Doping in Sport

[hemingway 7,627]

17 minutes ago, Macca said:

The other issue is how all these sportspeople get hold of these PED's ... my reckoning is that they're mostly getting hold of these drugs independently from different sources and in different ways from any other sportsperson.  In any sport.  In other words, they're not necessarily acting in cahoots.  Their motto is that if they're going to cheat, as few people as possible need to know about the cheating.

It's entirely possible that there isn't necessarily a common source for these PED's as well.  State sponsored drug programs, baseball (Balco) and the EFC & Cronulla are one thing but most drug cheats would probably act independently.

Which means finding a paper-trail or a whistle-blower is a bit of a futile exercise ... it largely explains why there aren't many paper-trails or whistle-blowers unless it's a state sponsored exercise or its baseball, the EFC or Cronulla.

Correct. Freely sourced in gyms, internet, and independent operators. If I was a user, I would visit a gym that I know well where easy contacts and supply can be arranged. Body builders and ex-body builders are one of the best sources for muscle building supplements. Also you can take a trip to SE Asia and pick up stuff easily although customs might be a problem. Post is used to minimize detection.  And if you want to be strong as a horse, there are plenty of vet supplements available. I am not so sure about EPO or growth hormone but presumably not that difficult to source, given the market and the every growing supply chain. 

[Macca 16,971]

Just now, hemingway said:

Correct. Freely sourced in gyms, internet, and independent operators. If I was a user, I would visit a gym that I know well where easy contacts and supply can be arranged. Body builders and ex-body builders are one of the best sources for muscle building supplements. Also you can take a trip to SE Asia and pick up stuff easily although customs might be a problem. Post is used to minimize detection.  And if you want to be strong as a horse, there are plenty of vet supplements available. I am not so sure about EPO or growth hormone but presumably not that difficult to source, given the market and the every growing supply chain. 

In Europe & the States it would be quite easy to get hold of any sort of PED.  I see that as the heartland of PED use - it's where big sport operates and where all the money is H.  What do they say ... 'Follow the money trail'

But we're not as tucked-away in Australia as many might think.  After initially being outraged by the EFC/Cronulla/Dank/Weapon/Dr Ageless/Bomba/GoldenOne scandal, I'm no longer outraged on reflection.  It all makes much more sense now that we've got more information and we know the history.

Didn't the Cats have most of those characters in employment?  Fairly sure Dank was at least a consultant and Jimmy had previous dealings with 1 or 2 of them as well. 

 

 

[hemingway 7,627]

14 minutes ago, Macca said:

In Europe & the States it would be quite easy to get hold of any sort of PED.  I see that as the heartland of PED use - it's where big sport operates and where all the money is H.  What do they say ... 'Follow the money trail'

But we're not as tucked-away in Australia as many might think.  After initially being outraged by the EFC/Cronulla/Dank/Weapon/Dr Ageless/Bomba/GoldenOne scandal, I'm no longer outraged on reflection.  It all makes much more sense now that we've got more information and we know the history.

Didn't the Cats have most of those characters in employment?  Fairly sure Dank was at least a consultant and Jimmy had previous dealings with 1 or 2 of them as well. 

 

 

And the Demons had a doctor who has made contact with Dank. From all appearances it appeared that he was going to be used as a "consultant" to the MFC. 

It did not appear to have the knowledge or approval of the club but it was getting close to an unholy alliance. 

[hemingway 7,627]

Just now, hemingway said:

And the Demons had a doctor who has made contact with Dank. From all appearances it appeared that he was going to be used as a "consultant" to the MFC. 

It did not appear to have the knowledge or approval of the club but it was getting close to an unholy alliance. 

had contact with Dank. past tense fortunately and the good doctor was dispatched in the nick of time. 

[old dee 23,791]

1 minute ago, hemingway said:

had contact with Dank. past tense fortunately and the good doctor was dispatched in the nick of time. 

