Jump to content

  • IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

    The Demonland Terms of Service, which you have all recently agreed to, strictly prohibit discussions of ongoing legal matters, whether criminal or civil. Please ensure that all discussions on this forum remain focused solely on on-field & football related topics.


Recommended Posts

Posted

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

  • Like 5

Posted

I like the premise RPFC. Malthouse and Clarkson have both said that you need 30 AFL Quality (Calibre in your terminology) players to be a realistic top 4 chance. We clearly have a way to go.

You've mentioned the middling teams. Have you done the analysis on where their lists sit? This will save me doing it over lunch and adding to the discussion for debate! An analysis of the top teams would no doubt have 30-odd in the AFL Calibre and few in the Not Good Enough Category, with most of the 'not there yets' in the Potential or More info (i.e. first year players / rookies) lists.

Posted

Collingwood:

ELITE MID: Pendlebury, Beams

ROTATIONAL MID: Swan, Sidebottom, Ball, J Thomas, Macaffer, Blair, Young

POSTIONAL ROLE PLAYERS: Grundy, Maxwell, Goldsack, Lumumba, Witts, Brown, White, Elliott, Reid, Williams, Cloke, Toovey, Langdon, Frost,

---

POTENTIAL: Fasolo, Dwyer, Kennedy, Adams, Keeffe, Sinclair, Seedsman

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Clarke, Lynch, Armstrong, Karnezis

MORE INFO REQ: Broomhead, Ramsay, Scharenberg, Freeman, Oxley, Martin, Yagmoor, Gault, Mooney

So the wash up is 23 AFL Calibre Players, including 2 of the top 20 and another couple in the top 50.

Only 4 players that I'm calling not good enough, plus a healthy list of Potential Players and 2 top-10 picks in the "More Info Required" list.

I'll tackle Hawthorn a bit later.

Posted

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

Posted

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

Maybe a "no longer good enough" category for Byrnes & Clark would suit you better. Mario Bortolotto has two premiership medals at home as well ! Doesn't mean he's currently "good enough". Byrnes is obviously past his peak.

  • Like 6
Posted

Hawthorn:

ELITE MID: Mitchell, Hodge,

ROTATIONAL MID: Lewis, Burgoyne, Hill, Sewell, Smith, Puopolo, Rioli,

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Roughead, Suckling, Gibson, McEvoy, Duryea, Whitecross, Cheney, Birchall, Lake, Gunston, Breust, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Shiels, Spangher,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Langford, Litherland, Simpkin, Hartung,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Hale (slightly controversial - but I believe the end is coming quick for him), Anderson, Garlett,

NOT ENOUGH INFO: O'Brien, Lowden, Kelly, Grimley, Hallanhan, Woodward, Sicily, Brand, Ross, Wanganeen, Willsmore, Webster, Heatherley, Tatupu

That's 26 AFL CALIBRE, and you'd be pretty confident in declaring the 4 potentials as the same. Only 3 Not Good Enoughs, but I'd suspect a few of the more info required players won't even get a chance to show their stuff at AFL level.

Posted

How many games would our firsts team win in the VFL?

Our firsts team would obviously be dominant at VFL level, simply because the gap is huge and growing.

Posted

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

I think you've approached this pretty well 'rp', might have a couple in different columns but the wash up is pretty right.

The middling teams you mentioned are all on the way up as well and it points to the need for further assistance if we are to be competitive in the short to medium term. If the AFL is serious about levelling up the competition then we would need at least 2 PP's this season, one tied to our position and another end of first round. We could then look at seriously trading in some talent without effecting the its balance and need to bring in future stars.

Posted

Pretty close to what I think RPFC.

My only criticism would be that you have been a little generous to M Jones

His quickness and boldness just outweigh his skill issues, but I can understand the view that he is not good enough. I think that Mid Rotation was the group that fits him the best.

Posted

Pretty close to what I think RPFC.

My only criticism would be that you have been a little generous to M Jones

Thought long and hard about him too 'old dee', but he would probably be a decent depth player at one of the good clubs. He does work hard, get a bit of the ball and has a bit of pace. Trouble is with us he is just about a walk up start rather than depth.

A bit of a 50/50.

