Senagor you have hit the nail on the head but the detractors are still going to remain because they need a scapegoat and who better than a public schoolboy like Watts? (Although this is never bought up in relation to Dawes, Salem and Hunt who went to the same school!) Every time Nic Nat plays a good game, the same people emerge slamming our recruiters for picking Watts yet they remain silent whenever Nic Nat plays a bad game. Nonetheless last year NicNat came ninth in WC's B&F count and Watts came tenth in ours, suggesting that their respective teams rate them on a par at least. This year I suspect that both players will rate similarly or maybe Watts might even reverse their positions.

Senagor you have hit the nail on the head but the detractors are still going to remain because they need a scapegoat and who better than a public schoolboy like Watts? (Although this is never bought up in relation to Dawes, Salem and Hunt who went to the same school!) Every time Nic Nat plays a good game, the same people emerge slamming our recruiters for picking Watts yet they remain silent whenever Nic Nat plays a bad game. Nonetheless last year NicNat came ninth in WC's B&F count and Watts came tenth in ours, suggesting that their respective teams rate them on a par at least. This year I suspect that both players will rate similarly or maybe Watts might even reverse their positions.

yawn,,,,how pathetic.

Watts prior to this year was a bust,. Has always been an elite user of the ball but zero apetite for the contest.

Great to see he is finally getting it together but previous criticism around the area above is absolutely warranted.

Only being a demon fan through my other better half for the last 5 years (Token Kiwi who knew AFL only by name) - bear with me if I'm entirely off base...

Maybe Jack reads the forums and we could help his confidence through focusing on the positives in his game under Roos rather than the negatives... even if its just for today. Behavioural change after all requires both positive and negative reinforcement.

I would argue that Watts gets more criticism than anyone else in the team these days (even the Toump, who gets more positive remarks to cancel out the negatives on the ledger), in saying that Dawes and Lumumba are catching up.

So where does the continued negativity come from?:

• Do we think Jack still has the most 'untapped potential' in the team which we're desperately trying to get him to realise?
• Are we all just angry that we didn't pick other more successful players from the draft and are holding Jack responsible for this?

I think the reason for this is that we as fans continue to link Jacks' development and ability to the health and success of the team overall - more so than any other player on our roster. We want to believe that if Watts can just play the way he "could" or "should", the club will be more successful. I know I've thought that we would be better for it if Jack was playing out of his skin, especially after watching the slim pickings of talent our team had at times under Neeld. But would we? in reflecting upon this time, given the roster and management I'd be leaning towards "no".

Simply put, I think Jack is simply a victim of probability - he had all the indicators and statistics to indicate he "would" be great. And that in essence set him up for failure. He is not the problem, we are. He happened to be in the wrong draft (super talented pool) and drafted to a club that didn't have a lot to be hopeful about in our future (post 2011), except maybe our youngsters courtesy of draft picks. As such, we the demoralised passionate player base saw him as our golden goose and continue to hold on to that ideal with almost childlike stubbornness. as much as we would like the draft to be a "science" built around objective measures, Jack to me is an example of the "art" that is draft picks.

Great draft statistics do not necessarily make great players, especially considering the distance in ability between state comps and AFL level - To use a cross-code example Tom Brady of the New England patriots taken unashamedly from Wiki: "Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL draft. Considering his later achievements, many analysts have called Brady the best NFL draft pick of all time."

We need to keep in mind that despite Watts not meeting our expectations, which are nothing more than personalised beliefs, he continues to love the club and wear the red and blue proudly. Yet it seems to me that there is almost as much animosity for him as there is for those that have hurt our club by leaving rather than be part of the solution i.e. Scully, Clark, Sylvia?

To me there is the Pre-Roos Watts and the Post-Roos Watts - and since we have had an improved roster and a improved coaching team I'm happy with the improvement that I have seen in Watts, too bad we couldn't have drafted him straight into the Roos era

Theoretical questions:

• Where would Jack needed to have been drafted in 2008 to avoid the expectation (and subsequent burden of disapproval) that we have put on his shoulders?
• What single behaviour / statistic could Jack demonstrate to you (non Jack fans) in a game that would be indicative of improvement in his game?