If memory serves me correctly wasn't there a problem with wait was said to club and what came out shortly after.

Then the parting of company was very rapid.

[hemingway 7,627]

Not sure OD but the parting was rapid. I guess the contact should not have been made in the first place. In the case of the EFC, the contact was not made by the club doctor but by the coach, but in the case of MFC, contact was made by the club doctor who should have known better. He had not done his due diligence or was operating on the edge and taking a risk. However, it shows how quickly things can get out of hand when one person takes it upon themselves to operate outside the square. 

[Macca 16,971]

23 minutes ago, hemingway said:

And the Demons had a doctor who has made contact with Dank. From all appearances it appeared that he was going to be used as a "consultant" to the MFC. 

It did not appear to have the knowledge or approval of the club but it was getting close to an unholy alliance. 

That doctor was dismissed very quickly too ... at the time I thought it was bit of a hasty move given he may not have done anything wrong.  I'm still not absolutely convinced he did anything wrong apart from have dealings with Dank.  That in itself doesn't make anyone guilty of anything unless there's more to it than meets the eye.

But as always, we're kept in the dark about what actually went down.  Sacking the bloke so quickly tells us something though.

Of course the bigger story was the EFC scandal so the 'related' smaller story never gained a lot of traction.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Macca

[Biffen 12,943]

A seven year old child asked me about Essendon taking drugs and cheating.

He asked if they were like Russia's Olympic team.

I said it was worse because they weren't poor and without a choice like the Russians might be.

 

[bing181 9,238]

4 hours ago, Macca said:

Cycling has an issue with the Sky team but the UCI could bring in measures to make them weaker and therefore make the other teams stronger.  There was talk of grading the cyclists and only allowing the teams to have a certain amount of the better cyclists ... a salary cap (of sorts) could be brought in too.

Not disagreeing at all, and yes Sky's budget is higher than anyones ... but not THAT much higher. 10% more than Katusha, then similar to BMC, then Tinkoff etc. Sure, it's whopping compared to the smaller teams, but that disparity has always existed.

Sky have managed to snap up the best cyclists - over half their team at the tour would have been leaders on many other teams - but it's their focus and single-mindedness that makes the difference. Look at BMC, first of all they have two GC contenders, and then they have Van Avermaet going for stage wins. You wonder what might have been if the whole team was there for Porte, and only for Porte. Even that time loss with the wheel change on Stage 2 - where were the other BMC riders ready to give him a wheel?

As for doping, the subject of the thread ... the only way anyone could be doping at the upper echelons these days is through products that we don't know about. The scrutiny is so intense, as is the internal pressure, and cycling is an international sport, so what happened with the Russians and their lab is hard to envisage - the French labs don't take any prisoners. Cycling was pretty well brought to its knees through doping, and the sponsors and managers know it. Lower down, could be a different story, but I knew a pro in a smaller team who said to me that given the little amount of money involved at his level, it wasn't worth the risk. Still, no doubt it's going on, and presumably always will, it's the equivalent of the jumper tug while your opponent is running for the ball.

[Macca 16,971]

16 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Not disagreeing at all, and yes Sky's budget is higher than anyones ... but not THAT much higher. 10% more than Katusha, then similar to BMC, then Tinkoff etc. Sure, it's whopping compared to the smaller teams, but that disparity has always existed.

Sky have managed to snap up the best cyclists - over half their team at the tour would have been leaders on many other teams - but it's their focus and single-mindedness that makes the difference. Look at BMC, first of all they have two GC contenders, and then they have Van Avermaet going for stage wins. You wonder what might have been if the whole team was there for Porte, and only for Porte. Even that time loss with the wheel change on Stage 2 - where were the other BMC riders ready to give him a wheel?

