Changes vs Carlton

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I prefer to see guys standing by themselves in the 50 because Hogan and Pedersen are keeping the defenders busy   Bugg, Brayshaw, Jetta, Tyson  teams expect us to look for Hogan when we don't we are getting easy goals    he'll start kicking them again   I expect to see him going through the midfield now and again next year     as long as we are kicking 100 points and he doesn't feature heavily on the scoresheet what is not to like

Well he'll be the most expensive decoy forward of all time. That's one thing not to like.

 

[leehow 303]

38 minutes ago, stuie said:

 

37 minutes ago, stuie said:

 

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

 

Dunno what happenned with my quoting here.

 

Stuie, do you honestly believe that it is in the club's best interests not to play Hogan this week?

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:11 PM, stuie said:

Well he'll be the most expensive decoy forward of all time. That's one thing not to like.

 

He's kicked 40 goals, still 12th in the league or something, has been in the top 10 for a good chunk of the year, not bad for a second year player. 

While he's not impacting the score board the way i'm sure everyone would like he's still working hard, creating space and he's a bloody smart footballer, he's clearly ahead of anyone else you're likely to replace him with on our list. 

I have absolute faith Jesse will be our best forward for a long time, and that's not a knock on anyone, Watts has become a very good player and i rate Weiderman as one of the better talents on our list but if you compare Jesse's first two years i reckon he matches if not beats any other forward in the last 15 years in terms of what they've done in their first two seasons.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

44 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We are not back in the 70's our supposedly best midfielder was tagged last week and somebody else stepped up   if Hogan competes and brings the ball to ground and creates opportunities for other players   he is playing his role  as he grows and matures he will kick goal or goals each game, doesn't matter if he doesn't coz we have goalkickers on every line now which is the way it should be

He hasnt brought ball to ground or created opportunities for other players on a reg basis for a quite a while now Saty nor is he very accurate of late. Goes the accuracy goes the General form. Just ask Cloke.

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, leehow said:

Dunno what happenned with my quoting here.

 

Stuie, do you honestly believe that it is in the club's best interests not to play Hogan this week?

Where exactly have I said that?

 

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, Abe said:

He's kicked 40 goals, still 12th in the league or something, has been in the top 10 for a good chunk of the year, not bad for a second year player. 

While he's not impacting the score board the way i'm sure everyone would like he's still working hard, creating space and he's a bloody smart footballer, he's clearly ahead of anyone else you're likely to replace him with on our list. 

I have absolute faith Jesse will be our best forward for a long time, and that's not a knock on anyone, Watts has become a very good player and i rate Weiderman as one of the better talents on our list but if you compare Jesse's first two years i reckon he matches if not beats any other forward in the last 15 years in terms of what they've done in their first two seasons.

 

Again, "on form" Watts is currently our best forward. It's not even a debate.

 

[deespicable me 1,498]

I think he should stay in but I also think "he has much to learn young superstar forward".

In the meantime sign him up for $500,000 a year which is all he's probably worth just at the moment and then he can explode on the scene next year.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:23 PM, stuie said:

Again, "on form" Watts is currently our best forward. It's not even a debate.

 

If you're talking about the last month, (on form is such a vague thing ) definitely, based on a body of work over the year, i think Hogan, Watts has had a great year But Hogan has copped the best defender every week and still kicked his 40 goals. 

 

[binman 43,922]

5 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

He hasnt brought ball to ground or created opportunities for other players on a reg basis for a quite a while now 

Disagree rusty. As Prodee notes an opposition player rarely marks the ball when Hogan is in the marking contest. Therefore if he doesn't clunk it it inevitably comes to ground. The goal Kent snagged off the pack was a good example. And by taking the best defender and being doubled team it allows other players, as Viney noted in an interview this week, to 'get off the chain'. Watts is huge beneficiary of this. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by binman

[leehow 303]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

Where exactly have I said that?

 

You haven't, I'm asking you a question, because you seem to want to argue with every single person that says that Hogan will not be dropped. We all know he isn't in the best of form, we all know he hasn't kicked a goal for weeks. Regardless, he is clearly our best forward, and there is no way that the coaches will be dropping him. He obviously has areas of his game that need to be worked on, and he and the coaches would know that, but there is nothing to be gained by sending him back to the VFL. Those areas will be worked on at training, and in the off-season.