Posted

Hawthorn:

ELITE MID: Mitchell, Hodge,

ROTATIONAL MID: Lewis, Burgoyne, Hill, Sewell, Smith, Puopolo, Rioli,

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Roughead, Suckling, Gibson, McEvoy, Duryea, Whitecross, Cheney, Birchall, Lake, Gunston, Breust, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Shiels, Spangher,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Langford, Litherland, Simpkin, Hartung,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Hale (slightly controversial - but I believe the end is coming quick for him), Anderson, Garlett,

NOT ENOUGH INFO: O'Brien, Lowden, Kelly, Grimley, Hallanhan, Woodward, Sicily, Brand, Ross, Wanganeen, Willsmore, Webster, Heatherley, Tatupu

That's 26 AFL CALIBRE, and you'd be pretty confident in declaring the 4 potentials as the same. Only 3 Not Good Enoughs, but I'd suspect a few of the more info required players won't even get a chance to show their stuff at AFL level.

Roughead - positional role player....highly amusing, Birchall.....even more...I am glad rpfc started this topic....

Posted

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

Clark is retired and Byrnes about to be retired - for the prurposes of not having another group I put them there.

As for Fitzpatrick - I was never 'praising him from the mountain tops' and when some on here were saying he is better than Dawes my eyes were rolling and I was negatively judging their football knowledge.

And the meat is the thread - the discussion - it's not meant to be in one post.

Who do you disagree with?

Posted

Roughead - positional role player....highly amusing, Birchall.....even more...I am glad rpfc started this topic....

You need to read this properly 'Sat'...neither Roughead nor Birchall are elite mids. Roughead could be argued as a rotational mid.

So where would you put them?

Potential, not good enough or not enough info?

  • Like 2
Posted

Grimes is absolute borderline imo if we are to seriously rise.

But otherwise agree.

And i also knew Satyr would react as he did.

Highly amusing /)

  • Like 2
Posted

You need to read this properly 'Sat'...neither Roughead nor Birchall are elite mids. Roughead could be argued as a rotational mid.

So where would you put them?

Potential, not good enough or not enough info?

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

Posted

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

I think you are overating Nathan Jones calling him an "Elite" mid! Very good yes, elite not yet!

Just my view!

  • Like 1
Posted

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

That's what I'm saying.

Posted

yeh man, i got your back bro ;) lol

  • Like 2
Posted

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

That's what I'm saying in answer to 'Sat', not arguing with 'rp' at all.

Posted

Clark is retired and Byrnes about to be retired - for the prurposes of not having another group I put them there.

As for Fitzpatrick - I was never 'praising him from the mountain tops' and when some on here were saying he is better than Dawes my eyes were rolling and I was negatively judging their football knowledge.

And the meat is the thread - the discussion - it's not meant to be in one post.

Who do you disagree with?

It's your opinion, it is not about disagreeing with your opinion, I just have a different one on a couple........unfortunately it's just yet another topic for the recidivist bashers to spew forth their normal twaddle......

Posted (edited)

I wouldn't call Jones an elite midfielder. If he were elite, we'd win more of the ball out of the middle.

Dangerfield is an elite midfielder.

Edited by praha
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

That's what I'm saying in answer to 'Sat', not arguing with 'rp' at all.

But it does if you have mixed categories, does this mean that players who are not positional role players, or mid rotation or elite, are necessarily not AFL calibre.......I would give you a perfect example, if we all saw Zac Dawson for the first time and knew nothing about him, most would be horrified, he is slow, can't kick, etc etc so most would say not AFL calibre but I bet Ross Lyon would disagree.........it is all relative, if you are on an AFL list you are an AFL calibre player.....another let's delist these spuds topic in another guise.....ho hum

Edited by Satyriconhome
Posted

Thought long and hard about him too 'old dee', but he would probably be a decent depth player at one of the good clubs. He does work hard, get a bit of the ball and has a bit of pace. Trouble is with us he is just about a walk up start rather than depth.

