Please stop using 2013 as the benchmark for improvement, any group of players or coaching staff could show improvement from that. please set a slightly higher standard to show improvement.

So we do show improvement and you want to shift the goal posts to suit your argument?

Wiseblood IMO it is this simple.

The list has improved since the end of 2013

The improvement in my view can only be truly judged by wins and losses.

While the losing margins have decreased ( hawks excepted ) I take no joy in being unable to beat the likes of St Kilda.

That shows me that our improvement is only marginal in my view.

You I think see more improvement than that level.

For the better part of fifty years I have been part of the "Gee we played better this week with a little luck we would have won"

The nett result has been we have appeared in a handful of finals in fifty one years.

I no longer subscribe to that idea.

I now hope to win games like yesterday If we don't it just says to me that we are not good enough and have more work to do.

there is little consultation in losing by any amount.

If that offends people tough.

It doesn't offend me in the slightest.

As I said, I'm glad I don't support the club as you do. It's as if a loss completely washes away any positives from a game. It doesn't.

We are clearly developing players far, far better than we have in a long time. When is the last time we had young players sustain their form over an extended period of time? Brayshaw, Vandenberg and Hogan have been great all year. Toumpas is getting better. I could go on.

I know we are judged on wins and losses, that's what it comes down to, but underneath that there is concrete proof we are getting better and yesterday's loss doesn't wash that away.

So we do show improvement and you want to shift the goal posts to suit your argument?

no, i just don't think its a true reflection, I'm willing to believe but that won't cut it for me, just like a 1 off game shocker that season should be totally forgotten

You are proving my point we got beaten by a poor team like us.

If we cannot beat this mob what hope the Cats on the weekend.

I don't agree they are poor.

They have been better than their win-loss suggests and their kids are improving.

They have a deeper reserve of experienced players - hell, their core played three grand finals not so long ago - but I think we are improving and have the better mid-term prospects.

We're just coming from a lot further back and I thought you were being too dismissive of their gains and background.

Jones was off the ground for the first half of the second quarter. He returned but then spent a good part of the remainder of the game on the HFF.

I would guess that he was/is carrying an injury which is why he wasn't in the middle at the end.

Jones and at least one other forward should have been rolling a plus 2 in the middle ie, 1 running off the square to the side Jones wasn't... Plus an extra sitting in the hole between FF/CHF and another in the goal square (at least 3 from our forward half.... Not a standard plus one as if there were 5 minutes plus left!).

If the leader and other players cant see the security Konga being wheeled out with 5 minutes left (as a bare minimum SIGN that the game is close to finishing) then they should all visit Dr. Frankenstein who I'm sure will be more than happy to provide them with a frontal lobotomy for a reasonable fee.

I would hope all of the players have learnt from this game to crowd the backline next time. Hopefully next time the win from crowding the backline will come when we beat Collingwood by 1 point.

We are only better than Brisbane if we beat them in a few weeks time Chris. Until then we are worse than the Saints (until we meet them at the G) and possibly better than the Lions. Maybe better than the Blues. But again we won't know until we play them as well.

Until we start winning games we should be winning we are effectively going nowhere as a club, no matter how warm and fuzzy some of us supporters might feel about signs of "progress". Progress is just a nice word that easily rolls off the tongue until you start winning games against clubs ranked within reach of where you are at or lower.

You have my vote RN

With all the heat on Essendrug, knowing our luck, they'll give us a hiding.

And the Blues will do it for Barks!

Fmd.

I don't agree they are poor.

They have been better than their win-loss suggests and their kids are improving.

They have a deeper reserve of experienced players - hell, their core played three grand finals not so long ago - but I think we are improving and have the better mid-term prospects.

We're just coming from a lot further back and I thought you were being too dismissive of their gains and background.

They MAY have a deeper reserve overall, "list wise" , but this wasn't the case with the team fielded yesterday.

