14 hours ago, P-man said:

I'm with those who are mystified. I thought the days of giving senior players the middle finger were in the past but apparently not.

So he had a bad game against the Saints. He wasn't exactly alone. 

Maybe playing O Mac is a ploy to get his brother to sign...

 

I think it's a case of not all bad games being equal.  If two players play badly, but one plays badly following team instructions and one plays badly ignoring team instructions, I know which player I'd hold more accountable if I were the coach.  It's only speculation that this is what happened, but it's an explanation that at least makes sense.  We'll never know from the outside, of course.

The idea of playing OMac to get his brother to sign is silly, and beneath you.  I trust you are kidding - it's dang hard to tell through text alone.

Edited June 3, 20169 yr by Nasher
Re-sentence

3 hours ago, Gawn-Cam said:

Probably the best theory I've heard as to why Oscar is playing in lieu of Dunn. Can't believe it never occurred to me.

It's a ridculous theory.

15 hours ago, jayceebee31 said:

Possibly trying to make sure both Mac's are at the club next year

Dunn is dusted, & for the end of season barbecue chop.  Possibly heading North to retire, after some sun & beaches.

14 hours ago, P-man said:

I'm with those who are mystified. I thought the days of giving senior players the middle finger were in the past but apparently not.

So he had a bad game against the Saints. He wasn't exactly alone. 

Maybe playing O Mac is a ploy to get his brother to sign...

 

It's no mystery. Dunn clearly isn't doing what the coaches want. Otherwise he would be in the team.

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

The idea of playing OMac to get his brother to sign is silly, and beneath you.  I trust you are kidding - it's dang hard to tell through text alone.

I can confirm tongue being planted in cheek on that.

Frustration re Dunn's non-selection is not, however. Suddenly he's become the slowest, fattest, stupidest footballer alive. It's absurd. He's in our best 22 players and should clearly be playing for mine.

I take your point re following instruction but as you say it is only speculation. I thought it was a fantastic resurrection of a career culminating in a VC appointment last year. Things have turned south very quickly which I find disappointing.

It might look like I overdefend the likes of Dunn and Grimes. I appreciate that eventually you move past players of that ilk. But for me, we haven't reached that point yet with Dunn, not when the guy taking his spot is bambi in footy boots, and we absolutely should be getting Grimes to 100 games.

Edited June 3, 20169 yr by P-man

If their cards are being marked then why are they getting contracts?

People have said Garland is on his way out, yet he got a 2 or 3 year contract extension at the end of last year.

Dunn is contracted next season, I have no issue with someone who is coming out of contact spending the rest of their time at Casey but if you have another year to run its absolutely ridiculous.

His game against St Kilda was as bad as any I have seen by an experienced AFL footballer, but I don't think that means we throw him to the kerb. Especially when the next in line is just learning to put his big boy pants on. Unfortunately we have a coach who plays favourites, and form is not a consideration.

2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

He showed no leadership when the Saints were running amok.....I think the game is past him...

In 2013-2014, playing the one-on-one with big bodies, he was unbeatable...but, the game plan has changed and there aren't many stay at home forwards anymore.

Perhaps he's unfit?

He's miles off his 2015 form.

Just now, H_T said:

He's miles off his 2015 form.

This is it in a nutshell.  His form this year has been pretty putrid, and with Roos talking about everyone playing their role each week, it's clear he didn't get the message and wasn't doing it.  His non selection is a pretty clear indication of this.  

As jumbo said his one on one stuff a few years ago was sensational, but with so much running being done this year it seems that he doesn't have the capacity for it.

I still think it's a storm in a teacup - Dunny might be a good kick and have some experience, but it's not going to change anything.

