Training - Thursday 5th January, 2017

[Fork 'em 6,983]

In the modern game you either need good speed or the evasive skills of blokes like Mitchell.
Not sure Trenners has either.
Hope he proves me wrong.

[Ted Lasso 19,332]

5 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

In the modern game you either need good speed or the evasive skills of blokes like Mitchell.
Not sure Trenners has either.
Hope he proves me wrong.

I think jacks amazing aerobic capacity does help but the way I see it jack is an inside mid fighting against jones, Viney, Lewis, Tyson, brayshaw and Oliver for a spot so he will struggle unless he finds a way to play an outside role without that speed 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

6 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

In the modern game you either need good speed or the evasive skills of blokes like Mitchell.
Not sure Trenners has either.
Hope he proves me wrong.

Even "slow" players like Mitchell are explosive in close in terms of acceleration and how they dispose of the ball.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

9 hours ago, McQueen said:

It's been discussed time and time again that speed isn't the crucial player attribute some of us think it to be.

Footy smarts is a long way in front and JT has oodles of that.

I expect him to play frequently this year.

I hope you're right because if this is the case we clearly have another player "jump into calculation".  He's not in anyone's "best 22" much so expectations are low.

Let me clarify my thoughts.  I recently watched the 2011 Melbourne v Essendon game where Jack played and I was reminded of his skill.  But putting it in perspective Jordie McKenzie was BOG and got 3 Brownlow votes and Gysberts and Scully were as good or better.  Jack is a good footballer but I don't see him as having any special abilities other than his overhead marking which is not much good when you're a midfielder.  It's something that will be useful on occasions but you won't be selected for it. 

Jack isn't quick, in fact I'd argue he's very slow in the first 5 metres where it counts.  He can't kick it far.  He's not a ball magnet.  His aerobic ability is blunted because although he can run all day he can't get there quickly. He's not big and bullocking like AVB.  He doesn't have strength over the ball like Petracca.  At best he'll be a middle of the road inside mid (he can't be outside because of his pace) and we have lots of them.  If he plays he replaces AVB, Tyson, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Lewis, Jones, Harmes, Vince or another mid.  So when he plays having him in the team is an incremental benefit/deficit.  Measured against those players I don't see many "benefits".

That's why I don't see "what he brings" because he is another that we already have.  As Saty says he will bring yet more competition for spots but he won't make us a significantly better team.

[binman 42,689]

9 hours ago, McQueen said:

It's been discussed time and time again that speed isn't the crucial player attribute some of us think it to be.

Footy smarts is a long way in front and JT has oodles of that.

I expect him to play frequently this year.

Agree. To an extent. In modern footy it is very important to have speed across the board, such is the emphasis on spread and running though lines. Just look at what Hunt has brought to the table for us.

It is ok to have some slowish players and even one or two quite slow players (like unfortunately Trenners is) but only if it is balanced by a number of some quickish players and one or two bolters - and of course quick ball movement. The oft used example of Mitchel also provides exactly this example of a well balanced team. His slowness is offset by the pace around him.

But as i have said before Mitchel also provides another guide for trenners. He gets the ball 30 plus times a game and of course uses it super well (and is a huge factor in initiating spread). Trengove will not get a regular senior spot unless he can also get the ball that often, And the only spot he can do so is playing out of the centre as a clearance player like Mitchell. 

On Mitchell i don't really have an idea of how quick West Coast are but if they don't have enough players who can offset his slowness then he won't be the asset he was at Hawthorn.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

18 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

 as for perceived slowness, during the repeat 200 last Thursday was again running with Trac so both must be 'slow'

Really informative post up until this point. 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to rebut a 'fact'. 

And I'm especially not sure why you're using repeat 200's against Petracca as your evidence. Firstly, repeat 200's is not a test for the kind of 'speed' in which Trengove is lacking/is being criticised for. It's merely a form of threshold training. And being paired with Petracca simply means they're at similar levels of that type of training at this point.

Petracca's burst pace/acceleration over 10-20 meters would be significantly quicker than Jack's. 

That is the type of 'speed' in question.

[Deemented Are Go! 3,677]

When's the next training session, already?

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

41 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Really informative post up until this point. 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to rebut a 'fact'. 

And I'm especially not sure why you're using repeat 200's against Petracca as your evidence. Firstly, repeat 200's is not a test for the kind of 'speed' in which Trengove is lacking/is being criticised for. It's merely a form of threshold training. And being paired with Petracca simply means they're at similar levels of that type of training at this point.

Petracca's burst pace/acceleration over 10-20 meters would be significantly quicker than Jack's. 

That is the type of 'speed' in question.

