Major Shortcomings still unresolved

[Age 485]

I don't think the AFL, long term, do care about us. I personally think their long term plans are 2 teams in QLD, 2 in NSW, 2 SA, 2 WA, 1(maybe) in TAS with 4-5 in VIC. If this left them with a 14 team comp, they could almost have it back to every team playing each twice and fairly fully stadiums for every game. 

Depending on how long it takes them to get GWS and the QLD teams running properly is probably as long as we have in our current form. 

I am a real pessimist when it comes to our club, I think the last 10 years has killed me, but I also think I am a realist and I do think that long term we won't be around. 

Very happy (and hope) to be proven wrong though...

[Diamond_Jim 12,528]

18 minutes ago, Age said:

I don't think the AFL, long term, do care about us. I personally think their long term plans are 2 teams in QLD, 2 in NSW, 2 SA, 2 WA, 1(maybe) in TAS with 4-5 in VIC. If this left them with a 14 team comp, they could almost have it back to every team playing each twice and fairly fully stadiums for every game. 

Depending on how long it takes them to get GWS and the QLD teams running properly is probably as long as we have in our current form. 

I am a real pessimist when it comes to our club, I think the last 10 years has killed me, but I also think I am a realist and I do think that long term we won't be around. 

Very happy (and hope) to be proven wrong though...

The only thing we have going for us is the name Melbourne.

We have played so badly that the brand is almost trashed beyond recognition.

All you need is for a TV provider to say "we can improve ratings by reducing the number of games each weekend" and we and three others (not hard to guess but let's name  them..... Dogs, North and St Kilda ) are set for merger or oblivion.

The plus is that the demand for live sport on TV seems to be ever increasing so we may continue. From a branding viewpoint even if all the optimists are correct I cannot see a real recovery until we have had 10 years of success with at least two premierships.

And of course Blind Freddy can see some form of draft assistance heading Brisbane's way and perhaps in a few years also some for the Gold Coast.

 

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

1 minute ago, Diamond_Jim said:

The only thing we have going for us is the name Melbourne.

We have played so badly that the brand is almost trashed beyond recognition.

All you need is for a TV provider to say "we can improve ratings by reducing the number of games each weekend" and we and three others (not hard to guess but let's name  them..... Dogs, North and St Kilda ) are set for merger or oblivion.

The plus is that the demand for live sport on TV seems to be ever increasing so we may continue. From a branding viewpoint even if all the optimists are correct I cannot see a real recovery until we have had 10 years of success with at least two premierships.

And of course Blind Freddy can see some form of draft assistance heading Brisbane's way and perhaps in a few years also some for the Gold Coast.

 

The AFL needs a side to provide comic relief.

[bush demon 2,035]

22 minutes ago, Age said:

I don't think the AFL, long term, do care about us. I personally think their long term plans are 2 teams in QLD, 2 in NSW, 2 SA, 2 WA, 1(maybe) in TAS with 4-5 in VIC. If this left them with a 14 team comp, they could almost have it back to every team playing each twice and fairly fully stadiums for every game. 

Depending on how long it takes them to get GWS and the QLD teams running properly is probably as long as we have in our current form. 

I am a real pessimist when it comes to our club, I think the last 10 years has killed me, but I also think I am a realist and I do think that long term we won't be around. 

Very happy (and hope) to be proven wrong though...

Agree, except that we will be the 5th team - as the 4th  or 5th spoke of a cellar-dwellers wheel of fortune.  We have been massaged into the role of losers for a long time now, and our essential identity has  gradually whittled away. Just watching yesterday gave me flashbacks not just of early defeats this year, last year or a few years ago by the Saints, but losses stretching back to the 60's. For demon veterans, St Kilda hasn't just cut us apart on Etihad, they were doing it consistently in the 1960's. with their fleet of runners and clever small men.  we live in a culture of forgetting, and soon enough we will have an offer too good to refuse; could be some, or all of  North/ Essingdon/ Richmond, Carlton, St Kilda (perhaps) and Melbourne. 18 teams is a preposterous, bloated concept which survives only due to the massive dollars ushered in by sofa-TV football. we may well be the youngest team but that's cos we bleed experienced games players to other 'destination clubs'. ie Frawley and Jeremy Howe. 