As for doping, the subject of the thread ... the only way anyone could be doping at the upper echelons these days is through products that we don't know about. The scrutiny is so intense, as is the internal pressure, and cycling is an international sport, so what happened with the Russians and their lab is hard to envisage - the French labs don't take any prisoners. Cycling was pretty well brought to its knees through doping, and the sponsors and managers know it. Lower down, could be a different story, but I knew a pro in a smaller team who said to me that given the little amount of money involved at his level, it wasn't worth the risk. Still, no doubt it's going on, and presumably always will, it's the equivalent of the jumper tug while your opponent is running for the ball.

Fair enough ... I formed my view on the Sky sport team based on what the various pundits and commentators were saying ... if it's only 10% then it's not an issue.  I blame Phil Liggett!  That's of course if the budgets are all hunky-dory.  I'll take your word for it though bing.

But the issue of grading the cyclists and not letting any particular team have a glut of the well-graded cyclists is an interesting concept.  However, they'd have to change all the rules of engagement for that to happen and right now the teams tend to operate in a 'free-market' sense do they not?  The US Postal & the Discovery teams were dominant as well back in the day but we now have a better idea of why those teams were so strong

But there's no denying that the Olympics and a lot of the Olympic sports has a major issue with PED use ... but I could say the same thing about the AFL,  NRL,  Tennis,  NFL,  NHL,  MLB,  NBA,  Soccer,  Rugby amongst others.  I do think that cycling is much cleaner these days but it's not "clean"

In a nutshell, I'd rather look at all the sports that can or do have a problem with PED use ... narrowing down the focus to any one particular sport I see as quite a futile exercise.  I'll post the link below up again just in case people are coming here for the first time.

Drugbuster Pound says doping is so widespread that he no longer has faith in sport at the top

 

[old dee 23,791]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

A seven year old child asked me about Essendon taking drugs and cheating.

He asked if they were like Russia's Olympic team.

I said it was worse because they weren't poor and without a choice like the Russians might be.

 

Oh for God's sake biff how often does it have to be said.

They have no records but we know they did not take anything illegal.

 

[daisycutter 29,616]

Just now, old dee said:

Oh for God's sake biff how often does it have to be said.

They have no records but we know they did not take anything legal.

 

corrected for you, od 

[bing181 9,238]

48 minutes ago, Macca said:

Fair enough ... I formed my view on the Sky sport team based on what the various pundits and commentators were saying ... if it's only 10% then it's not an issue. 

It's not 10% for all the teams - Sky have over double what Orica Green Edge do for example. It's clear that it gives them an advantage, though a lot of the big bucks goes in building and running a Grand Tour squad, and then doing those races and everything that goes into them. If you're not sending half your team (plus everyone else they need) out for 2-3 weeks reccing all the main stages, you can start to make serious savings. Worth remembering also that while Sky have been dominating the TDF, it's a pretty level playing field everywhere else. You only have to look at the RideLondon race on Sunday in Sky's backyard ... highest placed Sky rider was 26th.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

That doctor was dismissed very quickly too ... at the time I thought it was bit of a hasty move ..

Too right it was a hasty move. The club had just told Vlad we had nothing to do with Dank, but did a quick roll call just to make sure ... only to find we had everything to do with him ... a few mild heart attacks ensue ... followed by the swift removal of Doc and Dank.

3 hours ago, Macca said:

I'm still not absolutely convinced he did anything wrong apart from have dealings with Dank.

That's a bit like saying Mark Waugh and Shane Warne didn't do anything wrong apart from have dealings with an Indian match fixer. If they continue their association, what do you think is going to happen?

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Sacking the bloke so quickly tells us something though.

Nothing that the football world at large hadn't already worked out. Viz, stay away from Dank.

We're lucky not to have half a dozen blokes training in private with the Essendon 12. Had it not been for ASADA's botching of the AOD business.

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Of course the bigger story was the EFC scandal so the 'related' smaller story never gained a lot of traction.

And thank Christ for that. How much can a koala bear?

[McQueen 17,864]

[Macca 16,971]

45 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:

Too right it was a hasty move. The club had just told Vlad we had nothing to do with Dank, but did a quick roll call just to make sure ... only to find we had everything to do with him ... a few mild heart attacks ensue ... followed by the swift removal of Doc and Dank.

