What use is keeping a very limited skilled player Mc Kenzie who's tagging ability is questionable anyway?? I would much rather not tag fullstop and develop players who are creative and damaging, thus forcing opposition teams to not just tag Jones, Tyson and Vince but tag multiple players because of the damage they do!

Nup Pay out his contract or trade (doubtful) and move on!

Agree with most of the others

Blease Trade, Clisby doesn't appear to be in the plan Tapscott, Strauss, Nicholson Evans all have had chances, time to really move with clinical precision and ruthlessly those who won't or can't make it in a Melbourne jumper!

Best post i've read in quite a while.

The Demons have been trailing and tagging the coat tails of opposition players for decades with no success

We need star players, at least 2 and ideally 3. And i don't mean average/good players. I mean genuine superstars.

I would trade 12 to 14 average to sub par players on our list (many of who have already been mentioned in the above threads multiple times) to get my hands on those 2 or 3.

As we've seen with GCS, you can build a reasonably competitve team around 1 super star (until he went down anyway). Imagine if we had 2 or more. We need our opponents to be worrying about/chasing us through the mid and around stoppages for a change, and still be able to perform and break their tag/kick match winning goals etc. Not the other way around pretty much every match and even against dud teams/mediocre players.

Bring this and we can build a winning team.

Don't, and all we will get is more of the same for decades to come. That's if the club survives long enough to see more of the same BS for decades.

There is surely going to be a clean out of players aged between 22 - 25 on our list who have not been able to cement a spot in our senior side. This is the bracket that we need to hit in my opinion.

Without taking existing contracts into consideration (or presuming we can either trade or payout anyone that we don't want/need next year, this is the way I see it;

The following 9 payers to be traded or de-listed. Presuming we can arrange a trade for at least 2 of these (albeit for late picks or other fringe players), that leaves us with approximately 7 spots to fill.

1) Jordie McKenzie (possible trade?)

2) Mitch Clisby

3) Sam Blease (possible trade?)

4) James Strauss

5) Daniel Nicholson

6) Michael Evans

7) Luke Tapscott (possible trade?)

8) Dean Terlich

9) Jack Fitzpatrick (possible trade?)

Note that the following 3 players get a reprieve due to not wanting to take too many low draft picks, and not having much ruck depth;

Rohan Bail

Matt Jones

Spencer

The following 2 players leaving under differing circumstances leaves us with approximately 9 spots to fill;

Frawley

Clark

Upgrade Jetta, which leaves us with approximately 8 spots to fill, plus a rookie.

1) 1st round pick

2 plus 3) compensation pick (trade for a player plus a pick)

4) 2nd round pick

5) 3rd round pick

6) 4th round pick

7) 5th round pick

8) presume 1 or 2 latish picks were traded in for say, Blease, Fitzpatrick, McKenzie or Tapscott

Rookie pick

In addition to all of this, I believe we should have Jack Watts on the trade table. Not necessarily for a draft pick - but in a player deal such as (eg); priority pick and Jack Watts for Tom Mitchell, Zac Jones and Nick Malceski.

I'm in general agreement D16 with the exception of the 2 highlighted.

I'm not sure where Clisby is at injury or form wise as i haven't been following. But based on the 3 matches i have stats on from last year....his uncontested, effective disposal and effective disposal percentage is up there with the best in the team.

He ranked No. 1 in uncontested.

Equal 1st in Effective disposals alongside the Jones Boy

He ranked 3rd in effective disposal %. 10 percentage points higher than the Jones boy, 8 percentage points higher than Howe, and 4 higher than Watts!

2nd in bounces (run and carry/breaking lines?... sadly lacking in our team and we are ranked pretty much bottom of table vs all other clubs in this area this season!)

Was it injury or form that's prevented him from making an appearance this year? Maybe both? Others who watch Casey with interest might be able to enlighten me.

With regard to Spencil, i really don't think we are short on Ruck options. I think both or at least one of the Maxs will provide us with enough alternatives here, at least until we find an alternative to the Russian if these dont' work out in the medium term. And i think Spencil has had many chances above those two without really putting his mark on the park in most of those matches.

I think also it's important to look at who won't be at the club by the end of 2016:

Frawley

McKenzie

Clisby

Blease

Strauss

Riley

Nicholson

Evans

Tapscott

Barry

Gawn

Spencer

Bail

M. Jones

Terlich

Fitzpatrick

Included in that list is our entire ruck stock, which is quite damning.

Roos has his worked cut out for him. 16 out of 40 players gone by 2016, not factoring in retirement of Cross next year, and probably Jamar in '16.

The club absolutely has to nail drafting and trading this year and next otherwise it'll be in the exact same position it is in now for another 5-6 years.

EDIT: And Watts should be traded. We keep having this discussion and I think he still has trade value that can bring the club someone that is more suited to the type of style Roos wants to play.

Why the hell would Gawn be gone?

cant see Clisby , Spencer or Gawn being moved on... Not currently anyhow

Need Rucks.. and going fwd. Clisby hasnt had a real chance to stuff up yet.

Why the hell would Gawn be gone?

Agree - no way. You wouldn't delist a player like Gawn until you were absolutely dead certain he was no good; not reaching true AFL standard until he is 27 is a real possibility for a guy built like him and with his history. Peter Street spent 9 seasons in the AFL system for crying out loud. There aren't many players I'd offer almost unlimited patience to but Gawn is one of them.

I think also it's important to look at who won't be at the club by the end of 2016:

Frawley

McKenzie

Clisby

Blease

Strauss

Riley

Nicholson

Evans

Tapscott

Barry

Gawn

Spencer

Bail

M. Jones

Terlich

Fitzpatrick

Included in that list is our entire ruck stock, which is quite damning.