Compare the Pairs - 2016 season averages (to & inclusive of Rnd 10)

Key (Tall) defenders. Rank in parentheses

Dunn / Garland / Tmac / Omac

Games 4 / 6 / 10 / 3

Eff Disp 12 (2) / 9 (4) / 14.4 (1) / 10.3 (3)

ED% 87 (1) / 80 (3) / 83.7 (2) / 70.1 (4)

Tackles 2.5 (2) / 3.2 (1) / 1.1 (3) / 0.7 (4)

1%s 6.5 (2) / 4.0 (4) / 8.0 (1) / 4.3 (3)

i50s 1.5 (1) / 0.5 (3) / 0.5 (3) / 1.0 (2)

R50s 5.8 (1) / 1.8 (4) / 3.9 (2) / 2.7 (3)

Kicks 10.5 / 6.0 / 10.4 / 4.3

H'balls 3.2 / 5.2 / 6.8 / 10.3

Bounces 0.5 / 0.0 / 0.6 / 0.0

Stats: Courtesy of footywire.com

So its not about Dunns overall performance as the above table shows. Must be disciplne or he has really Pi@#ed Roos off!

21 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

This is it in a nutshell.  His form this year has been pretty putrid, and with Roos talking about everyone playing their role each week, it's clear he didn't get the message and wasn't doing it.  His non selection is a pretty clear indication of this.  

As jumbo said his one on one stuff a few years ago was sensational, but with so much running being done this year it seems that he doesn't have the capacity for it.

I still think it's a storm in a teacup - Dunny might be a good kick and have some experience, but it's not going to change anything.

Our defense as a whole has been bad with or without Dunn. It's obvious to nobody what role any of our key defenders have, let alone what Roos expects of Dunn. Dunn is not the cause or the cure. The coaching is the problem.

But the most demoralising thing for a team is to have a player that is clearly not capable of making a physical contest (O. Mac). Same applied in previous years with Watts. If Dunn is such a problem, give Pedersen a game. Anyone bar O.Mac.

3 hours ago, joeboy said:

Dunn turned up to play this year looking overweight and obviously with the wrong mindset.. it's come back to bite him on his not-indistinguishable arse

Agree he has looked overweight and also slow. Still we miss his kicking from the full back line. And  given the inadequacies of our other defenders his continued omission is surprising. There can be only a few reasons. It is a policy decision that goes to the zone defence game plan that does not suit his contested game style  (the most likely) or disciplinary.  In a strange way I feel disappointed for him because he has been given little game time, played well enough in the twos and has been a stalwart through the horror years. His cards are clearly marked which makes his final year with the Dee's sad for the guy himself. Not the way you would want to finish and with feelings of frustration and being hard done by.

41 minutes ago, H_T said:

He's miles off his 2015 form.

Lynden Dunn - Season Stat Averages

2015 / 2016 

Games 22 / 4

Eff Disp 13.3 / 12

ED% 81.1 / 87

Tackles 2.5 / 2.5

Clangers 1.8 / 2.8

R50s 4.3 / 5.8

1%s 4.6 / 5.6

Stats: Courtesy of footywire.com

Would seem to be fairly similar. 6 rounds or so would be a better sample though and stats alone never tell the full story as we know.

1 minute ago, Rusty Nails said:

Would seem to be fairly similar. 6 rounds or so would be a better sample though and stats alone never tell the full story as we know.

Correct.

Life isn't always fair and unfortunately when it comes to sporting clubs - that is the case the world over.

Unfortunately at the moment I suspect Goody is wielding a fair degree of influence on selections and is rightly, by him, thinking of next year or 2018.

But what's annoying for us all is that Roosy has an outside chance of making the eight with this squad - this year - so why he isn't staying loyal to his senior players is beyond me.

Yes we can all see that Dunn and Grimes don't have explosive speed like Frost or Harmes, but they bring other things to the side and at 29 and 27, they aren't exactly over the hill yet. They also bring certain things that are unique to their game.

Dunn is a thumping kick and incredibly reliable at kick-outs which is a huge plus when Salem is out. He's a bit smaller than you'd want for a player that has to play on the ruckmen, but he's made up for it by being an incredibly clever tunneler. His two games in the VFL once dropped after Saints were huge compared to Frosts - have a look at replays if you don't believe me.