That's a bit like saying Mark Waugh and Shane Warne didn't do anything wrong apart from have dealings with an Indian match fixer. If they continue their association, what do you think is going to happen?

Nothing that the football world at large hadn't already worked out. Viz, stay away from Dank.

We're lucky not to have half a dozen blokes training in private with the Essendon 12. Had it not been for ASADA's botching of the AOD business.

And thank Christ for that. How much can a koala bear?

Yeah, you've got me on the Doc/Dank bit Ted ... we just never really heard about the actual details but we can presuppose what those details might have been It was a swift departure, all the same.

I'm often intrigued how these stories that should be stories just go away without a great deal of investigation ... although the standard of investigative sports journalism in this country isn't all that great so we shouldn't be too surprised.  Plus, there are vested interests and all that.

Most people I spoke to about the EFC drug scandal were completely in the dark about the details right throughout ... we here at 'land were much better informed because of the various threads that surrounded the affair.

 

[hemingway 7,627]

4 hours ago, bing181 said:

Not disagreeing at all, and yes Sky's budget is higher than anyones ... but not THAT much higher. 10% more than Katusha, then similar to BMC, then Tinkoff etc. Sure, it's whopping compared to the smaller teams, but that disparity has always existed.

Sky have managed to snap up the best cyclists - over half their team at the tour would have been leaders on many other teams - but it's their focus and single-mindedness that makes the difference. Look at BMC, first of all they have two GC contenders, and then they have Van Avermaet going for stage wins. You wonder what might have been if the whole team was there for Porte, and only for Porte. Even that time loss with the wheel change on Stage 2 - where were the other BMC riders ready to give him a wheel?

As for doping, the subject of the thread ... the only way anyone could be doping at the upper echelons these days is through products that we don't know about. The scrutiny is so intense, as is the internal pressure, and cycling is an international sport, so what happened with the Russians and their lab is hard to envisage - the French labs don't take any prisoners. Cycling was pretty well brought to its knees through doping, and the sponsors and managers know it. Lower down, could be a different story, but I knew a pro in a smaller team who said to me that given the little amount of money involved at his level, it wasn't worth the risk. Still, no doubt it's going on, and presumably always will, it's the equivalent of the jumper tug while your opponent is running for the ball.

Excellent Bing we could talk for hours about cycling. Great response.

[Macca 16,971]

Found this article from 2015 in which Mr Richard Pound talks about the pending exposé on the Russian Federation ... he also talks about the dismay he feels about PED use in general.  

‘We will never end doping, despite our small victories’

Quote

“I don’t think we’ll ever hit this for six,” he says of the wider malaise of global doping. “There’s going to be a series of small and steady victories. I think one of our small victories is making people aware that there is a lot more cheating going on in sport than most people ever thought.”

Quote

“I find it offensive,” he says. “We have a pretty basic principle in sport that here are the rules and this is the game, this is how you play it, this is what you can do and this is what you can’t. I don’t want my kids cheated and now my grandkids and anyone else’s for that matter.”

Quote

On Russia ... “When we release this information to the world, there will be a wow factor. I think people will say how on earth could this happen? It’s a complete betrayal of what the people in charge of the sport should be doing.”

My take on this is if a Country (Russia) embarks on a PED program with sophisticated techniques on how to do it all without getting caught, shouldn't we then be apportioning a large percentage of the blame on the Country that is perpetuating the systemic program?

Of course it's not the whole country of Russia ... more so their sports administrators and hierarchy with those higher up probably involved as well.  The athletes themselves may or may not be willing participants.  What happens to the athletes who say no?

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Macca

[Willmoy1947 4,089]

Anyone know if the Russian whistle blowers had to move to Germany (to safety) well before the s##t hit the fan in relation to their Olympic Team debacle.