100% 

People keep saying you don't have to be quick to be good and i think most of us who have doubts over Jack agree. But the reality is we have those players by the truckload. Jones, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, CP5, Lewis, Vince, Brayshaw. None of those players are "fast" by any means. But unfortunaly for Jack those players are all capable of playing without looking like they are too slow. Through the use of a side step, muscle or a burst off the mark. When Jack plays with time and space he looks as good or better than any of them, proven by his VFL form but at AFL level without that time he just doesnt look as dangerous.

He might be able to play on the opposite wing to Stretch, using his skill and endurance on the wide open spaces of the G. But personaly I believe someone like Salem, Lewis, Brayshaw or Melksham would be better suited to that role.

[Satyriconhome 10,732]

6 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Really informative post up until this point. 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to rebut a 'fact'. 

And I'm especially not sure why you're using repeat 200's against Petracca as your evidence. Firstly, repeat 200's is not a test for the kind of 'speed' in which Trengove is lacking/is being criticised for. It's merely a form of threshold training. And being paired with Petracca simply means they're at similar levels of that type of training at this point.

Petracca's burst pace/acceleration over 10-20 meters would be significantly quicker than Jack's. 

That is the type of 'speed' in question.

In answer to your question, just get a bit bored with posters on here assuming a player can't change something, in this case Trengove's speed or as repeated ad infinitum on here the lack of.

We have hardly seen him for a couple of years, he has for the first time in those couple of years completed all sessions before Xmas and is now starting into the build up to games, he knows he needs to improve the burst speed (like every player who has aspirations to play in the middle)  so now he has the body that will allow this, he is working on improving, as he did today at training

[Gator 17,281]

7 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

I hope you're right because if this is the case we clearly have another player "jump into calculation".  He's not in anyone's "best 22" much so expectations are low.

Let me clarify my thoughts.  I recently watched the 2011 Melbourne v Essendon game where Jack played and I was reminded of his skill.  But putting it in perspective Jordie McKenzie was BOG and got 3 Brownlow votes and Gysberts and Scully were as good or better.  Jack is a good footballer but I don't see him as having any special abilities other than his overhead marking which is not much good when you're a midfielder.  It's something that will be useful on occasions but you won't be selected for it. 

Jack isn't quick, in fact I'd argue he's very slow in the first 5 metres where it counts.  He can't kick it far.  He's not a ball magnet.  His aerobic ability is blunted because although he can run all day he can't get there quickly. He's not big and bullocking like AVB.  He doesn't have strength over the ball like Petracca.  At best he'll be a middle of the road inside mid (he can't be outside because of his pace) and we have lots of them.  If he plays he replaces AVB, Tyson, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Lewis, Jones, Harmes, Vince or another mid.  So when he plays having him in the team is an incremental benefit/deficit.  Measured against those players I don't see many "benefits".

That's why I don't see "what he brings" because he is another that we already have.  As Saty says he will bring yet more competition for spots but he won't make us a significantly better team.

I watched that game as well and thought Trengove was noticeably smoother and quicker off the mark.  Obviously not express, but you didn't think there was any liability, which is very different to his injury years.

When I think of Bartel, and as you know Trengove has often been compared to him, I don't see any overly special traits other than his marking.  I wouldn't say Bartel was a "ball magnet", although he averaged 26-28 disposals in his best years, more-so he was a very smart and brave footballer who just did everything very well.  Other than speed Bartel had no weakness.  I see Trengove in a similar light, although much of his development has been robbed by injury.  

It will be interesting to see how he goes this year.  If his movement is markedly better and he plays 8-10 games it wouldn't surprise me if they gave him another year and from there who knows.  Or he may do enough to gain interest from other clubs.  You'd just love to see him given a level playing field.  A skilful and brave player who just does everything really well get games in the AFL.  But if his movement is a liability at this level clearly he's finished.  

 

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

21 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I watched that game as well and thought Trengove was noticeably smoother and quicker off the mark.  Obviously not express, but you didn't think there was any liability, which is very different to his injury years.

When I think of Bartel, and as you know Trengove has often been compared to him, I don't see any overly special traits other than his marking.  I wouldn't say Bartel was a "ball magnet", although he averaged 26-28 disposals in his best years, more-so he was a very smart and brave footballer who just did everything very well.  Other than speed Bartel had no weakness.  I see Trengove in a similar light, although much of his development has been robbed by injury.  

It will be interesting to see how he goes this year.  If his movement is markedly better and he plays 8-10 games it wouldn't surprise me if they gave him another year and from there who knows.  Or he may do enough to gain interest from other clubs.  You'd just love to see him given a level playing field.  A skilful and brave player who just does everything really well get games in the AFL.  But if his movement is a liability at this level clearly he's finished.  

