Jump to content

Discussion on recent allegations about the use of illicit drugs in football is forbidden
  • IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

    Posting unsubstantiated rumours on this website is strictly forbidden.

    Demonland has made the difficult decision to not permit this platform to be used to discuss & debate the off-field issues relating to the Melbourne Football Club including matters currently being litigated between the Club & former Board members, board elections, the issue of illicit drugs in footy, the culture at the club & the personal issues & allegations against some of our players & officials ...

    We do not take these issues & this decision lightly & of course we believe that these serious matters affecting the club we love & are so passionate about are worthy of discussion & debate & I wish we could provide a place where these matters can be discussed in a civil & respectful manner.

    However these discussions unfortunately invariably devolve into areas that may be defamatory, libelous, spread unsubstantiated rumours & can effect the mental health of those involved. Even discussion & debate of known facts or media reports can lead to finger pointing, blame & personal attacks.

    The repercussion is that these discussions can open this website, it’s owners & it’s users to legal action & may result in this website being forced to shutdown.

    Our moderating team are all volunteers & cannot moderate the forum 24/7 & as a consequence problematic content that contravenes our rules & standards may go unnoticed for some time before it can be removed.

    We reserve the right to delete posts that offend against our above policy & indeed, to ban posters who are repeat offenders or who breach our code of conduct.

    WE HAVE BUILT A FANTASTIC ONLINE COMMUNITY AT DEMONLAND OVER THE PAST 23 YEARS & WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THE CLUB WE LOVE & ARE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT.

    Thank you for your continued support & understanding. Go Dees.


MFC ranked slowest for ball movement in 2017


TGR

Recommended Posts

On radio today, some stats guru pointed this stat out.

Interesting, as the Roos mantra of "instant offence" on transition, got us playing a brand of footy in 2016 and some parts of 2017, that were breathtakingly quick from half-back.  We had AA Hibberd who was recruit of the year with his metres gained.  We had the impressive emerging Hunt.  We had Jetta who was unlucky not to be AA.  Yet despite this rebound guns, we were still slowest for ball movement.

 

 

 

So if this stat is correct, the next question is why.

 

My biased reason is what I have been banging on about for 2-3 years.  One-paced, one-geared rotating mids like Trenners, Trac, Vince, Tyson, Jones?, Lewis, Brayshaw, Salem,ANB......

Trac is OK because of his point-of-difference (clean one touch, strong, great overhead), but FCS the last type we need in this draft is another one-paced one-geared rotating mid.  Even if there is another Jordan Lewis, 3 years younger, on low wage, with leadership of Michael Voss; FCS Melbourne fill our void, don't over-stock on what we have in abundance.

Our play-on handball did get a bit predictable, especially when teams pressed up and closed our space at half-back and wing.  The handball receiver would get sucked close to the player with the ball, and not maintain width.

 

 

 

What is your reason for our sluggish ball movement?

 

 

pTGR

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stats hmm

Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th

Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th

Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th

Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9

Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th

See a trend here ?

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find this staggering to be honest. When we played really poorly (in say 5 or 6 games for the entire year), we struggled with our ball movement. The rest of time, it was very often exhilaratingly quick. 

Strange...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Ball movement is not about the speed of your players.

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, TGR said:

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

I'd like a bit of confirmation that the stat you've based this thread on is correct. However it's an interesting topic so I'll briefly throw in a couple of alternate - or additional theories.

Skills & structure moreso than footspeed.

The great Hawthorn sides of recent years relied on precise kicking to get through opposition pressure and get the ball moving. We have too few good users and too many butchers. Our handball efficiency needs to improve significantly as well. Close enough should not be considered good enough.

Structurally I think we employ the full court press too much. So if we force a turnover and want to get the ball moving quickly ala Hawthorn of (not so) old, too often there's no option to kick to

Also we have too many blokes right in the contest. I hate watching three players tackle an opposition player. You only need one to tackle & another trying to force the ball out. Oliver gets criticised for his one metre handballs but if his target was set up 5 metres away from the scrimmage, we'd be off to the races rather than being tackled and either losing the ball or getting held in a stoppage

No-one needs to listen to SEN more. Except for the bit where KB & Dr. Turf go at each other. That is amusing

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

t. Oliver gets criticised for his one metre handballs but if his target was set up 5 metres away from the scrimmage, we'd be off to the races rather than being tackled and either losing the ball or getting held in a stoppage

True.  Keeping width and trusting your tackler.  But Goody probably tried it, and we might have got opened up.  We don't know.

 

With the Roos/Sydney gameplan, Malthouse, Neeld, Rossy Lyon Mark I game-styles, you could control...go for stoppage...be boundary philic back and centre....you didn't need quick ball movement.  Roos' swans rarely came back from 4 goals down, except for 2005 SCG final when Nick Davis probably played the best quarter of finals football in the history of the game, to get them up with 3 seconds to go.

 

The game has changed.  Quick ball movement gets you one-on-ones at worst in your forward half.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Just now, Win4theAges said:

Because we don't kick enough and try to handball in and out of our way through congestion foot skills are [censored] house this is why we are ranked last.

