Forward-Ruck and team balance

[DemonWA 3,936]

A forward-ruck is like the Bowling allrounder in Cricket. Teams only have them because a good team had a good one once or twice.

Just like the aussie test team shouldn't pick one for the sake of it, we shouldn't play one just because. Gawn has had a break out season and if he can maintain that sort of form he wont need much more than a chop out every now and then

[Moonshadow 17,678]

11 minutes ago, jako13 said:

The apples were big then too Moony -White was very much an undersized  ruck, but had a phenomenal leap to get over the big boys. Just used the example as saying at 6'4 or 5 jack is definitely  tall enough to compete woth the part timers - not saying he should ho toe to toe with mumford for example - unless its one of those situations where it just happens once a game. But his mobility and body awareness  will hold him in good stead against the part time rucks.

Between him and a more lumbering Pedersen type who is a full inch shorter than jack he is a far far better option and one that will get better with time and bulk. My thoughts are it has and will continue to jelp his game as opposed to hinder it and we are better if he does it with hogan and a 3rd tall (weed or other) than a less mobile traditional fwd/ruck type. 

I think we will continue to disagree on this and thats ok

Sure, no problem with that.

White was a true ruck that could compete with any other at the time, where it was uncommon for big men to be over 200cm. Jack is an undersized second ruck in a land of modern giants.

Pedo has a ruckman's body, maybe not the height, but he has more strength that Jack. Hate to say it of any player, but he is also of less value going forward. Jack can be a good 3rd man up, where the body impact isn't as great, but using him in the ruck will hopefully be a short term tactic.

I look away every time I see Jack in the ruck, not because he cannot compete, but because of the risk.

 

[Moonshadow 17,678]

17 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Imagine if we could get someone like Steff Martin! 

Fitzy!

[spirit of norm smith 16,596]

Zac Clarke as the backup

[Adam The God 30,540]

13 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I've been a big proponent of our need to recruit a forward-ruck.  Someone who can play mostly forward, go into the ruck and give Max a rest and possibly ruck well enough allow Max to go forward as a marking threat.  That means they'd be playing at least 60% game time forward so they'd need to be good there.

When I've thought about it further with our current personnel and team balance I don't think we could fit a forward-ruck together with Hogan, Weidemann and Watts forward.  We'd be too top heavy across the 22.  These players play 85%+ game time, so they'll all be on the field together a significant amount.  Bench rotation spots are best used for mids, half-backs and half-forwards.

I think we need to persist with Watts in the ruck and we should expect Weidemann to start to ruck also as his body matures.

I think the club realised this last off season.

[DeeSpencer 26,091]

Ruck
CHF
FF
3rd tall

Gawn: 70 % ruck, 20 % full forward, 10% bench
Hogan: 65 % CHF, 20 % full forward, 15% bench
Weids: 55 % full forward, 30 % CHF, 15 % bench
Watts: 60 % third tall, 30 % wing and half back, 10% bench

2nd ruck: 30 % ruck, 40% 3rd tall, 5 % FF, 5% CHF, 20% bench

I think there's room for a 2nd ruck who does a decent share of the ruck work. However they have to be able to contribute forward. 

The biggest impediment to playing another tall is the defensive efforts from Watts, Weids and Hogan are all pretty bad right now. Hogan doesn't tackle. Watts doesn't tackle nearly well enough for a player of his speed and game sense. Weid's is still a kid who couldn't move well enough to catch anyone at this stage. So those guys would have to develop and we'd have to add a ruck/forward with at least some mobility and defensive smarts. A speedy player like Josh Jenkins would be better than Vickery and I'm sure that's why we started Frost forward but he doesn't have the smarts and isn't really big enough to ruck.

The other thing that would be necessary would be Watts being able to rotate on to the wing and behind the ball without ruining the improvement he made this year. Everything about his game says he should be able to handle rotating up to a wing but he's been shuffled around so many times that who knows if it will work. Similarly his contested work has improved a lot so he should be more confident in playing half back on an opponent if needed although I mainly see him going there as a spare late in quarters or when needed. 

 

[MadAsHell 4,217]

Another problem with keeping Watts as a part timer in this role is if you look at all the premiers this century, the filth in 2010 are the only team that had one specialist ruck with a part time pinch hitter in Leigh Brown.  All the others have played two rucks, with one playing mainly as a forward.

As many have pointed out, Weideman is still very raw.  Best case scenario and Hogan stays, there's no problem with making the Weed earn his spot at Casey and having him come in when injury/suspension/form warrants it.

Tom Campbell from Western Bulldogs & even Shaun McKernan at Essendon are two role players that I think are worth looking at who could fill this void.  Certainly not stars, but fit the club bill of competative and physical players.  Both mentioned in the attached article and both have reasonable numbers.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-14/delisted-whos-on-the-chopping-block-at-your-club

TOM CAMPBELL

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/player-profile/tom-campbell

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/114689/Tom-CAMPBELL

SHAUN McKERNAN

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/player-profile/shaun-mckernan

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/112847/Shaun-MCKERNAN

Campbell turns 25 this off season and McKernan has just turned 26, so both have plenty left in the tank.  On top of this I'd like to see the club draft Darcy Cameron from Claremont out of the WAFL, who's another option for this role going forward.  Has played mainly forward this year to good effect while previously mainly being a pure ruckman.  Only turned 21 this year, so has had some miles in his legs already, so if required should be ready for senior football.  36 goals in 2016 while averaging more then 12 hit outs a match.

http://www.wafl.com.au/players/view/4672

Just my thoughts anyway.

