But it is crystal clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club? Goodwin even stated that he 'asked Watts to explore his options'. The Dom Tyson SEN interview wreaked of the players dislike towards the decision. I won't post specifics as i don't care enough about persuading nay sayers to throw mates under the bus, needless to say Jack was messaged personally and while he replied professionally open-ended, the message concluded with 'it is hard to succeed when you're not wanted there.' 

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Can't lose something we never had...

I understand the frustration of many when they see a group of players from another club that is seen as commensurately talented as us take out the whole thing - and you are right it is their team ethos of frenetic pressure that they have fully committed to that is driving their success.

We had it going in the early part of the season and it fell away and I might dig deeper into why it fell away if I have some time to look at the numbers but we just looked tired tbh. And we had a few ill timed injuries and our forward line never settled - and that is where the frenzy of pressure needs to begin.

I think we can win the whole thing without Watts but I also am ambivalent about needing to 'send a message' to the playing group. The Tigers didn't need a message (Deledio leaving is not a message), they needed full belief in the direction, the ability and fitness to execute, and trust in their teammates to commit as much as the next man.

We can argue over the trust that Watts deserves to commit, that's fine, but as I am trying to scream into my monitor for the last week - removing that question mark is a really, really small part of closing the gap to the Tigers, the Swans, the Crows, et al. I think our best 6 players are a couple years away from those teams best 6, I think our depth are also behind those teams, we also seemed to run out of fuel, struggled with basic discipline, and we hadn't quite perfected how we want to play high risk handpass happy game plan of bringing the ball forward.

I don't think our views are too different.... I agree with a lot of what you've said.

The whole Watts v Goody thing is very interesting and obviously sensitive to a lot of people. It seems like people feel the need to choose a side. And because of this some here are saying there is a divide in the club. This is the utter rubbish I really hate, because the reality is there will always be friction between players and the coaches. I can't remember where I heard it (I think it was AFL teams on Fox) where they were discussing of the 44 on the list - 22 will be happy, 5 won't care etc etc.... So all this Goody v Watts is really silly IMO.   

As for JW I am not buying in to the speculation, I just want like you've pointed out 22 or 24 committed blokes to play our brand, whatever that is designed by Goody and the leadership group. If that includes JW great, if not that is fine as well.

People also tend to forget the Goody has been here at the club for 3 years, this wouldn't have been all of a sudden out of the blue decision. Until I hear any different and as long as JW is treated well which ever decision is taken, I don't really care what happens to him. That's harsh I know, but all I want is a committed 22.

Maybe I have missed something but are we sending a message to JW or maybe he's used up all of his lives?? I don't know for sure, but lets be honest he hasn't lit the world on fire. A couple good games v average opposition.... There's no doubt he can play, but it's not consistent, and hes is 26 or 27 which is the prime for any footballer.

For me personally in this whole saga, as long as JW is treated fairly and we get fair value (close enough to) and we can have 22 - 25 or whatever committed players to the cause I will consider Goody and the FD doing their jobs. But like you said @rpfc I think we are building a really good young core, and we need to keep adding pieces, and our turn will come.

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, piddz said:

But it is crystal clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club? Goodwin even stated that he 'asked Watts to explore his options'. The Dom Tyson SEN interview wreaked of the players dislike towards the decision. I won't post specifics as i don't care enough about persuading nay sayers to throw mates under the bus, needless to say Jack was messaged personally and while he replied professionally open-ended, the message concluded with 'it is hard to succeed when you're not wanted there.' 

Yep, definitely not wanted anymore. Goodwin can make it sound a mutual thing all he likes in front of a Channel 7 camera, but it's obvious who's breaking up with who.

I wonder if all the media speculation about Watts is also deemed as a distraction to the club? Jack obviously has no control over it, but I wonder if Goody & Co, are concerned with all the media scrutiny that comes with Watts and they might be worried that a successful team with Watts playing in the 2s would always cast a negative story about Watts rather than focusing on the success of the football team. Goodwin clearly gets frustrated with all the questions surrounding Jack. 

5 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Obviously the rumours that you've heard paint JW in a bad light. If that's the case, why would you find it a bitter pill to swallow if we traded him?

Mate I don't believe the rumour I heard.

I don't think trading Watts......or should I say kicking him out is a positive move. Viney, Jones, Gawn and Watts are the soul of the club  in my opinion. Let's say we get pick 25 - 30 for Watts. That seems to be there abouts what the commentators are thinking. So I ask the question are we better off with Watts or pick 25 - 30? We are not rebuilding, Watts is coming into his prime age for a tall. We are better off keeping Watts. Our team is weaker without him.

