On radio today, some stats guru pointed this stat out.

Interesting, as the Roos mantra of "instant offence" on transition, got us playing a brand of footy in 2016 and some parts of 2017, that were breathtakingly quick from half-back.  We had AA Hibberd who was recruit of the year with his metres gained.  We had the impressive emerging Hunt.  We had Jetta who was unlucky not to be AA.  Yet despite this rebound guns, we were still slowest for ball movement.

 

 

 

So if this stat is correct, the next question is why.

 

My biased reason is what I have been banging on about for 2-3 years.  One-paced, one-geared rotating mids like Trenners, Trac, Vince, Tyson, Jones?, Lewis, Brayshaw, Salem,ANB......

Trac is OK because of his point-of-difference (clean one touch, strong, great overhead), but FCS the last type we need in this draft is another one-paced one-geared rotating mid.  Even if there is another Jordan Lewis, 3 years younger, on low wage, with leadership of Michael Voss; FCS Melbourne fill our void, don't over-stock on what we have in abundance.

Our play-on handball did get a bit predictable, especially when teams pressed up and closed our space at half-back and wing.  The handball receiver would get sucked close to the player with the ball, and not maintain width.

 

 

 

What is your reason for our sluggish ball movement?

 

 

pTGR

 

Ball movement is not about the speed of your players.

Stats hmm

Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th

Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th

Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th

Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9

Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th

See a trend here ?

I find this staggering to be honest. When we played really poorly (in say 5 or 6 games for the entire year), we struggled with our ball movement. The rest of time, it was very often exhilaratingly quick. 

Strange...

36 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Ball movement is not about the speed of your players.

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

7 minutes ago, TGR said:

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

I'd like a bit of confirmation that the stat you've based this thread on is correct. However it's an interesting topic so I'll briefly throw in a couple of alternate - or additional theories.

Skills & structure moreso than footspeed.

The great Hawthorn sides of recent years relied on precise kicking to get through opposition pressure and get the ball moving. We have too few good users and too many butchers. Our handball efficiency needs to improve significantly as well. Close enough should not be considered good enough.

Structurally I think we employ the full court press too much. So if we force a turnover and want to get the ball moving quickly ala Hawthorn of (not so) old, too often there's no option to kick to

Also we have too many blokes right in the contest. I hate watching three players tackle an opposition player. You only need one to tackle & another trying to force the ball out. Oliver gets criticised for his one metre handballs but if his target was set up 5 metres away from the scrimmage, we'd be off to the races rather than being tackled and either losing the ball or getting held in a stoppage

No-one needs to listen to SEN more. Except for the bit where KB & Dr. Turf go at each other. That is amusing

2 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

t. Oliver gets criticised for his one metre handballs but if his target was set up 5 metres away from the scrimmage, we'd be off to the races rather than being tackled and either losing the ball or getting held in a stoppage

True.  Keeping width and trusting your tackler.  But Goody probably tried it, and we might have got opened up.  We don't know.

 

With the Roos/Sydney gameplan, Malthouse, Neeld, Rossy Lyon Mark I game-styles, you could control...go for stoppage...be boundary philic back and centre....you didn't need quick ball movement.  Roos' swans rarely came back from 4 goals down, except for 2005 SCG final when Nick Davis probably played the best quarter of finals football in the history of the game, to get them up with 3 seconds to go.

 

The game has changed.  Quick ball movement gets you one-on-ones at worst in your forward half.

1 minute ago, TGR said:

The game has changed.  Quick ball movement gets you one-on-ones at worst in your forward half.

If there is someone in your forward half.

That's one of our structural issues IMHO

Because we don't kick enough and try to handball in and out of our way through congestion foot skills are [censored] house this is why we are ranked last.

Just now, Win4theAges said:

Because we don't kick enough and try to handball in and out of our way through congestion foot skills are [censored] house this is why we are ranked last.

Shhhh 

28 minutes ago, TGR said:

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

Wasn't being a smart ass to jnrmac here at all.  I just added it in-case my theory (that foot-speed and line-breaking ability correlated in some way with ball movement speed) was absolutely incorrect.

4 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

He is on a high because his team re-signed Dusty today.