[Samael 560]

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Absolute rubbish, you ask Jack Viney a question, he answers.........just because it doesn't agree with your view........I have asked a few of the players about the team at present......main mantra is "you don't play the role assigned to you, you don't play", Hogan gets picked, that will do me

The club also says that it will be playing those who's form warrants it. Hogan is out of form and hasn't looked good for weeks. He could do with a spell at Casey and I am sure if it were eaarlier in the season he would be in the magoos. He really needs to work on his kicking.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

3 minutes ago, deespicable me said:

I think he should stay in but I also think "he has much to learn young superstar forward".

In the meantime sign him up for $500,000 a year which is all he's probably worth just at the moment and then he can explode on the scene next year.

I would not be in a hurry to sign him until or unless he fixes that kicking action.

He is only as valuable as his accuracy at goal from 50 and less. 

Having said that, if he does fix it you would want to have the ink jar and piggy bank very handy 

[stuie 7,374]

8 minutes ago, leehow said:

You haven't, I'm asking you a question, because you seem to want to argue with every single person that says that Hogan will not be dropped. We all know he isn't in the best of form, we all know he hasn't kicked a goal for weeks. Regardless, he is clearly our best forward, and there is no way that the coaches will be dropping him. He obviously has areas of his game that need to be worked on, and he and the coaches would know that, but there is nothing to be gained by sending him back to the VFL. Those areas will be worked on at training, and in the off-season.

 

4 hours ago, stuie said:

I'm not saying he should be dropped, I'm just saying if he ends up going back to the VFL for a game or two to work on certain things, it's not the end of the world, but rather it's just a normal part of development. It's not his talent that he needs to work on, but rather his attitude, work rate and defensive pressure. It's not all about him, it's not just about the rest of the team having to adjust to him, he's a part of the team and should be treated no differently to anyone else.

 

 

[leehow 303]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

 

 

So do you think it is in the best interests of the club for him to go back to the VFL this week?

Edited August 19, 2016 by leehow

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

10 minutes ago, binman said:

Disagree rusty. As Prodee notes an opposition player rarely marks the ball when Hogan is in the marking contest. Therefore if he doesn't clunk it it inevitably comes to ground. The goal Kent snagged off the pack was a good example. And by taking the best defender and being doubled team it allows other players, as Viney noted in an interview this week, to 'get off the chain'. Watts is huge beneficiary of this. 

Pedo can crash packs for about half the price binman.

One event does not maketh a forward. He isnt hitting/crashing packs the way he was last season or earlier this season mate.

He looks a diff player at the moment. 

Probably a lock this week but he has much work to do over summer if he wants to take the next step

[Lucifers Hero 40,375]

'Being dropped' is such an emotive term (and old fashioned!)  To have a chance to work on a weakness away from the spotlight is not such a bad thing, surely, especially with such a young team.  Its all part of the improvement process for each player (and avoids them becoming complacent).

And no-one is so indispensable that they can't learn in the seconds.  (After all, WBD have just dropped Stringer.  I kid you not!!)

BTW, not in anyway suggesting Hogan should go to Casey and certainly not with a couple of games to play and certainly not until he has signed his next contract!    

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[stuie 7,374]

13 minutes ago, Abe said:

If you're talking about the last month, (on form is such a vague thing ) definitely, based on a body of work over the year, i think Hogan, Watts has had a great year But Hogan has copped the best defender every week and still kicked his 40 goals. 

 

Watts has had a better year than Hogan IMO. They're numbers are almost identical, but Watts is a far better user of the ball and has won games for us. It's not about who will be better, who's more talented or anything like that. We're talking about on form. As an example, I couldn't see us beating Hawthorn with Hogan in instead of Watts if you're using form to weigh it up.

 

 

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, leehow said:

So do you think it is in the best interests of the club for him to go back to the VFL this week?

Jebus man, did you actually read my posts or not?

 

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:43 PM, stuie said:

Watts has had a better year than Hogan IMO. They're numbers are almost identical, but Watts is a far better user of the ball and has won games for us. It's not about who will be better, who's more talented or anything like that. We're talking about on form. As an example, I couldn't see us beating Hawthorn with Hogan in instead of Watts if you're using form to weigh it up.

 

 

I think the thing to consider is that Hogan has played on the best defender and often been double/triple teamed as well, i think getting the same numbers is a credit to him in that sense, Watts has had a fantastic year, but i think Hogan has been the better of the two just because of what he's delivered vs what he's had to deal with. 