Grimes is incredibly fit and has an amazingly fit, is smart, courageous and has an amazing knack of getting to contests. While the anti-Grimes lobby reckon his disposal is unreliable, he invariably has been forced to play left half-back because they don't want to expose our other man - H - who can't kick left foot at all. With Wagner in, that is no longer a problem anyway. His games in the VFL when he's not 23rd man have been unbelievable - he and Dawes tore Box Hill apart.

That doesn't mean they should play, but when the alternative is a developing Oscar Mc (who looks like he will become a player, but as yet does not have AFL level awareness) or Harmes (who is hard at it and quick but not always as yet reliable with his disposal) then you wonder at what point do you hold off development and stick by your policies of rewarding the best players in the VFL. Clearly we are not.

My kids were in tears last night as they watched the Trengove video - poor old Grimesy was the last one to wish him well.

I still think we might beat Hawthorn to keep ourselves in the mix for the finals (they are nothing like 2015) but if Oscar and Harmesy [censored] it up, then Roosy only has himself to blame. 

No idea what's going on within the club in regards to Dunn and the refusal to pick him on the back of playing well at VFL level and also on the back of two average games from O-Mac.

I feel annoyed and frustrated that Roos hasn't come out and said anything about what it is Dunn needs work on. You hear about it when others get dropped. Garland, Watts etc.. As a member and supporter of the club, I think it's important we know what's going on when things of this nature occur. Especially given that it has now been several weeks that he has been overlooked.

The selection of Frost ahead of Dunn has me even more dumbfounded given that Roos has yet again owned up to 'not having made enough changes' as well as admitting a 'lack of experience' in his boring post-match presser. Considering Garland, (our most experienced defender) is out with injury, one would think Dunn would be a direct replacement given the like-for-like experience and also Dunn's VFL form. (Which is again something I consistently hear from Roos). What msg is this sending Dunn?

At this point of the season, I'm just genuinely confused and irritated by what Roos says during pressers and especially post-match interviews. I value the guy highly and believe he has done much of the steering of the ship over the last couple of years in regards to the state of the club. But as to game-day selection, tactical and strategic implementation during games and game planning in general, I have to say I believe that like Malthouse, Roos' time as a modern day AFL gameday coach is up.

I've heard contradicting statements game after game during this season and the general theme after losses appears to be, 'we could have done this or that better at the selection table'.

It's not good enough. It's actually pathetic.

This week we have a backline of O-Mac (who is just way out of his depth and is in poor form), Frost (who is an athlete and has literally played two VFL games in defence) and T-Mac who has had a very inconsistent year.

Is Roos trying to make a mockery of our chances at winning? 

Even if our midfield break-even, watch the ease at which Hawthorn's forwards score goals in our defensive 50 thanks to going with inexperience and bad form over experience and good form. 

It's almost as if I'd written and posted in a losing formula to Roos and he has gone with it.

 

 

Edited June 3, 20169 yr by stevethemanjordan

The stats don't mean anything in this case because when you are looking at a zone defence the more important thing is that everyone is playing their role in the zone. If he got 100 kicks a game it wouldn't matter because the team as a whole is worse while he isn't playing his role in the zone. The number of kicks he gets becomes irrelevant. 

If Oscar is playing the role asked of him, then we are better off as a team than we are playing someone who isn't playing their role.

It can be hard for older players to change the way they are used to playing footy, so he's probably being given time to work on that in the VFL (where it isn't costing the AFL team goals).

2 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

Life isn't always fair and unfortunately when it comes to sporting clubs - that is the case the world over.

Unfortunately at the moment I suspect Goody is wielding a fair degree of influence on selections and is rightly, by him, thinking of next year or 2018.

But what's annoying for us all is that Roosy has an outside chance of making the eight with this squad - this year - so why he isn't staying loyal to his senior players is beyond me.

Yes we can all see that Dunn and Grimes don't have explosive speed like Frost or Harmes, but they bring other things to the side and at 29 and 27, they aren't exactly over the hill yet. They also bring certain things that are unique to their game.

