Patrick McCartin

[binman 38,830]

Perhaps you could take a leaf out of HH's book, and add to that:

I will never post on Demonland again.

.....and continue to post?

[nutbean 8,837]

This is something I no longer care about.

We have enough mature bodies now.

I want the players who will be the best in 3-4 years' time.

What's the point in having a kid that can scrape into the 22 now if that's all he'll ever be able to do?

Being a man child at 18 is not indicative of their development by the age of 22.

And "ready to go round one" is a bit of nonsense statement - the amount of draftees that come in and make a big impact season one is very small..I am not talking about some good games - I am referring to week in and week out contributors like Wines was year one. Last years draft - maybe 3 - Taylor, McDonald and Bontempelli. ( to a lesser extent Dunstan and Billings). That's out of some 60 selected.

[Deemotivated 550]

And "ready to go round one" is a bit of nonsense statement - the amount of draftees that come in and make a big impact season one is very small..I am not talking about some good games - I am referring to week in and week out contributors like Wines was year one. Last years draft - maybe 3 - Taylor, McDonald and Bontempelli. ( to a lesser extent Dunstan and Billings). That's out of some 60 selected.

Its all a throw back to our habit of drafting skinny kids.

[nutbean 8,837]

If we overlook this kid and someone else takes him and he makes an immediate impact Then several things will happen

I will hark back to the shizen recruiting that saw Ollie Wines become an overnight sensation

I will seriously question our recruiting staff and

I will struggle to continue to support an administration that has got it wrong YET AGAIN!!

Demonland will also go into a complete meltdown!

First of all - Demonland will go into Meltdown no matter who pick at pick 3 as there are such conflicting views by the posters on here.

No one will bat at eyelid at Brayshaw but I apologise in advance to our pick 3 as he will get flayed by half the posters here.

I want to take you up on your logic.

If you want to McCartin at pick 3 then you should not be questioning the recruiting staff on not picking Wines.

Expert opinion has McCartin going in the top 3 picks by almost everyone ( tell me if I am wrong)

Expert opinion in 2012 had Toumpas going in the top 4 picks and before Wines by everyone ( tell me again if I am wrong).

You can't have it both ways. You select what is considered the best at the pick by the experts - McCartin and Toumpas - or you don't and then we take a Wines/Lever/Laverde.

( disclaimer - I have stated that I have no problem moving away from what the "experts" think as the likes of Wines and Bontempelli are perfect examples of the "Experts" getting it wrong)

Edited November 6, 2014 by nutbean

[nutbean 8,837]

Its all a throw back to our habit of drafting skinny kids.

don't agree with this either - you would hardly call Lewis Taylor - muscled up.

And we got some value this season from JKH .

Whilst size has an impact, it doesn't dictate if you are ready to go round one or not.

Edited November 6, 2014 by nutbean

[Bossdog 2,002]

I don't think any of our new recruits will play seniors until around Rd 13 or 14 ... Just the feeling I get with Roos in charge ... They wont be played until their ready.

[nutbean 8,837]

I don't think any of our new recruits will play seniors until around Rd 13 or 14.......Just the feeling I get with Roos in charge.....They wont be played until their ready

Why would you say that ? JKH played round 1. Salem round 6.

[Bossdog 2,002]

Why would you say that ? JKH played round 1. Salem round 6.

I think we have a bit more depth than last year round 1.....As I said... just a feeling and could be wro...wro...wrong(There I said it)

[picket fence 15,408]

First of all - Demonland will go into Meltdown no matter who pick at pick 3 as there are such conflicting views by the posters on here.

No one will bat at eyelid at Brayshaw but I apologise in advance to our pick 3 as he will get flayed by half the posters here.

I want to take you up on your logic.

If you want to McCartin at pick 3 then you should not be questioning the recruiting staff on not picking Wines.

Expert opinion has McCartin going in the top 3 picks by almost everyone ( tell me if I am wrong)

Expert opinion in 2012 had Toumpas going in the top 4 picks and before Wines by everyone ( tell me again if I am wrong).

You can't have it both ways. You select what is considered the best at the pick by the experts - McCartin and Toumpas - or you don't and then we take a Wines/Lever/Laverde.

( disclaimer - I have stated that I have no problem moving away from what the "experts" think as the likes of Wines and Bontempelli are perfect examples of the "Experts" getting it wrong)

I consider my views "Expert" I went for Ollie Wines over Jimmy Toumpas.

That's 1 zip.

I now go for McCartin at pick 3 if Saints don't take him first!!!

Now if we don't get him and he has an impact straight away and whoever else we grab doesn't have an impact straight away then that gives me

2 Zip

So who are the 'Real Experts"??