Average games experience was only about 5.6 higher than us. Not significant, plus they had 2 extra players at sub 50 games. They had only 1 more experienced player than us at 100 plus games and we had 3 more players than them in the 50 to 100 game category.

The Saints were carrying more rookies than us on the day.

I think the selection of both Stretch and ANB was a mistake. Should have been one only. (Not just saying it now. I said it before the match.)

MELBOURNE coach Paul Roos has questioned whether his message is getting across to the players.

The Demons coughed up a four-point lead on St Kilda with 41 seconds left on the clock on Sunday at Etihad Stadium.

In taking full responsibility for the result, Roos said none of his strategies, designed to stop opposition teams from scoring late in games, were put in place after Jeremy Howe kicked the go-ahead goal.

“Why isn’t the message getting across? We’d (coaching group) need to continue to ask ourselves, are we teaching the right manner,” Roos said on AFL 360.

“I’m angry at myself, I was as angry as I’ve been after a game.

MARK ROBINSON: The worst 41 seconds

FOOTY FAN SURVEY: HAVE YOUR SAY

“Ultimately it comes back to the coach, if you can’t get it done they don’t sack 44 players.

“44 players don’t get sacked, the team didn’t get it done.

“Ultimately we should have had two extra players back.”

Roos said the players would review the loss on Tuesday.

“It’s probably the first time I’ve seen a team that’s in front with that amount of time to go without a number behind the ball,” Roos said.

Collingwood coach Nathan Buckley threw his support behind Roos last night.

“I’ve got no doubt that Melbourne would have a plan and Roosy would have coached that plan through pre-season and at times through home and away.,” Buckley said.

“But the contest does funny things to minds and you really do rely on strong leadership out on the field.”

Roos is trying to keep the heat on himself not the players, reckon pj has had a word about how he blamed them last week

Progress is just a nice word that easily rolls off the tongue until you start winning games against clubs ranked within reach of where you are at or lower.

Which we've already done this season. 3 wins.

Progress.

From reading this Board, you'd think we were at the bottom of the ladder without a win to our name.

looking at the centre bounce set up after Howe's goal, the players in the middle looked like vice, tyson and viney. Why was our captain and best gatherer not in there at the crunch time.

...or why wasn't he in the back line marshalling the troups.

A lot of unanswered questions.

They MAY have a deeper reserve overall, "list wise" , but this wasn't the case with the team fielded yesterday.

Average games experience was only about 5.6 higher than us. Not significant, plus they had 2 extra players at sub 50 games. They had only 1 more experienced player than us at 100 plus games and we had 3 more players than them in the 50 to 100 game category.

The Saints were carrying more rookies than us on the day.

They had Riewoldt, whenever he misses a game they struggle. As a leader he gives them so much confidence and instruction on the ground, not to mention his ability to play the game.

Wiseblood IMO it is this simple.

The list has improved since the end of 2013

The improvement in my view can only be truly judged by wins and losses.

While the losing margins have decreased ( hawks excepted ) I take no joy in being unable to beat the likes of St Kilda.

That shows me that our improvement is only marginal in my view.

You I think see more improvement than that level.

For the better part of fifty years I have been part of the "Gee we played better this week with a little luck we would have won"

The nett result has been we have appeared in a handful of finals in fifty one years.

I no longer subscribe to that idea.

I now hope to win games like yesterday If we don't it just says to me that we are not good enough and have more work to do.

there is little consultation in losing by any amount.

If that offends people tough.

Imagine going to a pub with this guy. What a drainer!

After watching the replay,Im glad Tommy didnt break a knee when he kicked that goal.

Wouldve been season ending for all Dee supporters.

Nil bastardo carborundum !!!!!!!

When I learned this, it was 'nil illegitimus carborundum'. Same effect, must have been a different dialect.

They're not lapping us, the Saints played in a GF in 2010. The Dogs played in Prelims recently.