The other question is whether he would still be an AFL player if he did not have the number one pick history. Would he have been delisted earlier like several other under performers? The club may have kept him on because 1. The number one title must have had some basis in fact as all the other clubs thought he was one or two that year and 2. The club would have serious egg on face if it delisted a number one pick.

Some of you are acting like he had never played a good game prior to this year.

He played a handful of 'Near Breakout' games a year which is why so many of us were still on the bandwagon that is much fuller now.

Wasn't Tom Hawkins 1st game against us. 5 goals from memory???

Tom Hawkins took a long time to hit his straps as did Jab Watson. So much so you had to ask " Is this guy really Tim Watson's son? "

• 1 Where would Jack needed to have been drafted in 2008 to avoid the expectation (and subsequent burden of disapproval) that we have put on his shoulders?
• 2 What single behaviour / statistic could Jack demonstrate to you (non Jack fans) in a game that would be indicative of improvement in his game?

Good post Senegor.

1 I think in his draft year had he been pick 5 the whinging would be almost gone.

2 I am a fan, but to take the game on more.

1 Melbourne Jack Watts Melbourne Games played 112

2 West Coast Nicholas Naitanui West Coast 125

3 Fremantle Stephen Hill Fremantle 146

4 Port Adelaide Hamish Hartlett Port Adelaide 108

5 Essendon Michael Hurley Essendon 116

6 Carlton Christopher Yarran Carlton 118

7 Brisbane Daniel Rich Brisbane 119

8 Richmond Tyrone Vickery Richmond 97

9 North Melbourne Jack Ziebell North Melbourne 118

10 Adelaide Phil Davis GWS 75

11 Collingwood Steele Sidebottom Collingwood 139

12 Sydney Lewis Johnston 10

solid draft

I'd have Stephen Hill or Natinui in a heartbeat over Jack Watts (hindsight's wonderful ain't it?)

I'd have Stephen Hill or Natinui in a heartbeat over Jack Watts (hindsight's wonderful ain't it?)

I would have Sidebottom and then Ziebell, and then Watts. None of the others really excite me. Rich maybe...

I still believe Watts will end up being the best player from that draft. He is arguably behind Sidebottom, Hurley, Ziebell and Naitanui at present, but he has made up a decent amount of ground this year. The others on the list are mostly just average (Vickery) to good (Hartlett) players.

Good post Senegor.

1 I think in his draft year had he been pick 5 the whinging would be almost gone.

2 I am a fan, but to take the game on more.

1 Melbourne Jack Watts Melbourne Games played 112

2 West Coast Nicholas Naitanui West Coast 125

3 Fremantle Stephen Hill Fremantle 146

4 Port Adelaide Hamish Hartlett Port Adelaide 108

5 Essendon Michael Hurley Essendon 116

6 Carlton Christopher Yarran Carlton 118

7 Brisbane Daniel Rich Brisbane 119

8 Richmond Tyrone Vickery Richmond 97

9 North Melbourne Jack Ziebell North Melbourne 118

10 Adelaide Phil Davis GWS 75

11 Collingwood Steele Sidebottom Collingwood 139

12 Sydney Lewis Johnston 10

3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11 have all been far better than Watts.

2 has finally become a valuable commodity.

If we redid the draft Watts wouldn't be top 20, but at least he'd now be top 30.

3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11 have all been far better than Watts.

2 has finally become a valuable commodity.

If we redid the draft Watts wouldn't be top 20, but at least he'd now be top 30.

so you've named 8 better out of the top 12

who are the other 12 that keep him out of the top 20 then

so you've named 8 better out of the top 12

who are the other 12 that keep him out of the top 20 then

Shuey, Ballantyne, Trengove, Zaharakis, Redden, Beams, Hannebery, Shiels, Motlop, Sloane, Jetta, and Walters for starters and you can add Lynch, Suban, Broadbent. Others debateable.

