The players have improved, but the team hasn't

I think that's a great post. Completely agree. We've certainly seen individual performances improve, but we still don't play as a team. We don't run for each other, we don't shepherd for each other, we don't kick to the advantage of each other, we don't handball to the advantage of each other. We just focus on our individual games and it is killing the team.

I think what we saw today was different levels of buy in, the saints kids and veterans believe in what richo has in place

For us our boys do, in patches but that unquestioned faith in the plan clearly isn't there, the boys turn up thinking a competive effort is good considering where we have come from, it should be win at all costs and buy in or [censored] off, and that includes our leaders like mr dawes.

The reason why it appears the likes of WB, St Kilda and to a lesser extent, WCE have improved quicker than what Melbourne has is purely and simply that the aforementioned teams all play a fast, attack-based game plan involving fast ball movement and a greater chance of scoring. A high risk, high reward style kind of mindset.

Melbourne on the other hand play a more defensive-minded game plan. We have all seen how effective it can be with your Fremantle's and Sydney's when you have the elite cattle in your field. It's not so effective when you're an unskilled team in comparison and more vulnerable to skill errors and in turn being opened up and scored against. When the mindset is to defend before attack, there is little to no scoreboard pressure on the opposition and they know that even if they get behind, they will never be too far behind to mount a comeback.

Roos' current game plan and disposition is not going to work with Melbourne's current list and seemingly current desire to recruit inside mids.

When you look at Melbourne's wins from 2015, excluding the Brisbane win, Melbourne played free-flowing, fast-moving football and hit their opposition with scoreboard pressure. This is the opposite of what Roos seems to be going for and looked more like a WB, St Kilda and WCE style of play.

If Roos was greater success with this list, he will need to relax and allow his players to play a riskier style and instill the confidence within the players to take these risks and go for some high rewards.

Look at how it's paying dividends for WCE in 2015. Look at how it paid dividends for Port in 2014. Confidence + some high risks can be a deadly combination.

I think the Saints just have a better older brigade that makes there kids look better.
We have the better youngsters unlike what the media and others may think.

We've had a great look at a lot of players this season.

It was never about trying to finish high.
It is for next year and beyond.

just watched the game fair dinkum disgusting , crap, just [censored] grrrrrrr pure [censored]

The games against the Bombers and now the Saints were critical to this year. Its all very well to win a game you weren't meant to, or get a team on an off day but if we had any ticker as a club, any heart, any care, then these games against teams in similar positions to ourselves are the ones that show the supporters the club cares. These are the "line in the sand games".

And we once again were rolled over like a weak gutted animal.

A good club would wouldn't accept it. I want to see Bartlett, Jackson and Roos in front of us putting things straight. Telling us it won't happen again. Putting jobs, reputations and the club on notice.

This isn't about game plans, succession plans or individual performance. This is about a club deciding wether its just a bunch of mercenaries checking their bank balance each week to make sure the moneys gone in or wether we are ever going to stand up and be something worthwhile.

I think what we saw today was different levels of buy in, the saints kids and veterans believe in what richo has in place

For us our boys do, in patches but that unquestioned faith in the plan clearly isn't there, the boys turn up thinking a competive effort is good considering where we have come from, it should be win at all costs and buy in or [censored], and that includes our leaders like mr dawes.

How many of our players would say they enjoy playing football at the moment? Very few i would have thought and that is the problem.

I agree that Roos needs to relax his game-plan that he seems so hell bent on and let the boys play enjoyable football.

I just re-watched the first half of Round 1. The team definitely played with a bit more run and dash and worked much harder for each other and spread really well in that game. There were still a similar number of skill errors but they were able to cover them up better with second efforts. We also had a lot more run and dash from guys like Kent and Frost.

I'm not sure if that means the coach is to blame for not be able to get the team to perform consistently, or its more a matter of the younger guys starting to tire as the season wears on. But we shouldn't discount the whole season just yet...

I think the Saints just have a better older brigade that makes there kids look better.

We have the better youngsters unlike what the media and others may think.

We've had a great look at a lot of players this season.

It was never about trying to finish high.

It is for next year and beyond.

Very circumspect observations. Well said.