[Diamond_Jim 12,528]

Now that the basketballers have changed their name "The Melbourne Tigers" is an easy merge (hopefully not very soon as their list is not much better than ours.)

[Chris 2,892]

48 minutes ago, Age said:

I don't think the AFL, long term, do care about us. I personally think their long term plans are 2 teams in QLD, 2 in NSW, 2 SA, 2 WA, 1(maybe) in TAS with 4-5 in VIC. If this left them with a 14 team comp, they could almost have it back to every team playing each twice and fairly fully stadiums for every game. 

Depending on how long it takes them to get GWS and the QLD teams running properly is probably as long as we have in our current form. 

I am a real pessimist when it comes to our club, I think the last 10 years has killed me, but I also think I am a realist and I do think that long term we won't be around. 

Very happy (and hope) to be proven wrong though...

We will be around, we just may not be the Demons. No way they will get rid of the name Melbourne attached to an AFL side. Just like in 96 if we do merge I will walk from teh club and probably support Geelong. Maybe the merge in 96 would have been good for me!

[bing181 9,193]

5 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Obviously, there are some things that still need to be worked on.  Our ability to have a Plan B

Not so much with not having a Plan B, it's about having a Plan A and everyone sticking to it.

"You start winning and everyone gets away from their roles and tries to get a kick and a touch. It breaks down the whole system."

Jack Viney

 

[bing181 9,193]

2 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

Some of the posts are over reactions, but there is no disputing the main point. We lack leg speed ...

Didn't look like we lacked leg speed the week before, or in the first quarter, or when we put 4 goals into them in the third ...

[DeeSpencer 25,441]

Jeepers 1 loss and people are talking about the club not surviving?

Come on. 

If we turn up each week, pay our memberships and if the club just get a few more smart list and coaching moves right we could have a really good team on our hands. Then if we market that team properly and capitalise on it the club can grow rapidly.

We've got:
- The best young key forward in the league in Hogan
- Possibly the hardest young midfielder in the league in Viney
- A pair of young midfielder/forwards who love playing with each other in Petracca and Gus
- A number of exciting to watch forwards who can form a really good group in Watts, Kent, Garlett, Weids, Ben Ken
- A classy utility who's got the talent to do anything once we get his body right in Salem - we haven't had a player as skilled as Salem since the Daniher years
- A young bull of a clearance midfielder with some wonderful hands in Oliver
- A fantastic ruckman

We are actively trying to do something with the womens football to grow the club.

We have made significant changes to the coaching and culture of the club.

I get as negative as anyone on the deficiencies of the playing list and the deficiencies/difficulties facing the administration but even I'm above this level of doom and gloom.

[—coach— 3,496]

 

2 hours ago, Chris said:

Players bought in in Roos' first 2 years and where they are:

2013:

- Cross - Is now the runner after a good couple of years. Still teaching the kids.

- Riley - delisted

- Mitchie - Playing VFL. Who knows if he will make it. 

- Vince - Playing AFL at a high standard. 

- Tyson - Playing AFL to a good standard after a poor 2nd year with us (injury didn't help)

- Salem - Sick but is a very good user of the ball and should make a good wing/HFF int eh years to come

- JKH - Struggling with injury. Who knows if he makes it, I think depth at best

- Hunt - Now playing some very good footy and showing signs of a promising future. 

- Harmes - Has the potential, is getting regular AFL games, needs to work on his consistency.

- Max King - Knee in pieces. Who knows.

- Alexis Georgiou - Played one year, played OK, was never going to make it long term, was delisted. 

- Jetta (put back to Rookie list), best thing to ever happen to Nev, has been a different player since, and a very good one at that.

2014:

- Newton - Playing VFL - Depth at best

- Garlett - Playing AFL and is very good when he is on. Seems to have fallen into a very inconsistent patch of late. 

- Lumumba - Could provide leadership and run off half back but is struggling with injuries. How many years he has left is the big question

- Frost - Has shown glimpses of being a more than serviceable back man. His height and speed were sorely missed on the weekend. 