Hmmm

Remember Hogan still hasn't played and if he still continues with lingering after effects then stuffed if I want to see Pederson and Fitzy playing the key Forward roles.

And If Hogan does come up, then great for us we have potentially the best possible Forward combo we have had for some time.

Now that is sound logic!

The Levers and Laverde's are not top 3 plus DON'T FILL OUR MOST PRESSING NEEDS So why oh why would you consider them??

Nup recruiting is easy, if you can see the real wood for the trees! And remember don't go for twigs, go a few strong branches that will bear some fruit!

[Machsy 2,858]

It's a given that we'll take at least one of Brayshaw and Petracca.

You don't think either of those will be pushing for a spot before round 1?

I'd be shocked if they didnt force their way in within the first 3 games.

[Machsy 2,858]

I consider my views "Expert" I went for Ollie Wines over Jimmy Toumpas

That's 1 zip

I now go for Mc Cartin at pick 3 if Saints don't take him first!

Now if we don't get him and he has an impact straight away and whoever else we grab doesn't have an impact straight away then that gives me

2 Zip

So who are the 'Real Experts"??

Hnmm

Christ, you set the bar really really low for an "expert", don't you?

[TheoX 1,218]

First of all - Demonland will go into Meltdown no matter who pick at pick 3 as there are such conflicting views by the posters on here.

No one will bat at eyelid at Brayshaw but I apologise in advance to our pick 3 as he will get flayed by half the posters here.

I want to take you up on your logic.

If you want to McCartin at pick 3 then you should not be questioning the recruiting staff on not picking Wines.

Expert opinion has McCartin going in the top 3 picks by almost everyone ( tell me if I am wrong)

Expert opinion in 2012 had Toumpas going in the top 4 picks and before Wines by everyone ( tell me again if I am wrong).

You can't have it both ways. You select what is considered the best at the pick by the experts - McCartin and Toumpas - or you don't and then we take a Wines/Lever/Laverde.

( disclaimer - I have stated that I have no problem moving away from what the "experts" think as the likes of Wines and Bontempelli are perfect examples of the "Experts" getting it wrong)

Isn't the argument that we take the relatively ready-made aggresive competitive beast in McCartin (akin to Wines), who is in this case is also the expert's consensus top 3 pick, rather than the skinny project outside Laverde type or injury ravaged Lever type. So we can have it both ways.

[Slartibartfast 15,918]

I just realise that there are very few chances to get the kind of talent our midfield needs;

The medium to long term investments we have made in the midfield, to add to Jones, are; Tyson, Vince, Salem, JKH, Viney, Kent, and Newton. That's not enough.

Just a couple of things.

I reckon our list needs talent. We have very few chances to get talent so I think we should take the best talent available at 2 and 3 regardless of what position they play. And Nut is right, in 2 years we'll be lamenting the "one that got away".

Also I don't understand the 12 mids theory.

22 Players

2 Rucks

Frost, McDonald, Hogan, Dawes,

Jetta, Grimes, Howe, Garlett, Dunn, Watts, Garland. Surely they get games (ignoring the DL groupthink that Grimes and Watts can't play)

That leaves 9. We may also go with a third tall forward.

You've ignored Brayshaw (who we are certain to pick if you believe the press), Michie, Riley and others that may be drafted in or obtained through free agency.

I've ignored Lumumba and Cross because I assume you think they won't go past 2016. Lumumba most certainly will and will either be a mid or in the "other" group.

Your "12 mids" doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I've no idea who we'll pick. I'm glad Taylor and Viney and crew will pick him and not DL. Just draft talent (which includes attributes to succeed at AFL level), it's pretty easy really.

[rpfc 27,591]

Modern footy has seen a move away from a traditional 6 forwards, 6 backs, 3 mids, 2 wings, a ruck, and bench spot back up for the fwds, backs, mids, and ruck.

A ruck, three marking forwards, one of which has to be a back-up ruck, a small forward, three tall defenders, one small defender, and possibly a dedicated HBF who doesn't go into the rotations.

The bench would have two more mids and a backup defensive minded player.

The sub would always be one of the rotation.

So of the 22 I would have 5 or 6 defenders, 4 dedicated forwards, 1 ruck and the other 11 or 12 would be part of the midfield rotation that plays HFF, HBF, wing, centre, and the traditional and anachronistic rover positions.

I see the better teams playing with a platoon in the middle and we can compete with Jones, Tyson, and Vince, but our second and third units are not near being good enough.

We can compete with 7 or 8 solid mids, but if we want to win against the best midfields - and that is where the game is won - we are going to need an engine room that deep.

[rpfc 27,591]

it's pretty easy really.

As a Melbourne supporter over the past decade - evidently, it isn't.