Edited August 31, 20177 yr by ding

8 minutes ago, Win4theAges said:

Because we don't kick enough and try to handball in and out of our way through congestion foot skills are [censored] house this is why we are ranked last.

Slow one-paced midfields (Syd 2005, Melb 2015/16/17/18) surely prefer congestion at the source.

Edited August 31, 20177 yr by TGR

We actually kick the ball a lot. Especially from the backline. Changing angles with kick mark spin inside, kick mark spin. I have no problem with this method. Although it does reflect a lack of outside run. 

We handball like crazy from stoppages and refuse to kick blindly forward. Again, inability to actually get these handballs moving forward with momentum is more of an issue than needing to blindly kick.

We also finish well inside 50 with goals. We don't kick a lot of points. And at the other end our opponents don't because we have an open backline.

There's things I want to change in our game plan:
- Defenders to learn when to stick back and not blindly rush up. Assertive zone defending does mean running 30m forward when you could wait back and have a midfield close on the guy with the ball
- Forwards getting the balance between leading up and back right
- Mids getting handballs going to the outside by taking the receive on the move

 

But I don't particularly think we have any issues with the pace of our ball movement. Fitter players with more spread and bit more pace outside sure, but I wouldn't undo all the work that's gone in to a style.

 

 

 

The eye test ...

Compared to a lot of the other sides, we move the ball too slowly (from an overall perspective)  However, we at times do move the ball quickly.

And the leg speed of our players is slow too.  When we're playing well we play a type of 'tempo' football which makes us look quick but our base game is at the contest and contested ball. 

Stoppages suits our style generally because of Gawn and our contested ball winners (Oliver,  Jones,  Viney & Tyson)

But a number of teams worked out a way to break down our game style - more so in the 2nd half of the season.  Those teams weren't necessarily the successful teams either. 

A number of teams found a way to pressure us into mistakes and then we often got crushed on the rebound or from the oppositions spread.  The first quarter against the Pies was just more of the same as to what we'd seen previously.  Again, mainly in the 2nd half of the season.

I also believe our style of play tires the team out towards the end of the season.  The 2-way running and our own pressure that we exert comes at a price. 

I'm not sure what the answer is entirely apart from the maturity that will naturally occur and the recruitment of some skilled players with genuine leg speed.  The latter requirement is easier said than done though.  All clubs want those types of players.

I can believe this. Watching Essendon on Sunday, their ball movement is super quick compared to us. It's also how they almost beat the Swans at the SCG earlier this season. They go straight down the corridor and even spuds like Valverde and Stewart kick goals from this quick entry into the F50.

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

recruitment of some skilled players with genuine leg speed.  The latter requirement is easier said than done though. 

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

5 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

Yawn

Lewis is integral to our ball movement as he hits targets by foot, unlike many of his teammates

Speed of ball movement isn't our biggest issue; it's one of them

I'd say ability to hit targets regularly and spread defensively on transition are our biggest weaknesses

10 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

We're a work-in-progress.

We've gone from having 2 or 3 decent players to now having up to 10-12 good footballers.  And about half of those 10-12 good players had less than productive season's because of form/injury. 

It's true that we need footballers with leg speed but I'd be surprised if the club doesn't try and address that issue.  But those types of players have to be able to play the game to a good level too.  As previously stated, that's easier said than done when you're trying to evaluate high-school age talent. 

What stands out is that Hunt & Frost look so much quicker than most on our list.  I hope we hang on to Frost for that reason and in turn, coach the lad into being a decent footballer.  Watts can be a quick player too but he doesn't use his own pace to advantage. 

Trying to prise talented quick players from other clubs is difficult too - I mean, it's not as if we'd entertain the thought of letting Hunt go.

36 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.

 

36 minutes ago, TGR said:

We chose Trenners.

Nice addition to stoke up your argument but he arrived in Bailey's time...a few coaches back.

I could have told you that without looking at stats

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement.

My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession. 

8 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Stats hmm

Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th

Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th

Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th

Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9

Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th

See a trend here ?

Nein?( ??)

8 hours ago, A F said:

I find this staggering to be honest. When we played really poorly (in say 5 or 6 games for the entire year), we struggled with our ball movement. The rest of time, it was very often exhilaratingly quick. 

Strange...

Too much credence put on statistics?