[old55 23,797]

7 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Ruck
CHF
FF
3rd tall

Gawn: 70 % ruck, 20 % full forward, 10% bench
Hogan: 65 % CHF, 20 % full forward, 15% bench
Weids: 55 % full forward, 30 % CHF, 15 % bench
Watts: 60 % third tall, 30 % wing and half back, 10% bench

2nd ruck: 30 % ruck, 40% 3rd tall, 5 % FF, 5% CHF, 20% bench

I think there's room for a 2nd ruck who does a decent share of the ruck work. However they have to be able to contribute forward. 

The biggest impediment to playing another tall is the defensive efforts from Watts, Weids and Hogan are all pretty bad right now. Hogan doesn't tackle. Watts doesn't tackle nearly well enough for a player of his speed and game sense. Weid's is still a kid who couldn't move well enough to catch anyone at this stage. So those guys would have to develop and we'd have to add a ruck/forward with at least some mobility and defensive smarts. A speedy player like Josh Jenkins would be better than Vickery and I'm sure that's why we started Frost forward but he doesn't have the smarts and isn't really big enough to ruck.

The other thing that would be necessary would be Watts being able to rotate on to the wing and behind the ball without ruining the improvement he made this year. Everything about his game says he should be able to handle rotating up to a wing but he's been shuffled around so many times that who knows if it will work. Similarly his contested work has improved a lot so he should be more confident in playing half back on an opponent if needed although I mainly see him going there as a spare late in quarters or when needed. 

 

Thoughtful post thanks.  With your scenario you've got all 5 on the ground 30% of the time but you've addressed this by using Watts in the midfield for that 30% so there's only 3 talls forward.  I still think the cost of the extra midfielder in the 22 is prohibitive.  Better to ruck Watts and/or Weideman.

[DeeSpencer 26,091]

46 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Thoughtful post thanks.  With your scenario you've got all 5 on the ground 30% of the time but you've addressed this by using Watts in the midfield for that 30% so there's only 3 talls forward.  I still think the cost of the extra midfielder in the 22 is prohibitive.  Better to ruck Watts and/or Weideman.

Next year I think Pedda or other ruck/forward will compete with Weids for a spot and Watts could be rucking. But medium to long term as our midfield mature and rotate more we might be able to go taller. Depends on conditions and opponents as well. 

We certainly need to trade or draft someone as replacements for Dawes/Pedersen/Max King. I guess the question is how urgent that has to be. 

Jackson Trengove is out of contract next year and whilst I'm not sure if he can be effective as a forward (maybe a tall defensive forward?) he could be a nice back up ruck, especially as he'd give a change of pace to Gawn in there. 

[Nasher 33,617]

13 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Imagine if we could get someone like Steff Martin! 

I know you're only kidding, but I think you've forgotten that Martin was utterly hopeless as a forward and that's why he was traded in the first place.  

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Not a huge fan of Watts in the ruck, other than maybe in the forward line, Watts>Weid easily as a target, Weid doesn't seem to the ruck/forward type and I'd hesitate to play him alongside Watts and Hogan for that reason, for the time being he is basically the back up Hogan

[DeeSpencer 26,091]

5 hours ago, Nasher said:

I know you're only kidding, but I think you've forgotten that Martin was utterly hopeless as a forward and that's why he was traded in the first place.  

And hasn't even played well when used in a 2 ruck system at Brisbane. By far his best footy has been when playing lots of minutes in the ruck so he's able to run like another midfielder. 

Given we traded him away for nothing I'd like to still have him, but there's every chance he'd have been delisted if he was still at Melbourne. He only got a chance at Brisbane when they had a run of injuries.

[DeeSpencer 26,091]

One of those rubbish trade rumour accounts has linked us with Nathan Vardy. No idea if it's true but if he's cheap he's well worth the gamble. 

[dazzledavey36 55,454]

Anything is an upgrade on Jake Spencer.

9 years for 36 games is borderline just laughable. For someone who has just lived off 1 year contracts for doing jack all is such a mighty effort.

Edited September 14, 2016 by dazzledavey36

[Biffen 12,947]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Anything is an upgrade on Jake Spencer.

9 years for 36 games is borderline just laughable. For someone who has just lived off 1 year contracts for doing jack all is such a mighty effort.

Just needs one more pre-season.

Big guys take longer.

Hard to get a game behind the AA ruckman.

but yes ,4 games a year is not ideal although I like Frank.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

10 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Just needs one more pre-season.

Big guys take longer.

I prefer it when you post jokes.

 

[Adam The God 30,540]

5 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Anything is an upgrade on Jake Spencer.

9 years for 36 games is borderline just laughable. For someone who has just lived off 1 year contracts for doing jack all is such a mighty effort.

Calm down, DD. I'm not sure that's warranted. 

[Moonshadow 17,678]

14 hours ago, Nasher said:

I know you're only kidding, but I think you've forgotten that Martin was utterly hopeless as a forward and that's why he was traded in the first place.  

In the past, but he was also very useful as a key back at the time, which illustrates his diversity and potential. He was raw and showed glimpses of the future. For a team as hopeless as Brisbane to see him become a handy player speaks volumes. We chose Mitch instead and are the poorer for it, but that's an alternative reality, hey?

Edited September 14, 2016 by Moonshadow