Dunn is a thumping kick and incredibly reliable at kick-outs which is a huge plus when Salem is out. He's a bit smaller than you'd want for a player that has to play on the ruckmen, but he's made up for it by being an incredibly clever tunneler. His two games in the VFL once dropped after Saints were huge compared to Frosts - have a look at replays if you don't believe me.

Grimes is incredibly fit and has an amazingly fit, is smart, courageous and has an amazing knack of getting to contests. While the anti-Grimes lobby reckon his disposal is unreliable, he invariably has been forced to play left half-back because they don't want to expose our other man - H - who can't kick left foot at all. With Wagner in, that is no longer a problem anyway. His games in the VFL when he's not 23rd man have been unbelievable - he and Dawes tore Box Hill apart.

That doesn't mean they should play, but when the alternative is a developing Oscar Mc (who looks like he will become a player, but as yet does not have AFL level awareness) or Harmes (who is hard at it and quick but not always as yet reliable with his disposal) then you wonder at what point do you hold off development and stick by your policies of rewarding the best players in the VFL. Clearly we are not.

My kids were in tears last night as they watched the Trengove video - poor old Grimesy was the last one to wish him well.

I still think we might beat Hawthorn to keep ourselves in the mix for the finals (they are nothing like 2015) but if Oscar and Harmesy [censored] it up, then Roosy only has himself to blame. 

Well said.

Selection has been a failing of the season so far. This week is probably the most reasonable to date but there are still question marks.

Roos justified the five changes this week by saying players needed a rest. Garland and Viney are out injured, while Newton and ANB only just came into the side. Kennedy is the only one you could reasonably argue was "rested".

We continue to load up the side with inexperience, and some of the players getting reprieves for average performances aren't exactly certainties to retain their spots in the future, i.e. Wagner, Hunt and Harmes. If it was Brayshaw and Salem it would be a little easier to digest.

For a third year in charge, it certainly looks a lot like a development year. Dunn and Grimes aren't a panacea, but I don't believe we are genuinely fielding a best 22 every week.

11 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

No idea what's going on within the club in regards to Dunn and the refusal to pick him on the back of playing well at VFL level and also on the back of two average games from O-Mac.

I feel annoyed and frustrated that Roos hasn't come out and said anything about what it is Dunn needs work on. You hear about it when others get dropped. Garland, Watts etc.. As a member and supporter of the club, I think it's important we know what's going on when things of this nature occur. Especially given that it has now been several weeks that he has been overlooked.

The selection of Frost ahead of Dunn has me even more dumbfounded given that Roos has yet again owned up to 'not having made enough changes' as well as admitting a 'lack of experience' in his boring post-match presser. Considering Garland, (our most experienced defender) is out with injury, one would think Dunn would be a direct replacement given the like-for-like experience and also Dunn's VFL form. (Which is again something I consistently hear from Roos). What msg is this sending Dunn?

At this point of the season, I'm just genuinely confused and irritated by what Roos says during pressers and especially post-match interviews. I value the guy highly and believe he has done much of the steering of the ship over the last couple of years in regards to the state of the club. But as to game-day selection, tactical and strategic implementation during games and game planning in general, I have to say I believe that like Malthouse, Roos' time as a modern day AFL gameday coach is up.

I've heard contradicting statements game after game during this season and the general theme after losses appears to be, 'we could have done this or that better at the selection table'.

It's not good enough. It's actually pathetic.

This week we have a backline of O-Mac (who is just way out of his depth and is in poor form), Frost (who is an athlete and has literally played two VFL games in defence) and T-Mac who has had a very inconsistent year.

Is Roos trying to make a mockery of our chances at winning? 

Even if our midfield break-even, watch the ease at which Hawthorn's forwards score goals in our defensive 50 thanks to going with inexperience and bad form over experience and good form. 

It's almost as if I'd written and posted in a losing formula to Roos and he has gone with it.