Shhhh :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, TGR said:

It is a factor surely.  If you have guys with outside speed that can break lines, get the ball out of congestion or press and develop overlap, then ball movement can only be enhanced.  

 

I probably need to listen to SEN more.

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

Wasn't being a smart ass to jnrmac here at all.  I just added it in-case my theory (that foot-speed and line-breaking ability correlated in some way with ball movement speed) was absolutely incorrect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Why do you need to add this? jnrmac is a poster who has a record of engaging in decent back and forth without this backhander seemingly dismissing his comment as uneducated and simple enough to be ripped from the 24 hour talk back radio staion for nuffie footy fans.

Like a couple other posters that come and go and come back again - why bother engaging with us unlearned fools? 

Get a blog and disable the comments and you'd get what you want.

He is on a high because his team re-signed Dusty today.

:roos:

Edited by ding
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Win4theAges said:

Because we don't kick enough and try to handball in and out of our way through congestion foot skills are [censored] house this is why we are ranked last.

Slow one-paced midfields (Syd 2005, Melb 2015/16/17/18) surely prefer congestion at the source.

Edited by TGR
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We actually kick the ball a lot. Especially from the backline. Changing angles with kick mark spin inside, kick mark spin. I have no problem with this method. Although it does reflect a lack of outside run. 

We handball like crazy from stoppages and refuse to kick blindly forward. Again, inability to actually get these handballs moving forward with momentum is more of an issue than needing to blindly kick.

We also finish well inside 50 with goals. We don't kick a lot of points. And at the other end our opponents don't because we have an open backline.

There's things I want to change in our game plan:
- Defenders to learn when to stick back and not blindly rush up. Assertive zone defending does mean running 30m forward when you could wait back and have a midfield close on the guy with the ball
- Forwards getting the balance between leading up and back right
- Mids getting handballs going to the outside by taking the receive on the move

 

But I don't particularly think we have any issues with the pace of our ball movement. Fitter players with more spread and bit more pace outside sure, but I wouldn't undo all the work that's gone in to a style.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The eye test ...

Compared to a lot of the other sides, we move the ball too slowly (from an overall perspective)  However, we at times do move the ball quickly.

And the leg speed of our players is slow too.  When we're playing well we play a type of 'tempo' football which makes us look quick but our base game is at the contest and contested ball. 

Stoppages suits our style generally because of Gawn and our contested ball winners (Oliver,  Jones,  Viney & Tyson)

But a number of teams worked out a way to break down our game style - more so in the 2nd half of the season.  Those teams weren't necessarily the successful teams either. 

A number of teams found a way to pressure us into mistakes and then we often got crushed on the rebound or from the oppositions spread.  The first quarter against the Pies was just more of the same as to what we'd seen previously.  Again, mainly in the 2nd half of the season.

I also believe our style of play tires the team out towards the end of the season.  The 2-way running and our own pressure that we exert comes at a price. 

I'm not sure what the answer is entirely apart from the maturity that will naturally occur and the recruitment of some skilled players with genuine leg speed.  The latter requirement is easier said than done though.  All clubs want those types of players.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can believe this. Watching Essendon on Sunday, their ball movement is super quick compared to us. It's also how they almost beat the Swans at the SCG earlier this season. They go straight down the corridor and even spuds like Valverde and Stewart kick goals from this quick entry into the F50.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

recruitment of some skilled players with genuine leg speed.  The latter requirement is easier said than done though. 

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


5 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

Yawn

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

We're a work-in-progress.

We've gone from having 2 or 3 decent players to now having up to 10-12 good footballers.  And about half of those 10-12 good players had less than productive season's because of form/injury. 

It's true that we need footballers with leg speed but I'd be surprised if the club doesn't try and address that issue.  But those types of players have to be able to play the game to a good level too.  As previously stated, that's easier said than done when you're trying to evaluate high-school age talent. 

What stands out is that Hunt & Frost look so much quicker than most on our list.  I hope we hang on to Frost for that reason and in turn, coach the lad into being a decent footballer.  Watts can be a quick player too but he doesn't use his own pace to advantage. 

Trying to prise talented quick players from other clubs is difficult too - I mean, it's not as if we'd entertain the thought of letting Hunt go.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.

 

36 minutes ago, TGR said:

We chose Trenners.

Nice addition to stoke up your argument but he arrived in Bailey's time...a few coaches back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement.

My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Stats hmm

Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th

Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th

Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th

Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9

Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th

See a trend here ?

Nein?( ??)

8 hours ago, A F said:

I find this staggering to be honest. When we played really poorly (in say 5 or 6 games for the entire year), we struggled with our ball movement. The rest of time, it was very often exhilaratingly quick. 

Strange...