 

 

 

Just now, Grand New Flag said:

Mate I don't believe the rumour I heard.

I don't think trading Watts......or should I say kicking him out is a positive move. Viney, Jones, Gawn and Watts are the soul of the club  in my opinion. Let's say we get pick 25 - 30 for Watts. That seems to be there abouts what the commentators are thinking. So I ask the question are we better off with Watts or pick 25 - 30? We are not rebuilding, Watts is coming into his prime age for a tall. We are better off keeping Watts. Our team is weaker without him.

 

 

 

Are you certain we are kicking him out, or is that your opinion/assumption?

Soul of the club or not, if you are an untouchable like you've touted JW to be, surely you'd want more consistency out of him???

I've said this in other posts, as long as there are 22 or whatever contributors each week, I don't care what their names are.

And lets be honest, JW would struggle to be in the to 15 let alone 10 at the club

He has been shown the door.

1 hour ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

Really sad that you have so much hate and venom against a player who still is, a the moment, in the team that you allegedly support. Like to see you physically take on Jack. Or say that to his face. 

It's not hate or venom, it's disappointment. 

1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

Perhaps he doesn't want his intentions to be played in the media, like some?

He doesn't have to

i can't believe this thread has got so much momentum. The last 2 premiership teams, the Dogs and the Tigers show that you can't have guys like Watts running around who blows over in the wind. You need relentless pressure and intensity. Watts has neither but for some reason people on here are like 'oh but he has nice foot skills'. There you have it, you've prioritised foot skills before hunger and thats an amateur way of building a list. Hunger and appetite for the contest always comes first. I'm really excited about Watts going. Finally I can rock up to the footy and be one step closer to 22 men applying manic pressure instead of 21. 

9 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

i can't believe this thread has got so much momentum. The last 2 premiership teams, the Dogs and the Tigers show that you can't have guys like Watts running around who blows over in the wind. You need relentless pressure and intensity. Watts has neither but for some reason people on here are like 'oh but he has nice foot skills'. There you have it, you've prioritised foot skills before hunger and thats an amateur way of building a list. Hunger and appetite for the contest always comes first. I'm really excited about Watts going. Finally I can rock up to the footy and be one step closer to 22 men applying manic pressure instead of 21.

Oh, so it starts next year.... wish I'd stayed home for Round 23. 

By the above, the door should be a bit bigger to fit more than good old Jacky boy.

no idea what you just said

1 hour ago, Macca said:

At least we are (at times) showing that effort & attitude.  Better than never showing it all (I could name a number of entire seasons where we were bereft of effort & attitude)

But we also have to include other traits such as an excellent base level of talent,  real energy,  application and a will to win.  And great coaching and top admin.

And then we have to do all that every single week.  It's quite an ask but we've just seen the Tigers & Bulldogs do it.

All of what you mention is covered by Attitude. It is the key ingredient. 

The moment Houli put the Tigers in front yesterday, they were not going to lose. 

5 minutes earlier The Crows were in total control, but the pressure of the MCG was too much to sustain

On 26/09/2017 at 10:33 AM, Redleg said:

Everyone on DL wanted Wines instead of Toumpas. The only people who wanted Toumpas appear to be Todd Viney and maybe his assistants at the time. It was a monumental mistake.

Trengove and the GWS bloke were the best two in the draft according to every recruiter and in fact Port offered us two first rounders for pick 2 to get JT , like the Kelly deal. The GWS is not a dud as a player ( maybe as a person ) and we got Jesse for him and JT was simply cruelled by injury and an ordinary club.

Again we all seem to agree that the Prendergast period really hurt the club.

Plenty on here can claim  that they would have drafted player x, but I am sure along with that would be some duds as well.

I have said on here many times that I nearly fainted at a draft function I attended, when I was told we were taking Gysberts instead of Talia. 

The best thing is that we have Taylor now and he seems to know what he is doing. How many would have taken Clarry ahead of Darcy?Taylor was desperate to get Clarry and has been proved correct. Many other recruiters thought he had made a mistake. It is a tough gig and there have to be mistakes, it is part of the process. Not every draftee will play in the senior side, it is just plain impossible.

I congratulate you on selecting Martin, as it has turned out you were right. Were you worried a few years ago when JT was Captain and Martin was just a player and then wanted to leave.

 

I thought Neeld wanted Toumpas over Wines ?! 

41 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

Mate I don't believe the rumour I heard.