How many of our players would say they enjoy playing football at the moment? Very few i would have thought and that is the problem.

I agree that Roos needs to relax his game-plan that he seems so hell bent on and let the boys play enjoyable football.

It’s hard to enjoy something you suck at.

We must be pretty good, we beat Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Geelong at home with what we thought was a relatively weak team. Now we're so hopeless it beggars belief. This is just too wide a gap between our best and worst, this is list managing, it has to be.

I think the Saints just have a better older brigade that makes there kids look better.

We have the better youngsters unlike what the media and others may think.

We've had a great look at a lot of players this season.

It was never about trying to finish high.

It is for next year and beyond.

Next year never comes when you're a Dees fan

We must be pretty good, we beat Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Geelong

How this happened I will never know

I'd say to show the fans improvement but with the overall need to still finish the year lowly, it's all I have to hold on to at the moment as unpalatable as that is.

Salem, frost and kent are missed. Perhaps an in form jkh. But our mids seem flat.

The reason why it appears the likes of WB, St Kilda and to a lesser extent, WCE have improved quicker than what Melbourne has is purely and simply that the aforementioned teams all play a fast, attack-based game plan involving fast ball movement and a greater chance of scoring. A high risk, high reward style kind of mindset.

Melbourne on the other hand play a more defensive-minded game plan. We have all seen how effective it can be with your Fremantle's and Sydney's when you have the elite cattle in your field. It's not so effective when you're an unskilled team in comparison and more vulnerable to skill errors and in turn being opened up and scored against. When the mindset is to defend before attack, there is little to no scoreboard pressure on the opposition and they know that even if they get behind, they will never be too far behind to mount a comeback.

Roos' current game plan and disposition is not going to work with Melbourne's current list and seemingly current desire to recruit inside mids.

When you look at Melbourne's wins from 2015, excluding the Brisbane win, Melbourne played free-flowing, fast-moving football and hit their opposition with scoreboard pressure. This is the opposite of what Roos seems to be going for and looked more like a WB, St Kilda and WCE style of play.

If Roos was greater success with this list, he will need to relax and allow his players to play a riskier style and instill the confidence within the players to take these risks and go for some high rewards.

Look at how it's paying dividends for WCE in 2015. Look at how it paid dividends for Port in 2014. Confidence + some high risks can be a deadly combination.

Exactly. We've endlessly tried, but failed to out-grind teams, especially good teams. We can play a quarter or two of defence and look in control but it just continues to fail us time and time again. What West Coast and to a lesser extent the Dogs have done this year should really be the blueprint, they have put teams to the sword with their exciting, fast midfield. We saw some of that against Geelong but most of the team our players are too afraid to even run off the mark

The reason why it appears the likes of WB, St Kilda and to a lesser extent, WCE have improved quicker than what Melbourne has is purely and simply that the aforementioned teams all play a fast, attack-based game plan involving fast ball movement and a greater chance of scoring. A high risk, high reward style kind of mindset.

It has nothing to do with it.

The reason they have improved faster is they have top class senior players on their list who have played through finals campaigns with their clubs and experience some level of success. We have none and have had to buy in experience at the expense of bringing in more quality kids.

We must be pretty good, we beat Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Geelong at home with what we thought was a relatively weak team. Now we're so hopeless it beggars belief. This is just too wide a gap between our best and worst, this is list managing, it has to be.

I'd say to show the fans improvement but with the overall need to still finish the year lowly, it's all I have to hold on to at the moment as unpalatable as that is.

OMG

I can't believe I am reading this cr@p

List management has worked so well for us over the years, hasn't it??

If we cant kick or handball i don't think any coach can really do much to change it.. With the fundamental skills we appear not to have, how would a clarko turn us into a Hawthorn for example? i just dont think its possible. And that to me is the most disappointing part.. I don't mind the losses now if i can see a bright future ahead.. i saw it in the first half of the season, but now its clouded.