Because apparently the German Press (not sure on this) got hold of the information  but, once reported, no one was seemingly taking any notice of it in the IOC.

To me this does show the value of whistle blowers and organisations like WADA who get accused of sitting on their hands making sure that courageous people are ok first.

[bing181 9,238]

Whoops, spoke too soon. 3 Missed tests in a year? Not a good look Lizzie. (There's an Oscar Wilde quote in this somewhere ...)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders-react-to-the-lizzie-armitstead-case/

[Macca 16,971]

On 8/1/2016 at 10:29 PM, Go the Biff said:

A documentary following up the Iron Curtain athletes of the '70's would be fascinating. What the long term health effects were. What the rate of early deaths were etc. What was actually taken & what the doping regime was - from childhood ?

Found this documentary (the youtube link below) ... a comprehensive account of the East German systemic steroid program in the 1970's.  However, it could be argued that the steroid program started sometime in the 60's.  The East Germans started winning a disproportionate amount of medals from the 1968 Mexico games onwards. 

After winning a total of 25 medals in 1968 (9 gold) the East German tallies were as follows ...

• 1972 (66 medals, 20 gold) 
• 1976 (90 medals, 40 gold) 
• 1980 (126 medals, 47 gold) 
• 1988 (102 medals, 37 gold) 

This from a country with a population of around about 16-17 million (during those times)  The Russians were getting similar huge hauls of medals at those same Olympics.

Australia won 1 silver & 4 bronze at the 1976 games.  Many Australians were bitterly disappointed with that medal haul and thus the AIS was formed.  Of course, we had no inkling of the extent of the cheating going on back then although there was a lot of suspicion surrounding the East Germans & the Russians.  Little or no testing was being carried out too. 

Anyway, here's the documentary ...

Doping Scandal of East Germany of the 1970's

Edited August 3, 2016 by Macca

[Go the Biff 3,423]

19 hours ago, Macca said:

Found this documentary (the youtube link below) ... a comprehensive account of the East German systemic steroid program in the 1970's. 

Thanks Macca. I'll have a look

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

20 hours ago, Macca said:

Australia won 1 silver & 4 bronze at the 1976 games.  Many Australians were bitterly disappointed with that medal haul and thus the AIS was formed.

Ha ha. Yes, I remember that. It was a national disaster. It was like being told that there could be no more barbeques, no more wearing thongs, no more tinnies or utes, koalas and kangaroos would all be culled, and no sauce on your meat pie. It was like having our collective national balls cut off.

Hence the famous call of "gold gold gold" in 1980 when Michelle Ford won the swimming. She got it all back for us in one race.

[Macca 16,971]

The Record Fakers

A country of just 17 million dominated track and field for a decade. But they did so illegally.

The truth is that it was more like 2 decades and it wasn't just 'Track & Field' events. The BBC audio documentary (above) gives a shocking account about a Country once known as East Germany.  

The 'Stasi' were heavily involved and thousands of young lives were completely ruined in the pursuit of gold medals. The State-sponsored steroid program was practiced on athletes as young as 11-12 years old.  As a consequence many of these athletes were thrown out of their own gender's.

Of course, history has a habit of repeating itself so we've seen the Russians, Chinese,  Cycling,  Baseball,  Weightlifting,  American football,  various sporting clubs (e.g. Essendon & Cronulla) and numerous individuals go down the same murky path.

Cheating (doping) has never been, nor will it ever be peculiar to any particular sport.   But East Germany took things to a level perhaps only rivaled by the Russians. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,755]

And the sports only have themselves to blame. How Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete at the Athletics World Championships after twice having been found guilty of doping astounds me. Usain Bolt was beaten fair and square by Christian Coleman in the 100m. That would have been in itself a great story - the retiring, old champ being overtaken by the new (believed to be clean) young gun. But, instead, the administrators of athletics rained on their own parade by allowing Gatlin to beat both of them. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by La Dee-vina Comedia
typos