- Petracca - Missed year one with a knee and has shown glimpses this year of what is hopefully to come. Hasn't burst onto the scene as many thought he would but the talent is there.

- Brayshaw - Had a great first year but was run into the ground. Has struggles with injury this year and from the sound of Roos on the weekend he has struggled with listening to what is required and implementing it, but he has seemed to have worked it out now. Should have a good career as a very good player. 

 - ANB - Playing VFL but must be banging down the door for an AFL call up. Who knows if he makes it or not.

- Stretch - Has shown he has what it takes at AFL level. I don't think he will be a star but he should be a good role player in future. 

- O Mac - Has been getting a game in the AFL and has done reasonably well considering where he is at on the development timeline. The fact he is playing ahead of seasoned veterans either says a lot about Oscar or more about those veterans. He has the talent to make it, he just needs time.

- AVB - Had a good first year but has struggled this year due to injury and form. Hopefully just second year blues.

- M White - Has played 3 games, won 2 of them and played well and then had an off day. People on here have called that he isn't good enough and should be delisted. He has played 3 games people, and done well in 2 of them!

 

I have put in bold the players who will make it and are either playing in best 22 or aren't due to injury. That is 14 of our best 22 who have come in in Roos' first 2 years, you asked where those players were, there is your answer, they are right in front of you. Even better is there are only 9 players bought in over this time who aren't best 22 at the minute and 1 has retired and 2 have already been judged and have been delisted, leaving 6 either on the long term injured list or trying their guts out int eh VFL, and showing some good form there too.

Brilliant synopsis Chris.

I like everyone else here is bitterly disappointed with the team yesterday, but this puts things into perspective for me. The issue really is the recruiting prior to our current staff, who recruited the wrong players and then underdeveloped those they did recruit. We have paid a hard price for that, but the upside is that the recruiting since then has been well above par.

Appreciate your effort on this.

[samcantstandya 1,042]

38 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Jeepers 1 loss and people are talking about the club not surviving?

Come on. 

If we turn up each week, pay our memberships and if the club just get a few more smart list and coaching moves right we could have a really good team on our hands. Then if we market that team properly and capitalise on it the club can grow rapidly.

We've got:
- The best young key forward in the league in Hogan
- Possibly the hardest young midfielder in the league in Viney
- A pair of young midfielder/forwards who love playing with each other in Petracca and Gus
- A number of exciting to watch forwards who can form a really good group in Watts, Kent, Garlett, Weids, Ben Ken
- A classy utility who's got the talent to do anything once we get his body right in Salem - we haven't had a player as skilled as Salem since the Daniher years
- A young bull of a clearance midfielder with some wonderful hands in Oliver
- A fantastic ruckman

We are actively trying to do something with the womens football to grow the club.

We have made significant changes to the coaching and culture of the club.

I get as negative as anyone on the deficiencies of the playing list and the deficiencies/difficulties facing the administration but even I'm above this level of doom and gloom.

Gr8 post

[Demonsone 2,032]

List is in far better shape than ever with great talent.. Will take time & pre seasons to develop the consistency etc.. Still question the Darwin conditions & the impact on the players! The afl draw is crap playing a team twice @ their home ground! How can a team have a home ground advantage twice? Wouldn't happen in any other league around the world!

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Now that the basketballers have changed their name "The Melbourne Tigers" is an easy merge (hopefully not very soon as their list is not much better than ours.)

Not a bad idea, except we'll have to teach them to handball instead of pass off.   But we'll at least we'll be better off in traffic. All we need to add is kickers.

Do you think L Gaze would like the job to coach?

[beelzebub 23,313]

6 hours ago, stuie said:

I get that, and Roos has done a good job of "steadying" as I said. But honestly, I don't think we've improved enough this year.

Nor do I . 

From my seat we look all too similar unfortunately. Some areas better, some worse.  Different folk in the same jumpers. After 3 years , and especially last year I'd have expected more quite honestly. 

There are glaring deficiencies all across the paddock. Need a FB. Need a 2nd fwd. Need more mids. Need coherency and purpose coming out the back. Need better efforts and consistency through the guts, need more and effective targets up front.

Need a better game plan.

All of this sounds familiar. It shouldn't. We should be passed this by now.