 

 

Agree with many of these points Steve, the lack of explanation or comment from the club is frustrating given the amount of crap spun by the club about team and individual player form. 

1 hour ago, Axis of Bob said:

The stats don't mean anything in this case because when you are looking at a zone defence the more important thing is that everyone is playing their role in the zone. If he got 100 kicks a game it wouldn't matter because the team as a whole is worse while he isn't playing his role in the zone. The number of kicks he gets becomes irrelevant. 

If Oscar is playing the role asked of him, then we are better off as a team than we are playing someone who isn't playing their role.

It can be hard for older players to change the way they are used to playing footy, so he's probably being given time to work on that in the VFL (where it isn't costing the AFL team goals).

Axis i'm pretty sure if Omac/Frost are up to playing their role down back (many would say poorly outcome wise) in a zone situation then Dunny is capable of, and more than likely, doing the same.

I tend to think it's more to do with the way we want to transition out of defence once we have the ball that may have sealed Dunny's fate. He is the lowest hand baller of all the key defenders (Garland/Tmac/Omac) and relies heavily on medium to long up the line kicks or kicks to advantage. May be seen by the FD as a little old school for the "nouveau" attack off HB style that the modern day game is seeing now with heavy use of handball to cut through the opposition's press as well as short precision passing by foot.

As Dunny tends to go more medium/long in his kicking he also presents the Coaching dept with another conundrum. That of intercept marks by our opponents and one in which they would be trying to minimise wherever possible. The longer the ball carries through the air the better chance an opponent has of intercepting. Short precision passing, handballing through the press is (so i've heard said) critical in today's slingshot style of defence.

My only concern, aside from the handball part, is that the other key defenders here (see above) are also not that adept at short precision passing, albeit some are using handball much more than Dunny, especially Tmac & Omac. How effectively they are handballing however, who knows.

Dunny is also a little 'one paced' and the coaching staff might also be looking to increase the speed at which we move the ball with run and carry across the ground. Not sure whether the other 3 are any faster in a sprint though. Maybe OMac.

That's just my take on the matter. I may be totally incorrect and barking (mad) up the wrong tree of course.

Edited June 3, 20169 yr by Rusty Nails

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

Our defense as a whole has been bad with or without Dunn. It's obvious to nobody what role any of our key defenders have, let alone what Roos expects of Dunn. Dunn is not the cause or the cure. The coaching is the problem.

But the most demoralising thing for a team is to have a player that is clearly not capable of making a physical contest (O. Mac). Same applied in previous years with Watts. If Dunn is such a problem, give Pedersen a game. Anyone bar O.Mac.

Or play Dunn until Pedo is ready to return?

8 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Axis i'm pretty sure if Omac/Frost are up to playing their role down back (many would say poorly outcome wise) in a zone situation then Dunny could also (and probably is...most of the time) do the same.

I tend to think it's more to do with the way we want to transition out of defence once we have the ball that may have sealed Dunny's fate. He is the lowest hand baller of all the key defenders (Garland/Tmac/Omac) and relies heavily on medium to long up the line kicks or kicks to advantage. May be seen by the FD as a little old school for the "nouveau" attack off HB style that the modern day game is seeing now with heavy use of handball to cut through the opposition's press as well as short precision passing by foot.

As Dunny tends to go more medium/long in his kicking he also presents the Coaching dept with another conundrum. That of intercept marks by our opponents and one in which they would be trying to minimise wherever possible. The longer the ball carries through the air the better chance an opponent has of intercepting. Short precision passing, handballing through the press is (so i've heard said) critical in today's slingshot style of defence.

My only concern, aside from the handball part, is that the other key defenders here (see above) are also not that adept at short precision passing, albeit some are using handball much more than Dunny, especially Tmac & Omac. How effectively they are handballing however, who knows.

Dunny is also a little 'one paced' and the coaching staff might also be looking to increase the speed at which we move the ball with run and carry across the ground. Not sure whether the other 3 are any faster in a sprint though. Maybe OMac.