I think his knee is still quite sore and that's impacted his form a little.

bit of healthy debate is a good thing, i think it really would be a flip of the coin between the two though. 

Dean Kent is another who has provided great pressure, good run and also kicked 25 goals this year.

[stuie 7,374]

Just now, Abe said:

I think the thing to consider is that Hogan has played on the best defender and often been double/triple teamed as well, i think getting the same numbers is a credit to him in that sense, Watts has had a fantastic year, but i think Hogan has been the better of the two just because of what he's delivered vs what he's had to deal with. 

I think his knee is still quite sore and that's impacted his form a little.

bit of healthy debate is a good thing, i think it really would be a flip of the coin between the two though. 

Dean Kent is another who has provided great pressure, good run and also kicked 25 goals this year.

I guess I just don't really bother with those kind of aspects. To me it's you perform or you don't.

He definitely hasn't looked right for a while, possibly some niggles even before the knee which impacted him as he's such a confidence player.

 

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:49 PM, stuie said:

I guess I just don't really bother with those kind of aspects. To me it's you perform or you don't.

He definitely hasn't looked right for a while, possibly some niggles even before the knee which impacted him as he's such a confidence player.

 

I think it definitely comes into the conversation, i mean Viney has probably had a better year (arguably ) than Dom Tyson but on the weekend Viney was tagged hard and Dom wasn't and Dom was clearly better, so different battles within battles, 

but i agree, on the last 4-5 weeks Watts has been miles ahead, and probably in the best 5 forwards in the comp so credit where credits due.

[stuie 7,374]

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I have him on ignore, but the dope you're quoting once said to me "me forward, me kick goals" as he lamented in the preseason that I had placed too much pressure on Watts to actually hit the scoreboard as a forward.  He wanted a more "nuanced" approach, as opposed to Watts actually having to perform in his 8th year.  Self-serving dill.

Needless to say, Jack will hit 40 goals in 2 days time.

Personal insults and deliberate misinterpretation are the resorts of the overreaching.

You wanted to place a goal KPI on Watts and ignore everything else, to which I pointed out he provides a lot more than just goals. He has shown that this year with his fantastic vision and delivery as well as the added scoring. He is our most skillful player and best user of the ball, but you wanted to ignore all that in favour of making it all about the scoreboard as you thought he would fail at that, which he hasn't, and he has shown you up.

Hogan and Watts are very different players. Hogan does not have the awareness, vision and skills of Watts. He is a mark and goal machine. Currently he is considered out of form due to him not impacting the scoreboard. Amazing that someone who was so firm on placing that pressure on a player he dislikes refuses to do it for a player he does like.

 

[leehow 303]

7 minutes ago, stuie said:

Jebus man, did you actually read my posts or not?

 

6 minutes ago, stuie said:

Jebus man, did you actually read my posts or not?

 

Yes, I did. You said it's not the end of the world if he goes back to the VFL because he has areas of his game to work on. You've said he is out of form, which he is. I'm asking you whether you think it is in the best interests of the club for him to go back to the VFL at such a critical time of the season? Do you think we would be better with Weideman/Pedersen/Watts? Or Pedersen, Watts and smalls?

[Dante 2,739]

Watts has been really good this year and he's played a number of roles, so you can't really compare his numbers and form to Hogans.

Watts has played forward where he's won games for us, he's played back where he's saved games for us and he's played ruck to give Big Max a chop out when required. He's been by far our most versatile player and you could say our most valuable, he may have only come to the fore this year but he's done it with a bang.

It is regrettable that we have to denigrate Watt's performance so we can compare the two players.  So what if Watts doesn't get the best defender, he still has to kick the goals or assist others, so what if he doesn't play on the best forward in defence, he still has to get to the backline to take the match saving mark.

They are both good players but there seems to be the need to match them against each other to get some sort of result.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, leehow said:

Yes, I did. You said it's not the end of the world if he goes back to the VFL because he has areas of his game to work on. You've said he is out of form, which he is. I'm asking you whether you think it is in the best interests of the club for him to go back to the VFL at such a critical time of the season? Do you think we would be better with Weideman/Pedersen/Watts? Or Pedersen, Watts and smalls?

 

4 hours ago, stuie said:

I'm not saying he should be dropped,

I would have thought that answered the question?

I was talking generally when talking about players going back to the VFL, I don't think Hogan should be dropped this week, but I also think that should he need to go back to the VFL to work on things at some stage it's not as big a deal as some here seem to want to make it to be.