A bit of a 50/50.

at this stage MJ looks a bit of this & a bit of that... needs to pull himself up out of the blancmange. I sense he has it BUT. can he lift.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Monday 17th February 2025

    Demonland Trackwatchers were on hand at Monday morning's preseason training at Gosch's Paddock to bring you their brief observations of the session. HARVEY WALLBANGER'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Gentle flush session at Gosch's this morning. Absent: May, Pickett (All Stars) McVee, McAdam. Rehabbing: Great to see Kentfield back (much slimmer), walking with Tholstrup, TMac (suspect just a management thing), Viney (still being cautious with that rib cartilage?), Melksham (

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    MATCH SIM: Friday 14th February 2025

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers made their way out to Casey Field's for the Melbourne Football Club's Family Series day to bring you their observations on the Match Simulation. HARVEY WALLBANGER'S MATCH SIMULATION OBSERVATIONS Absent: May, Pickett (All Stars), McVee, Windor, Kentfield, Mentha Present but not playing: Petracca, Viney, Spargo, Tholstrup, Melksham Starting Blue 18 (+ just 2 interchange): B: Petty, TMac, Lever, Howes, Bowey Salem M: Gawn, Oliver, La

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Wednesday 12th February 2025

    Demonland Trackwatchers braved the scorching morning heat to bring you the following observations of Wednesday's preseason training session from Gosch's Paddock. HARVEY WALLBANGER'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Absent: Salem, Windsor (word is a foot rash going around), Viney, Bowey and Kentfield Train ons: Roy George, no Culley today. Firstly the bad news - McVee went down late, which does look like a bad hammy - towards the end of match sim, as he kicked the ball. Had to

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    MATCH SIM: Friday 7th February 2025

    Demonland Trackwatcher Gator ventured down the freeway to bring you his observations from Friday morning's Match Simulation out at Casey Fields. Rehab: Jake Lever and Charlie Spargo running laps.  Lever was running short distances at a fast click as well as having kick to kick with a trainer. He seems unimpeded. Christian Petracca, Kade Chandler, Shane McAdam and Tom Fullarton doing non-contact kicking and handball drills on the adjacent oval.  All moving freely at pace.  I didn’

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    TRAINING: Wednesday 5th February 2025

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force as the Demons returned to Gosch's Paddock for preseason training on Wednesday morning. GHOSTWRITER'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Kozzie a no show. Tommy Sparrow was here last week in civvies and wearing sunnies. He didn’t train. Today he’s training but he’s wearing goggles so he’s likely got an eye injury. There’s a drill where Selwyn literally lies on top of Tracc, a trainer dribbles the ball towards them and Tracc has to g

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    THAT WAS THE YEAR THAT WAS: 2024

    Whichever way you look at it, the Melbourne Football Club’s 2024 season can only be characterized as the year of its fall from grace. Whispering Jack looks back at the season from hell that was. After its 2021 benchmark premiership triumph, the men’s team still managed top four finishes in the next two seasons but straight sets finals losses consigned them to sixth place in both years. The big fall came in 2024 with a collapse into the bottom six and a 14th placing. At Casey, the 2022 VFL p

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    MATCH SIM: Friday 31st January 2025

    Veteran Demonland Trackwatcher Picket Fence ventured down to Casey Fields to bring you his observations from Friday's Match Simulation. Greetings Demonlanders, beautiful Day at training and the boys were hard at it, here is my report. NO SHOWS: Luker Kentfield (recovering from pneumonia in WA), also not sure I noticed Melky (Hamstring) or Will Verrall?? MODIFIED DUTIES (No Contact): Sparrow, McVee (foot), Tracc (ribs), Chandler, (AC Joint), Fullarton Noticeable events (I’ll s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    TRAINING: Wednesday 29th January 2025

    A number of Demonland Trackwatchers swooped on Gosch's Paddock to bring you their observations from this morning's Preseason Training Session. DEMON JACK'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Beautiful morning at Gosch's Paddock. Very healthy crowd so far.  REHAB: Fullerton, Spargo, Tholstrup, McVee Viney running laps. EDIT: JV looks to be back with the main group. Trac, Sparrow, Chandler and Verrell also training away from the main group. Currently kicking to each other ins

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 1

    TRAINING: Wednesday 22nd January 2025

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force for training at Gosch's Paddock on Wednesday morning for the MFC's School Holidays Open Training Session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS REHAB: TMac, Chandler, McVee, Tholstrup, Brown, Spargo Brown might have passed his fitness test as he’s back out with the main group.  Sparrow not present. Kozzy not present either.  Mini Rehab group has broken off from the match sim (contact) group: Max, Trac, Lever, Fullarton

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...