We. seem to take longer than most to get places . Bit over it.

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

32 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Nor do I . 

From my seat we look all too similar unfortunately. Some areas better, some worse.  Different folk in the same jumpers. After 3 years , and especially last year I'd have expected more quite honestly. 

There are glaring deficiencies all across the paddock. Need a FB. Need a 2nd fwd. Need more mids. Need coherency and purpose coming out the back. Need better efforts and consistency through the guts, need more and effective targets up front.

Need a better game plan.

All of this sounds familiar. It shouldn't. We should be passed this by now.

We. seem to take longer than most to get places . Bit over it.

Still think the real problem is mostly upstairs. How many games have we started  well and then fell off when pressure is applied?  

[spirit of norm smith 16,258]

WE OVERUSE HANDBALL TO PLAYERS UNDER PRESSURE.  IT CONTINUES TO BE A FLAW. 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

3 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

WE OVERUSE HANDBALL TO PLAYERS UNDER PRESSURE.  IT CONTINUES TO BE A FLAW. 

I 100% agree. Against decent opposition they have exposed our slow and poor ball use.

I hope this is an inexperience thing and not a complete flaw

[Chris 2,892]

46 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Nor do I . 

From my seat we look all too similar unfortunately. Some areas better, some worse.  Different folk in the same jumpers. After 3 years , and especially last year I'd have expected more quite honestly. 

There are glaring deficiencies all across the paddock. Need a FB. Need a 2nd fwd. Need more mids. Need coherency and purpose coming out the back. Need better efforts and consistency through the guts, need more and effective targets up front.

Need a better game plan.

All of this sounds familiar. It shouldn't. We should be passed this by now.

We. seem to take longer than most to get places . Bit over it.

I would agree if Roos was playing much the same side as 3 years ago. Fact is he has turned the whole list over and only kept a few. That means he isn't into his third year with these players, many are in their second year of AFL and some in their first. Unlike the dogs and Saints we didn't have a solid base to work from and climb quickly. We are only now where the dogs were 2 to 3 years ago. 

[Carlos Danger 380]

A sniff of finals shouldn't become expectation.

I'm happy with all that PJ and Roos have done with this club, it was a flat-out joke prior to their appointments.

The intricacies of player movement is the biggest hurdle this football club is facing. It's an environment that makes staying on top very easy for a club like Hawthorn but it's incredibly trying for a non-destination club.

I'm absolutely certain we're moving in the right direction and at the right trajectory. It's taking time but it'll be worthwhile to become legitimate contenders.

Making appearances in finals like Richmond has in recent years is something I have zero interest in.

[Older demon 2,741]

5 hours ago, Chris said:

Players bought in in Roos' first 2 years and where they are:

2013:

- Cross - Is now the runner after a good couple of years. Still teaching the kids.

- Riley - delisted

- Mitchie - Playing VFL. Who knows if he will make it. 

- Vince - Playing AFL at a high standard. 

- Tyson - Playing AFL to a good standard after a poor 2nd year with us (injury didn't help)

- Salem - Sick but is a very good user of the ball and should make a good wing/HFF int eh years to come

- JKH - Struggling with injury. Who knows if he makes it, I think depth at best

- Hunt - Now playing some very good footy and showing signs of a promising future. 

- Harmes - Has the potential, is getting regular AFL games, needs to work on his consistency.

- Max King - Knee in pieces. Who knows.

- Alexis Georgiou - Played one year, played OK, was never going to make it long term, was delisted. 

- Jetta (put back to Rookie list), best thing to ever happen to Nev, has been a different player since, and a very good one at that.

2014:

- Newton - Playing VFL - Depth at best

- Garlett - Playing AFL and is very good when he is on. Seems to have fallen into a very inconsistent patch of late. 

- Lumumba - Could provide leadership and run off half back but is struggling with injuries. How many years he has left is the big question

- Frost - Has shown glimpses of being a more than serviceable back man. His height and speed were sorely missed on the weekend. 

- Petracca - Missed year one with a knee and has shown glimpses this year of what is hopefully to come. Hasn't burst onto the scene as many thought he would but the talent is there.