 

Agree with all of that other than I don't think Bartel was that slow.

[Mach5 4,767]

A bit late to the party, but speaking from my own limited experience, I think there is some value in these camps.

Around 2000 I went through one based in Lorne as an 18-year-old, run by a mob that had apparently put multiple AFL clubs through their paces a few times. I often think back to the self-belief it gave me at a young age, in terms of what I was physically & mentally capable of. There was also a focus on problem solving when fatigued & at times I stood up, giving others belief in my ability at a time when I was struggling to find my place and emerge in a core group of men much older and more mature than me. Very suddenly, blokes who had never really given me the time of day, were saying hello & knew my name. All footy clubs have their cliques & it gave me a profile. I had a greater understanding of their capabilities and temperaments. Bonding not so much, but maybe it enabled bonding at a later stage. 

Most of all, I still go to Lorne & marvel at my ability to run up and down those steep hills repeatedly over the course of a few days, carrying logs & various other objects on my back. I had never considered myself capable of such feats & the exercise had me pushing well beyond where I thought my limits lay. Something I definitely would have drawn on had I taken my footy seriously & made a "career" of it.

As others have touched on, those operating the camps have the biggest influence on the outcomes, second only to the participants themselves. Approaching it with a less than ideal mindset will produce a sub-optimal result. And the facilitators must obviously be competent at the service they are attempting to provide, rather than just blokes with SAS experience on their CV who think they can make an easy buck by bullying civilians for a few days.

Personally, I'd expect someone like McCartney or Goodwin to have participated in multiple camps of this ilk and have a great understanding of the value and benefit to gained from them, with the right facilitators.

Criticisms based on injuries are narrow-minded in my opinion, and they can just as easily happen at Gosch's.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Mach5

[Tim 3,413]

Interesting insight Mach. The benefits are not easy to quantify, and agree that one would have to trust the experience and judgement of Goodwin, Mahoney and co. as to the efficacy of such a camp.

[Mach5 4,767]

10 hours ago, Tim said:

Interesting insight Mach. The benefits are not easy to quantify, and agree that one would have to trust the experience and judgement of Goodwin, Mahoney and co. as to the efficacy of such a camp.

Agree, but reading my sentiments back again makes me aware that I trusted Mark Neeld to have some idea of what he was talking about!!

Mind you, Goodwin, McCartney et al have a more-impressive pedigree. I see Goodwin as our Luke Walton.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

On 9 January 2017 at 11:24 AM, ArtificialWisdom said:

100% 

People keep saying you don't have to be quick to be good and i think most of us who have doubts over Jack agree. But the reality is we have those players by the truckload. Jones, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, CP5, Lewis, Vince, Brayshaw. None of those players are "fast" by any means. But unfortunaly for Jack those players are all capable of playing without looking like they are too slow. Through the use of a side step, muscle or a burst off the mark. When Jack plays with time and space he looks as good or better than any of them, proven by his VFL form but at AFL level without that time he just doesnt look as dangerous.

He might be able to play on the opposite wing to Stretch, using his skill and endurance on the wide open spaces of the G. But personaly I believe someone like Salem, Lewis, Brayshaw or Melksham would be better suited to that role.

The thing many here seem to overlook with Trengove is that he is a natural footballer, a clever footballer.

He uses his body well, he knows when and where to run, he reads the play well. He was pick 2 for a reason and he justified that selection early in his career, i.e. prior to being crippled with injury and his development being cruelled somewhat by Neeld. Scully was AA last year and I preferred Trengove to Scully as a player early in their respective careers.

It's self evident that Trengove will need to regain AFL level mobility etc to make it, but he is a disciplined, aerobic beast and, above all, he is a natural footballer. He is able to float into the forward 50 and kick goals. He is a very strong mark. If he gets his body back to where it WAS previously, he'll surprise a few here.

Fingers crossed - he could be the 'feel good' story of 2017. Finals for the Demons and Trengove firmly entrenched in the 22 and contributing significantly each week would be simply fantastic.

C'mon Jack!

 

 

[daisycutter 29,604]

12 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

The thing many here seem to overlook with Trengove is that he is a natural footballer, a clever footballer.

He uses his body well, he knows when and where to run, he reads the play well. He was pick 2 for a reason and he justified that selection early in his career, i.e. prior to being crippled with injury and his development being cruelled somewhat by Neeld. Scully was AA last year and I preferred Trengove to Scully as a player early in their respective careers.