That's just my take on the matter. I may be totally incorrect and barking (mad) up the wrong tree of course.

It's not a bad theory. I'd argue that Garland is no better than Dunn in that regard, and he seems to be getting ample opportunity. I also don't think the long kick (of which Dunn is the master) is the worst way of breaking through the press, but maybe I'm outdated. I know possession is king these days.

As Steve says, some transparency would be novel but very welcomed. It doesn't have to be a Dunn bashing. Just a cliche-free explanation of what Dunn needs to work on to get into the side.

Will never happen. If things like that happened, Demonland content would be halved overnight.

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

No idea what's going on within the club in regards to Dunn and the refusal to pick him on the back of playing well at VFL level and also on the back of two average games from O-Mac.

I feel annoyed and frustrated that Roos hasn't come out and said anything about what it is Dunn needs work on. You hear about it when others get dropped. Garland, Watts etc.. As a member and supporter of the club, I think it's important we know what's going on when things of this nature occur. Especially given that it has now been several weeks that he has been overlooked.

The selection of Frost ahead of Dunn has me even more dumbfounded given that Roos has yet again owned up to 'not having made enough changes' as well as admitting a 'lack of experience' in his boring post-match presser. Considering Garland, (our most experienced defender) is out with injury, one would think Dunn would be a direct replacement given the like-for-like experience and also Dunn's VFL form. (Which is again something I consistently hear from Roos). What msg is this sending Dunn?

At this point of the season, I'm just genuinely confused and irritated by what Roos says during pressers and especially post-match interviews. I value the guy highly and believe he has done much of the steering of the ship over the last couple of years in regards to the state of the club. But as to game-day selection, tactical and strategic implementation during games and game planning in general, I have to say I believe that like Malthouse, Roos' time as a modern day AFL gameday coach is up.

I've heard contradicting statements game after game during this season and the general theme after losses appears to be, 'we could have done this or that better at the selection table'.

It's not good enough. It's actually pathetic.

This week we have a backline of O-Mac (who is just way out of his depth and is in poor form), Frost (who is an athlete and has literally played two VFL games in defence) and T-Mac who has had a very inconsistent year.

Is Roos trying to make a mockery of our chances at winning? 

Even if our midfield break-even, watch the ease at which Hawthorn's forwards score goals in our defensive 50 thanks to going with inexperience and bad form over experience and good form. 

It's almost as if I'd written and posted in a losing formula to Roos and he has gone with it.

 

 

There's a fine line between blooding the youngsters and playing more experienced (but maybe in Roos' the Fds eyes...a player that doesn't fit into the grand scheme going forward) players Steve. I just hope we aren't cutting off our nose to spite our possible finals chances in favour of the experimental/blooding side.

Personally not that fussed at what Roos says or doesn't in the pressers, especially if we're winning

1 hour ago, hemingway said:

Agree with many of these points Steve, the lack of explanation or comment from the club is frustrating given the amount of crap spun by the club about team and individual player form. 

 

12 minutes ago, P-man said:

It's not a bad theory. I'd argue that Garland is no better than Dunn in that regard, and he seems to be getting ample opportunity. I also don't think the long kick (of which Dunn is the master) is the worst way of breaking through the press, but maybe I'm outdated. I know possession is king these days.

As Steve says, some transparency would be novel but very welcomed. It doesn't have to be a Dunn bashing. Just a cliche-free explanation of what Dunn needs to work on to get into the side.

Will never happen. If things like that happened, Demonland content would be halved overnight.

I don't think asking for some sort of "what's required fro him to get back" is unreasonable guys.

The fact that we don't see/hear it for Dunny would again appear to add weight to the theory that his papers are signed.

I'm happy that the FD have sent a message to Dunn. His form in 2010 and 2014 was good. But that's it! Last year he was again poor and that's reflected in the B&F results. The games he's played this year have also been poor (undisciplined, poor coverage of the ground, lazy, etc).

For a senior player he does not do enough and never really has. They might as well try and blood replacements. It's a good message to the rest of the group.