- Brayshaw - Had a great first year but was run into the ground. Has struggles with injury this year and from the sound of Roos on the weekend he has struggled with listening to what is required and implementing it, but he has seemed to have worked it out now. Should have a good career as a very good player. 

 - ANB - Playing VFL but must be banging down the door for an AFL call up. Who knows if he makes it or not.

- Stretch - Has shown he has what it takes at AFL level. I don't think he will be a star but he should be a good role player in future. 

- O Mac - Has been getting a game in the AFL and has done reasonably well considering where he is at on the development timeline. The fact he is playing ahead of seasoned veterans either says a lot about Oscar or more about those veterans. He has the talent to make it, he just needs time.

- AVB - Had a good first year but has struggled this year due to injury and form. Hopefully just second year blues.

- M White - Has played 3 games, won 2 of them and played well and then had an off day. People on here have called that he isn't good enough and should be delisted. He has played 3 games people, and done well in 2 of them!

 

I have put in bold the players who will make it and are either playing in best 22 or aren't due to injury. That is 14 of our best 22 who have come in in Roos' first 2 years, you asked where those players were, there is your answer, they are right in front of you. Even better is there are only 9 players bought in over this time who aren't best 22 at the minute and 1 has retired and 2 have already been judged and have been delisted, leaving 6 either on the long term injured list or trying their guts out int eh VFL, and showing some good form there too.

Chris I like your list and I agree with it. I think you missed my point and that is while I am impressed with what Roos has done it speaks volumes of how low a point we have come from and how much work we have to do. 9 of the players on your list played yesterday and are the future but it is an unrealistic expectation for this young group to take on and beat  teams in the top 8.

St Kilda may have as many youngsters but they have Riewoldt, Stevens, Armitage, Montagna, Gilbert, Dempster and Geary as their senior group to provide the consistency, muscle and guidance to their young group. We do not have such a senior group and it will take a couple more years for our group to reach that level of maturity.

[Glenn Molloy 494]

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

WE OVERUSE HANDBALL TO PLAYERS UNDER PRESSURE.  IT CONTINUES TO BE A FLAW. 

I agree with this but not only do we overuse it, we handball to players feet constantly!  Quite often the handball is on if  the target is hit but like our kicking out of the backline, too often it's not!!

[Sir Why You Little 36,957]

16 minutes ago, Glenn Molloy said:

I agree with this but not only do we overuse it, we handball to players feet constantly!  Quite often the handball is on if  the target is hit but like our kicking out of the backline, too often it's not!!

Why doesn't that improve with training?

it astounds me we are still talking basic skills in Roosy's 3rd year...

[Diamond_Jim 12,528]

speaking of alternative ladders.......... we are not doing any better on this one

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-season-2016-what-the-ladder-would-look-like-if-teams-had-kicked-straighter-for-goal-20160718-gq8d5t.html

[Adam The God 30,117]

Roos' job was to come in and improve the list, training standards, build culture and morale and you'd say he's ticked all those KPIs easily.

We were never going to play finals this year with such an inexperienced team. GWS with all the talent in the world showed it takes time to play four quarters consistently. 

I don't like wheeling out the youth card too often, but it is a legitimate reason for our inconsistency. It's not like Roos is still playing the same team from 2013/2014 and we're wildly up and down still. This is a vastly different team.

Finals was aspirational this year, but if you're not aspirational as a footy club, then why the hell would you bother? I also suspect that aim was solely to placate the fans. The FD and board would have known with the majority of our players having played under 20 games, we were never going to give the finals a serious shake. I think what's helped us stay relatively close this deep into the season, is the evenness of this year's competition. This makes it more frustrating when we get beaten by teams that are eminently beatable and are on our level, at least in terms of ladder position. 

Our major shortcomings will be rectified over the coming 22-44 games, both in terms of new blood on the list and improved output from those currently on the list.

Edited July 19, 2016 by AdamFphlebeb

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Jeez the demonland sook army still in fine voice. It was a loss. Still have awesome up and coming kids, still the youngest and most inexperienced. When Roo finishes and Montagna retires, we'll cream them. This game won't even be remembered in a couple of years. This site got unbearable in my absence. Don't turn it into the facebook groups. None of us want to have to go back to demonology.