It's self evident that Trengove will need to regain AFL level mobility etc to make it, but he is a disciplined, aerobic beast and, above all, he is a natural footballer. He is able to float into the forward 50 and kick goals. He is a very strong mark. If he gets his body back to where it WAS previously, he'll surprise a few here.

Fingers crossed - he could be the 'feel good' story of 2017. Finals for the Demons and Trengove firmly entrenched in the 22 and contributing significantly each week would be simply fantastic.

C'mon Jack!

 

 

ron, hwfua wasn't 2016 aa

2016 All-Australian team
B:	Dane Rampe (Sydney)	Alex Rance (Richmond)	Jeremy McGovern (West Coast)
HB:	Heath Shaw (Greater Western Sydney)	Daniel Talia (Adelaide)	Corey Enright (Geelong)
C:	Dan Hannebery (Sydney)	Josh Kennedy (Sydney)	Rory Sloane (Adelaide) (Vice-captain)
HF:	Toby Greene (Greater Western Sydney)	Lance Franklin (Sydney)	Cyril Rioli (Hawthorn)
F:	Eddie Betts (Adelaide)	Josh Kennedy (West Coast)	Tom Lynch (Gold Coast)
Foll:	Max Gawn (Melbourne)	Patrick Dangerfield (Geelong)	Joel Selwood (Geelong) (Captain)
Int:	Marcus Bontempelli (Western Bulldogs)	Luke Parker (Sydney)	Dustin Martin (Richmond)
	Matthew Boyd (Western Bulldogs)
Coach:	Luke Beveridge (Western Bulldogs)

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Stand corrected. He was definitely in the mix though.

 

[Caligula's Cohort! 105]

For those of you who are questioning why Goody and his team has done this type of Military training for the players... please watch this!

Let me leave you with a few quotes from this opening scene of "Lone Survivor", so that you may grasp what they are achieving here...

"Winning is a conscious decision!"

"Turn it into aggression!"

"You just proved to your body, through your mind, that you can push yourself further than you ever thought possible!"

"Whatever you have to do, just find an excuse to win!"

For those of you who don't know what the Australian Army Corps Values are... They are Courage, Respect, Initiative and Teamwork. Without those four pillars, we do not achieve victory. The MFC staff are following a plan that is proven to work. I've done this training before and I believe it makes you a better version of yourself! Whether we make finals or not, this training will hold us in good stead. And yes... I'm a current serving member of the Australian Army.

 

[Tough Kent 2,137]

17 minutes ago, Caligula's Cohort! said:

For those of you who are questioning why Goody and his team has done this type of Military training for the players... please watch this!

Let me leave you with a few quotes from this opening scene of "Lone Survivor", so that you may grasp what they are achieving here...

"Winning is a conscious decision!"

"Turn it into aggression!"

"You just proved to your body, through your mind, that you can push yourself further than you ever thought possible!"

"Whatever you have to do, just find an excuse to win!"

For those of you who don't know what the Australian Army Corps Values are... They are Courage, Respect, Initiative and Teamwork. Without those four pillars, we do not achieve victory. The MFC staff are following a plan that is proven to work. I've done this training before and I believe it makes you a better version of yourself! Whether we make finals or not, this training will hold us in good stead. And yes... I'm a current serving member of the Australian Army.

 

The power of the mind. It can do incredible things.

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

2 hours ago, Tough Kent said:

The power of the mind. It can do incredible things.

Like make  you believe a movie is real life.

[Tough Kent 2,137]

9 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Like make  you believe a movie is real life.

What incredible insight. 

[rjay 24,888]

7 hours ago, Caligula's Cohort! said:

Like make you believe a movie isn't? just because you see a glimpse of what we do in training, gives you a right to call it false... you hold no argument in this debate DeeSpencer... You're just an armchair critic. I'll put this to you, would you want Defence personnel going through this type of training? pushing the limits, working as a team to achieve their goal? when they think all is lost, are tired, stressed, hungry and find a 2nd gear to keep going. You don't find that! playing nice guys on Gosch's paddock... It's found when everyman reaches their limit... when everyone's had enough. But you still find it in you to win. That's it... that's all it is, it's about you, the man next to you, and the team. And that's it. That's how winners think!

The defence forces don't just do 2 days of this type of training...big difference and bares no relevance to what our players did.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,826]

10 minutes ago, rjay said:

The defence forces don't just do 2 days of this type of training...big difference and bares no relevance to what our players did.

Exactly, the comparison to the Navy Seals "hell week" and reinforcement cycle is just silly. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,693]

12 hours ago, Tough Kent said:

The power of the mind. It can do incredible things.

 

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Like make  you believe a movie is real life.

Or make you believe you can walk over hot coals.