Issues:

• We don't have that senior group who make the right decision every time..
• Our forward line is completely dysfunctional
• We lose every time we don't play man on man, and this is a result of the next point
• We struggle to hit the side of a barn, today was the worst skilled game i have ever seen us.. so many fumbles when in the clear that then stalled everything else.. so many times 2 melbourne players got hands to the ball and stuffed each other up.
• Our kicking into the forward 50 is also hopeless.. we need to lower and widen our eyes.. a number of times we were lose at the top of the 50 and we bombed it into 2 or 3v1.. a 30m kick to these guys, who are lose, would result in a shot on goal at worst.. even vince did it.
• Our goal kicking accuracy has been poor for a few weeks, which seems unusual.. although we do like to hit the post a little..
• We really like to handball to someone 1 meter away who is stationary and has a player on them..

I'll still watch every game for the rest of the season because i love my footy club, i find it disappointing reading that others are giving up. Stay strong and who knows we may turn it around eventually

Roos has been OK but the 1.5 mill a year is another blight on the game.

Paid for remaining calm while the same shite goes on looks great on camera but he could use his weight to seek clarification on about 12 free kicks yesterday.

i doubt he will bite the hand that feeds.

he is another "great footy person" i.e. industry mercenary .

We just don't know how to play with one another, we don't have chemistry. The talent is there but I feel like there are divisions in the playing group, between the talent we've got from other clubs, the guys who were there pre-2011 and players who've debuted under Roos

We definitely don't play as a "team", which is something Roos has mentioned before

Players go into themselves and play for stats rather than do the team things, when we aren't winning

I won't even watch 360 tonight. Roos has the ability to make you feel better when he talks and I've been sucked in too many times this year.

I want to see roosy come out and say our boys are on notice, time for them to play for their careers becauss thats what is on the line.

Bailey had a better list. More attacking instinct.

He did not have a better list. He simply coached the team he had to its advantages. There weren't anywhere near as many changes after 2009 leading into 2010 as there has been at Melbourne in two pre-seasons under Roos. Yes, there was a lot of experience lost, but the turnover wasn't anywhere near as big. Bailey and to a lesser extent Neeld were scapegoats of what was a toxic work environment.

I think it's pretty evident now that Roos' attempt to build an ultra-defensive squad is futile when the team dynamics are as bad as they are. If this were a Collingwood or an Essendon or a Hawthorn, they could afford to offer such a turd of a product for a few years. We simply can't afford that anymore.

After 10 years, we are now in our third rebuild and now we offer a different turd to the one we were offering 3-4 years ago. It's a different product, but it's still a turd. We need to attract people to games. We can't afford this anymore.

How many times on the weekend did we have the ball at half-back with a clear pathway forward, only to look sideways and kick to a contest? St Kilda left the middle open ALL. AFTERNOON and we never took advantage of it. Is it a structural thing? A coaching thing? Are the players just dumb?

Five minutes into the last quarter was the final straw for me. Grimes had the ball at half-back, no one had kicked a goal yet, and the game was still up for grabs. He had no one ahead of him for 50 meters. He completely ignored the direct option. He went sideways, fluffed the kick, and there was another stoppage. I have never been so infuriated at a match before. I slammed the chair, got up and walked out.

There is a reason why Hogan, Garlett, Dawes struggle in matches like yesterday. We play indirect, stoppage-based football, so when there is a clear passage forward and Hogan leads, the ball never gets to him. There's a stoppage, and he can't double-back because the opposition has gotten numbers behind the ball. It's happened time and time again this year. Evidently, we kick the ball out, directly over our forwards, and the opposition takes an uncontested mark. I have never seen a team give away so many uncontested marks to defenders in the forward 50. It boggles the mind.

It must be a directive. Maintain possession and work the ball forward slowly. It seems to fit the Roos mantra. The problem is that the players play like they hate playing with one another, they over-posses the ball, miss handball targets, fluff kicks, drop marks and miss tackles. How many times did St Kilda walk away from a stoppage?

We have way too much talent to be playing like this.

I want to see roosy come out and say our boys are on notice, time for them to play for their careers becauss thats what is on the line.

For about ten of them that time has passed.

We know what we have a bottom three list.

There is nowhere for them to hide they are exposed by their own efforts.

I am on the edge anything less than five players dropped from Yesterdays teams will push me over.

There is not another team in the competition that would play Dawes next week.

Lets see.