They still have key leaders from that time, we don't. We are coming from a lot further back than any other team in the competition and this time we have to get it right.

I know 'Saty' hates this but the CS era cost us dearly and it's taking time to get out of the hole.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is one of the most important points most Demonlanders wallowing in pity and "the why always us " culture fail to understand. Our drafts in the early to mid 2000's along with the early moving on of leaders left us a massive void which we are struggling to fill. The future leaders now appear to be there in Viney and Brayshaw but they are AFL babies and a long way off taking this mantle.

Get your house in order as Cats, Swans and Pies do and the end result is the transition from leadership group and young players not being constantly expected to carry the weight of expectation and the hardest tag. You may drop down for a rebuild but it will only be for 3 possibly 4 years not like the 9 pushing 10 we have had.

Which we've already done this season. 3 wins.

Progress.

From reading this Board, you'd think we were at the bottom of the ladder without a win to our name.

We might not be at the bottom but we were still beaten by a lowly team that finished on the bottom last year. You have also taken me out of context by excluding my first paragraph which refers to "team" progress and where I was specifically responding to someone's claim that we were better than Brisbane.

If we lost to one of last year's finalists, or even better, one of last year's Grand Finalists I can understand people using that to say "hey look we did things in that game that were big progress on past year vs a rated opponent".

You can throw in Reiwoldt or a marginally better list as an excuse as to why we lost but regardless we still lost.

If we had won against a finalist from last year then i have no doubts many on here would be running around saying "hey we beat a rated opponent". Same goes the other way. We lost to a lowly opponent who might be on the improve list wise, but isn't rated and were officially the worst team in the AFL last season.

If we beat them on the G in a few weeks time I will happily agree with you and some others here and say we are progressing against them "as a team" on the G! As for shityhad? Well that's another massive hurdle altogether. ..and has now become a mountain.

Edited June 16, 201510 yr by Rusty Nails

Just watched the replay

Best game Watts gas ever played. Now he needs to show he can do it vs a big bodied team down at Geelong

And I laughed at Bomber Thompson saying Hogan looks skinny,

The last fortnight Watts has shown something he has rarely, if ever shown in the 5 years prior. A willingness to take the game on and evade through traffic. Hopefully he keeps it up and doesn't get discouraged when he gets caught with the ball (as he did on the weekend). He just needs to perfect his timing now, knowing when to get rid of the ball.

You are proving my point we got beaten by a poor team like us.

If we cannot beat this mob what hope the Cats on the weekend.

Wiseblood IMO it is this simple.

The list has improved since the end of 2013

The improvement in my view can only be truly judged by wins and losses.

While the losing margins have decreased ( hawks excepted ) I take no joy in being unable to beat the likes of St Kilda.

That shows me that our improvement is only marginal in my view.

You I think see more improvement than that level.

For the better part of fifty years I have been part of the "Gee we played better this week with a little luck we would have won"

The nett result has been we have appeared in a handful of finals in fifty one years.

I no longer subscribe to that idea.

I now hope to win games like yesterday If we don't it just says to me that we are not good enough and have more work to do.

there is little consultation in losing by any amount.

If that offends people tough.

Oh FFS, you act like we got thumped out the park. It was a 50/50 game, had the siren gone 30 seconds earlier we win.

If you can't see the improvement since 2013 where now we expect to win games whereas back then we could only expect to not lose by more than 10 goals then I can't help you.

I honestly dont understand how anyone cannot see the genuine potential that Melbournes list has for the near future. I don't think we have ever had a list in the last 5-8 years where if we had 10 or so injuries to players who would no doubt be starting or pushing for spots and still be competitive in every facet of the game.

This is making up for the re-build which we failed from 2008-2012.

If even half of the top picks we stuffed up in that time were good players I would imagine we would be playing finals now.

This current young crop so far looks good, hopefully they can all stay on the park and our more senior players can come along with them for the ride.

Hell Dr where did you get my photo?