Btw, don't get seduced by 'games played'. Watts has been undeserving in about 50 games.

Shuey, Ballantyne, Trengove, Zaharakis, Redden, Beams, Hannebery, Shiels, Motlop, Sloane, Jetta, and Walters for starters and you can add Lynch, Suban, Broadbent. Others debateable.

Btw, don't get seduced by 'games played'. Watts has been undeserving in about 50 games.

... and something else all these have in common is that their teams have all played in finals - many of them have played in prelims.

Jack may well be unique as a No.1 draft pick in playing 7 seasons in a bottom-4 team. You're comparing apples with oranges.

Wonder how many of these would have done better having to contend with the sustained carp that he's had to put up with? Not least from his own "supporters".

... and something else all these have in common is that their teams have all played in finals - many of them have played in prelims.

Jack may well be unique as a No.1 draft pick in playing 7 seasons in a bottom-4 team. You're comparing apples with oranges.

Wonder how many of these would have done better having to contend with the sustained carp that he's had to put up with? Not least from his own "supporters".

No, I'm comparing apples with apples.

I was asked to name 20 players that would be considered ahead of him in a redraft, so I did.

Btw, it's pretty hard to come up with players from teams that haven't at least tasted finals. That said, playing finals isn't that big of a deal. Crap teams play finals. Almost half the competition every year play finals. Don't get your jollies over "finals".

No, I'm comparing apples with apples.

I was asked to name 20 players that would be considered ahead of him in a redraft, so I did.

Btw, it's pretty hard to come up with players from teams that haven't at least tasted finals. That said, playing finals isn't that big of a deal. Crap teams play finals. Almost half the competition every year play finals. Don't get your jollies over "finals".

I get jollies over finals.....memories.

3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11 have all been far better than Watts.

2 has finally become a valuable commodity.

If we redid the draft Watts wouldn't be top 20, but at least he'd now be top 30.

FMD. Get over it.

He's become a handy player for us, we can't go back and re-do the draft.

He's had Bailey & Neeld as his coaches to start his career with. You think it's a coincidence he's only now starting to really show what he's worth under Roos and McCartney?

FMD. Get over it.

He's become a handy player for us, we can't go back and re-do the draft.

He's had Bailey & Neeld as his coaches to start his career with. You think it's a coincidence he's only now starting to really show what he's worth under Roos and McCartney?

I'll discuss what I like when I like, Stu.

You don't need to yap at my ankles every time I walk by.

Good boy.

I'll discuss what I like when I like, Stu.

You don't need to yap at my ankles every time I walk by.

Good boy.

Haha I think you're starting to mistake you anonymously critiquing footy players from behind your computer for actual toughness.

But you know, keep sooking about the past and how hurt your feelings are that Watts still plays for us and is playing well, then maybe you can mount enough pressure on the AFL so they bring in retrospective drafts.

How about all the Jack Watts haters take the day off? Unless they have never made a mistake.

Edit at 11:10am - Shyt I didn't think that would work.

how about all the excusers for laziness, & 'the me generation', take the next 5 years off, & let this club grow some, before they get back from holidays.

You're stalking Pro Dee are you Stu?

You're stalking Pro Dee are you Stu?

Stu is a noted stalker. Follows posters from thread to thread and then derails those threads with personal abuse. Rarely posts about football!!

how about all the excusers for laziness, & 'the me generation', take the next 5 years off, & let this club grow some, before they get back from holidays.

I liked this post because it doesn't have any alternative colours or fonts that I have to squint to read. Thanks D-L!

But what about all the erudite articulate bogans here?

Are the Araldite bogans the ones who stick around??

Tom Hawkins took a long time to hit his straps as did Jab Watson. So much so you had to ask " Is this guy really Tim Watson's son? "

And about what year did Jab suddenly develop, by any coincidence??? It will always be open to question.