I don't think trading Watts......or should I say kicking him out is a positive move. Viney, Jones, Gawn and Watts are the soul of the club  in my opinion. Let's say we get pick 25 - 30 for Watts. That seems to be there abouts what the commentators are thinking. So I ask the question are we better off with Watts or pick 25 - 30? We are not rebuilding, Watts is coming into his prime age for a tall. We are better off keeping Watts. Our team is weaker without him.

 

 

 

I'd love to know what your definition of "heart and soul" is? Popular with the fans because he's always accommodating for a selfie or autograph? Organizes the end of season trip or golf day? 

And you say that Watts is coming into his prime age for a tall. Problem is, he doesn't play as a tall. 

I'll say it again, Jack Watts is a talent. But there are only so many times that you can go to the well and hope that he has a good season. I can live with pick 25-30 for a player who has had 1 good season in 9.

 

6 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

no idea what you just said

Sorry, would have been nice to see some hunger and appetite in round 23.

He also plays like the timid kid he was when he first started. He has more confidence with the ball in hand but his defensive pressure stuff is why he is getting the boot and fair enough. Hogan has to improve in this area too. We can't have a forward line of Hogan and Watts. Watts runs around the pressure and never straight lines the ball or man and Hogan spends too much time on the ground or staging. This is the biggest blessing in disguise

2 minutes ago, Demon77 said:

Sorry, would have been nice to see some hunger and appetite in round 23.

Round 23 has way too much focus. We were so sh!t against north melbourne twice, and what about against Freo at the G and even brisbane at the G. Pathetic efforts which are bound to happen when you have guys that choose when to dig in or not. 

 

35 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

He has been shown the door.

I just hope GNF the club will go hard again at the trade table?

54 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

All of what you mention is covered by Attitude. It is the key ingredient. 

The moment Houli put the Tigers in front yesterday, they were not going to lose. 

5 minutes earlier The Crows were in total control, but the pressure of the MCG was too much to sustain

Well Adelaide were unable to play as Richmond did - that much is true. 

What we're now seeing is a form of total football 'Aussie rules style' that the Dutch were and are so good at in soccer ... relentless pressure on the man with the ball,  all attackers can be midfielders and those attackers can also act as defenders at all times.  And the reverse applies as well ... Defend,  control & attack - every player.

When obtaining control of the ball, every player then becomes an option and the ball carrier always knows that.  The ball carrier is protected when applicable. 

Different sports but the principles remain the same.

 

Back on topic ... in relation to the above and if Goodwin is aiming for a similar style to what the Tigers & Bulldogs (last year) displayed,  certain types of players just don't fit the bill. 

We've already delisted 4 players and there may well be a few more go so ... whilst it may look like Watts is being singled out,  I'm not so sure that that is true.

 

 

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Give it a break mate...it's a bit colourful saying Jack is being "kicked out of the club"

Stop casting aspersions on Jack based on what you say are unsubstantiated rumours.

Fair enough if the club want to move him on based on his footy output and/or the ability in their mind to trade up...but don't add something else to the mix then backtrack by talking unsubstantiated rumours from outside the club.

Jack has said himself to people at a footy clinic last week that he'd been booted out. If anyone saw or can show that link please provide 

41 minutes ago, deefella said:

I just hope GNF the club will go hard again at the trade table?

problem becomes ( as the Kennel would know ) once you announce your intentions you cease to be in the drivers seat.

To make it worse, I really dont think Simon McCantwin cares less. Theyve had an agenda all year and now they get to play the last act ( or is that last rites )

If the FD/Goodwin believe Watts is, and will continue to be a bad influence on the other players, then I guess it makes sense to move him on regardless of what we get in return, or even if we pay for him to be at another club (god forbid). 

But what if that bad influence is not true or exaggerated? 

While Watts may not have the attributes to be in a GF winning team, who is he keeping out of the team that does? 

We have several other players who lack both GF-standard pressure and skill and are unlikely to improve in the next couple of years even if we make the finals (as we almost did this year with Watts and lots of other problems).    Also, it is unlikely that some random draft pick will have those attributes in the short term, and even if they did there are plenty of other 'list-cloggers' they could replace.

So unless we can swap him for a GF-style player, why not keep Watts in the team until we have more players with those GF attributes? 

It only makes sense to axe him if you believe he is a seriously bad influence whose effects on the group can't be minimised by a good coach.  I find that difficult to believe.  (I know others think otherwise.)

Whatever we get for Watts may well be used to secure a player like Lever & Goff.

If we picked up a mid 2nd round draft pick for Watts it can't be assumed that we'd then go to the draft with that pick. 

My gut feel with all this is that we need greater currency to get what we're looking for.