's crashing through 1st and 2nd year players of the bottom side.  If he does it against good sides I'll be converted.

[DistrACTION Jackson 9,229]

Zac Williams. Let's go get him please.

[Adam The God 30,411]

I'll stick with my opinion that we have the cattle now in the midfield to tear teams apart on the inside and the outside. Langdon's running power is really important to our midfield, but Gus, Oliver and Petracca can call play inside/outside as well.

[Elegt 872]

On 8/6/2020 at 4:54 PM, A F said:

I'll stick with my opinion that we have the cattle now in the midfield to tear teams apart on the inside and the outside. Langdon's running power is really important to our midfield, but Gus, Oliver and Petracca can call play inside/outside as well.

ha good one mate. they were all on show today with their great two way running

[Adam The God 30,411]

50 minutes ago, Elegt said:

ha good one mate. they were all on show today with their great two way running

Quality post. Nice and easy.

There is nothing from my post there I wouldn't equally stand by right now. We have the cattle. Not the required consistent work rate...

Edited August 22, 2020 by A F

[Chelly 827]

It's a dire need and we have to inject some of it into the team next week because the Saints have us well covered for outside mids.

[Elegt 872]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

Quality post. Nice and easy.

There is nothing from my post there I wouldn't equally stand by right now. We have the cattle. Not the required consistent work rate...

Maybe the fact they are inconsistent with their work rates highlights the need for new outside players 

[dazzledavey36 55,347]

Its still a massive need. Vanders was exposed badly today by Hunter. He was not by himself.

We have so many one paced plodders like Vanders, Jones, Sparrow, Tomlinson who we are having to run through the wings because we have nothing else on offer. When you're playing those guys on the outside, good teams expose you.

Where is Oska Baker at? I really like his work last year, and much rather him or Hunt on a wing then a Vanders/Jones.

[Gunna’s 2,104]

Our outside mids and flankers looked slow, poorly skilled, dumb etc today. Why??? Because our inside mids didn’t win the ball. We were chasing from the first bounce. Their ball use was cleaner and enabled their outside players to do as they please. 
our outside players looked good the last few weeks, why? We won the ball in the middle. 

[Adam The God 30,411]

33 minutes ago, Elegt said:

Maybe the fact they are inconsistent with their work rates highlights the need for new outside players 

That's nonsensical.