[Machsy 2,858]

Isn't the argument that we take the relatively ready-made aggresive competitive beast in McCartin (akin to Wines), who is in this case is also the expert's consensus top 3 pick, rather than the skinny project outside Laverde type or injury ravaged Lever type. So we can have it both ways.

This is where it gets ridiculous when you obviously push your agenda, just because of your belief that McCartin is the better choice.

Lever isn't injury ravaged; he has suffered one longterm injury. That's it.

[picket fence 15,408]

^{But a pretty significant one at that , remember Toumpas came with injury baggage.}

^{Once bitten trice shy is the prudent way to go I believe!}

[Deemotivated 550]

don't agree with this either - you would hardly call Lewis Taylor - muscled up.

And we got some value this season from JKH .

Whilst size has an impact, it doesn't dictate if you are ready to go round one or not.

I agree with you. My point is posters talking about drafting kids "ready to go round 1" are blinded by kids with size about them due to our poor recent drafting of skinny kids who never developed.

[nutbean 8,837]

I think we have a bit more depth than last year round 1.....As I said... just a feeling and could be wro...wro...wrong(There I said it)

I hope for the opposite - I hope that pick 2&3's form in the NAB challenge absolutely demand that they picked in round one and they maintain and improve the form so they cannot be dislodged from the team (hope is a very dangerous thing)

[jacey 333]

if you can see the real wood for the trees!

If you look at something long enough, you will find faults and forgot why you like that player.

Jack Darling and Ollie Wines were competitive beasts. Talented but the longer you look at them, the deficiencies stood out.

Darling was short. 191cm. Way too short for KPP.

Also was far more developed then other kids and played bully ball. Might not translate to AFL as everyone's big and strong. + the off field the WCE peddled

Ollie Wines u18's record is sensational. Again more developed and played bully ball so question marks raised.

All competitive beasts who continue to improve and get better.

I'm not sure why people think been developed physically early means there is little or no development left.

Pat is an exciting KPP talent that needs development and his ceiling is just as high as any other kid.

[rjay 23,970]

Modern footy has seen a move away from a traditional 6 forwards, 6 backs, 3 mids, 2 wings, a ruck, and bench spot back up for the fwds, backs, mids, and ruck.

I hope we can find or develop a ruck who can play like a mid and get his own ball, at the moment for us it is a wasted position on the ground.

[rpfc 27,591]

I hope we can find or develop a ruck who can play like a mid and get his own ball, at the moment for us it is a wasted position on the ground.

The easier-to-find option is a tall forward who is not useless doing 25 minutes in the ruck.

Edit: Thought you meant the backup ruck.

Different types of rucks are desired - tap rucks like Jamar are becoming irrelevant, but they have their place if they have a midfield to service.

I agree that a more mobile ruck that can affect the game more is desired, but not essential - if he can get 30 taps and kick 2 goals he is value in my eyes and will make the other team work to keep him quiet.

Edited November 7, 2014 by rpfc

[nutbean 8,837]

Isn't the argument that we take the relatively ready-made aggresive competitive beast in McCartin (akin to Wines), who is in this case is also the expert's consensus top 3 pick, rather than the skinny project outside Laverde type or injury ravaged Lever type. So we can have it both ways.

I have no idea who to take - but what I do know is your description of McCartin as ready made competitive beast looks ok in an under 18 competition but what about next year in the big league ?

As a midfielder I think we need "a class act; a humble, hard-working player able to cut teams up with his skill and scoring ability". That is Emma Quayles description of Jimmy Toumpas. He may well turn out to be that way but hows the description looking two years in ??

If we want versatile big man how about this guy ? " A centre half-forward who can also play key defensive post. Reads ball in the air better than most. Endurance for a big man is first class so covers lots of ground and could be groomed to replace Jonathan Brown" This was description of Lucas Cook!! ( the Brown reference is Jay Clark had him going to the Lions - if only !)

So your description of McCartin well may be right - it well may wrong as well...

[nutbean 8,837]

^{But a pretty significant one at that , remember Toumpas came with injury baggage.}

^{Once bitten trice shy is the prudent way to go I believe!}

You wouldn't have taken Judd ?

[rjay 23,970]

The easier-to-find option is a tall forward who is not useless doing 25 minutes in the ruck.

Edit: Thought you meant the backup ruck.

Different types of rucks are desired - tap rucks like Jamar are becoming irrelevant, but they have their place if they have a midfield to service.

I agree that a more mobile ruck that can affect the game more is desired, but not essential - if he can get 30 taps and kick 2 goals he is value in my eyes and will make the other team work to keep him quiet.

I think if he stays fit then Gawn could offer us this, he does get the footy. He who can't be named now at catland is the ideal for me...