Too much credence put on statistics?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    DEPTH CHARGE by Whispering Jack

    The jubilation on the coach’s face as he danced a celebratory jig by the playing bench after the final siren sounded to record his team’s four-point victory over the Demons when the teams last met, said it all.    On that rainy Friday night at the Adelaide Oval, Ken Hinkley’s young midfield secured much more than four points on offer. The victory over one of the big dogs of the competition after a succession of wins over some of its lesser lights gave his team respect and validation fo

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Monday 25th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Demon Dynasty & Kev Martin were trackside at Gosch's Paddock today to bring you their observations from training. DEMON DYNASTY'S TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Kade Chandler's left knee heavily strapped. BBB, Spargs & Jake Lever also in rehab group. Jake Bowey solo running separate kicking/sprint/agility drills. Super fine morning / early arvo at Gosch's for the boys to blow out some cobwebs. Choco initially had the light duties / rehab group

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter. By the time they worked out it was game on, their opponents from Box Hill had accumulated five goals and, if the game wasn’t over, it might as well have been. For a se

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head. The Demons have now won nine of their last ten encounters with the other result, a draw.     And like a fork, it was the multi-pronged options that Melbourne had all across the ground.  It certainly helped that Hawthorn

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports 8

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in the Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out?

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 262

    PODCAST: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Monday, 25th March @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons victory at the MCG against the Hawks in the Round 02. You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show. If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human. Listen & Chat

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 46

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 50

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 357

    GAMEDAY: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 437
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
  • Podcast 

  • Podcast 

  • Podcast Stream 


    Open Stream in
    New Window
        TuneIn    Opens in New Tab
  • Support Demonland  



  • 2021 Premiership  

  • Social Media 

  • Non MFC Games  

    NON-MFC: Round 03

    Discussion of all the other games that don't involve the Demons in Round 03 ... READ MORE

    Demonland | Round 03

  • Match Preview      

    DEPTH CHARGE by Whispering Jack

    The jubilation on the coach’s face as he danced a celebratory jig by the playing bench after the final siren sounded to record his team’s four-point victory over the Demons when the teams last met, said it all ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 27

  • Latest Podcast      

    PODCAST: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The boys dissected the clinical thrashing of Hawks praising the immense performance of Christian Petracca whilst lamenting the injury toll to our defensive unit ... LISTEN

    Demonland | March 26

  • Training  

    Monday, 25th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Demon Dynasty & Kev Martin were trackside at Gosch's Paddock today to bring you their observations from training ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • Casey Report      

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • PreGame      

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head out on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out? ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 28

  • Match Report      

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Post Game      

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Votes      

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Game Day      

    GAMEDAY: Round 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Training  

    Friday, 22nd March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin and I attended the Captain's Run at Gosch's Paddock on this lovely sunny morning to bring you the following observations from the training session ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 22

  • Training  

    Tuesday, 19th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin & Walking Civil War attended Tuesday morning's training session at Gosch's Paddock to bring you the following observations ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 19

  • Training  

    Saturday, 16th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin and Dee Zephyr wandered down to Gosch's Paddock on Saturday morning to bring you their observations from the Captain's Run in the lead up to Sunday's Round One match against the Bulldogs ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 16

  • Farewell  

    Angus Brayshaw Retires

    After 167 games including the drought breaking Premiership Angus Brayshaw has made the heart breaking decision to medically retire from football as a result of a series of serious head knocks over his nearly decade of footy. We wish Gus all the best and he'll always be a hero at Demonland ... READ MORE

    Demonland | February 22

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Koltyn Tholstrup Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club’s newest recruit Koltyn Tholstrup to have a chat about his journey from the farm to the Demons, his first few weeks of preseason training, which Dees have impressed him on the track and his aspirations of playing Round 1 ... LISTEN

    Demonland | December 14

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Jason Taylor Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club's National Recruitment Manager Jason Taylor to have a chat about our Trade and Draft period, our newest recruits, our recent recruits who have yet to debut as well as those father son prospects on the horizon ... LISTEN

    Demonland | November 27

  • Next Match 

    .

    Round 03

       vs   

    Saturday 30th March 2024
    @ 07:30pm (AO)

  • MFC Forum  

  • Match Previews & Reports  

  • Training Forum  

  • AFLW Forum  

  • 2024 Player Sponsorship

  • Topics

  • Injury List  


      PLAYER INJURY LENGTH
    Jake Lever Knee Test
    Clayton Oliver Hand Test
    Oliver Sestan Concussion Test
    Steven May Ribs 1 Week
    Lachie Hunter Calf 1 Week
    Daniel Turner Hip 2-3 Weeks
    Charlie Spargo Achilles 2-4 Weeks
    Shane McAdam Hamstring 3-5 Weeks
    Jake Bowey Shoulder 7 Weeks
    Jake Melksham ACL 12-14 Weeks
    Joel Smith Suspension TBA

  • Player of the Year  


        PLAYER VOTES
    1 Christian Petracca 27
    2 Steven May 25
    3 Max Gawn 21
    4 Jack Viney 20
    5 Bayley Fritsch 19
    6 Clayton Oliver 18
    7 Christian Salem 12
    8 Blake Howes 11
    9 Jack Billings 10
    9 Alex Neal-Bullen 10

        FULL TABLE
  • Demonland Interviews 



  • Upcoming Events 

×
×
  • Create New...