Roos has his worked cut out for him. 16 out of 40 players gone by 2016, not factoring in retirement of Cross next year, and probably Jamar in '16.

The club absolutely has to nail drafting and trading this year and next otherwise it'll be in the exact same position it is in now for another 5-6 years.

EDIT: And Watts should be traded. We keep having this discussion and I think he still has trade value that can bring the club someone that is more suited to the type of style Roos wants to play.

Gawn, Riley, Bail and Barry will survive from that group and they will all be depth, although Gawny may be Number 1 ruck by then

Frawley will be either here or replaced by his compo pick or who it was on traded for

So that's 11 out of 40 changes over 2 years hardly alarming or out of the ordinary with other team list changes

Agree - no way. You wouldn't delist a player like Gawn until you were absolutely dead certain he was no good; not reaching true AFL standard until he is 27 is a real possibility for a guy built like him and with his history. Peter Street spent 9 seasons in the AFL system for crying out loud. There aren't many players I'd offer almost unlimited patience to but Gawn is one of them.

The old adage of a 180cm player having 5 mins to prove to you he has it, while a 195cm has 5 years to prove that he doesn't.

The old adage of a 180cm player having 5 mins to prove to you he has it, while a 195cm has 5 years to prove that he doesn't.

You forget that Gawn is the second-tallest player running around in the AFL and is younger than Sandilands. Certainly there is potential for the making of a unique weapon there!

Gawn is going to be a star

Only someone with zero footy knowledge would ever entertain the idea of delisting him

Any talk of offloading Max Gawn is nonsensical. Our #1 ruckman is reaching the end of his career. Spencer has missed most of this year with injury and we have little else in the way of ruck stocks. I will say however, that if Max is played predominantly as a forward/ruckman against Hawthorn tomorrow then don't expect too much because the ball won't be getting down there too often.

You forget that Gawn is the second-tallest player running around in the AFL and is younger than Sandilands. Certainly there is potential for the making of a unique weapon there!

I forget nothing.

I'm in general agreement D16 with the exception of the 2 highlighted.

I'm not sure where Clisby is at injury or form wise as i haven't been following. But based on the 3 matches i have stats on from last year....his uncontested, effective disposal and effective disposal percentage is up there with the best in the team.

He ranked No. 1 in uncontested.

Equal 1st in Effective disposals alongside the Jones Boy

He ranked 3rd in effective disposal %. 10 percentage points higher than the Jones boy, 8 percentage points higher than Howe, and 4 higher than Watts!

2nd in bounces (run and carry/breaking lines?... sadly lacking in our team and we are ranked pretty much bottom of table vs all other clubs in this area this season!)

Was it injury or form that's prevented him from making an appearance this year? Maybe both? Others who watch Casey with interest might be able to enlighten me.

Clisby has played 10 games in the VFL, spent 5 games on the sidelines with a quad injury this year. Judging by the VFL reports on the club website the knocks have been that he hasn't been getting the ball in damaging spots (ie, he's the sideways target in the backline) and that his defensive work isn't up to the level required (which appears to be a deal breaker for paul roos).

He gets decent numbers in the VFL, however as he plays as a HBF and hasn't had a look in while the likes of Terlich/ M.Jones have played that role I'd think he'd be worried. He's 24 turning 25 in January, he's had 2 (full?) pre-seasons, would think the development is limited from here on in. Same boat as Strauss for mine, would be lucky to keep his spot on the list.

I think also it's important to look at who won't be at the club by the end of 2016:

Frawley

McKenzie

Clisby

Blease

Strauss

Riley

Nicholson

Evans

Tapscott

Barry

Gawn

Spencer

Bail

M. Jones

Terlich

Fitzpatrick

Included in that list is our entire ruck stock, which is quite damning.

Roos has his worked cut out for him. 16 out of 40 players gone by 2016, not factoring in retirement of Cross next year, and probably Jamar in '16.

The club absolutely has to nail drafting and trading this year and next otherwise it'll be in the exact same position it is in now for another 5-6 years.

EDIT: And Watts should be traded. We keep having this discussion and I think he still has trade value that can bring the club someone that is more suited to the type of style Roos wants to play.

You really do need to get facts correct, if you are going to post, entire ruck stock?, er King and Pedersen

Why would we suddenly get rid of Riley after we have spent so long getting him back from a broken leg

I must tell Daniel Cross you want him to retire next year, he looked superb at training yesterday, he can keep getting one year contracts for the next 5 years in my humble opinion

Clisby has played 10 games in the VFL, spent 5 games on the sidelines with a quad injury this year. Judging by the VFL reports on the club website the knocks have been that he hasn't been getting the ball in damaging spots (ie, he's the sideways target in the backline) and that his defensive work isn't up to the level required (which appears to be a deal breaker for paul roos).

He gets decent numbers in the VFL, however as he plays as a HBF and hasn't had a look in while the likes of Terlich/ M.Jones have played that role I'd think he'd be worried. He's 24 turning 25 in January, he's had 2 (full?) pre-seasons, would think the development is limited from here on in. Same boat as Strauss for mine, would be lucky to keep his spot on the list.

Matt Jones hasn't played at HBF.

Matt Jones hasn't played at HBF.

Technically not, but he's named there on the team sheets and he's the sort of player keeping Clisby out of the team.

Man...I just love Demonland after a disappointing loss.....Half the posters want one half of the list gone....the other half want all the other players sacked...We may as well sack them all and be like GWS and start from scratch.

What did people expect of this year??

We have beaten Carlton, Richmond, Adelaide and Essendon this year and been in most games for most of the year....Last year we could not have imagined that.

We have some good youngsters coming through and I have seen improvement in a lot of our players that I didn't expect

We were not going to turn around all those bad years in ONE year

I have trust in the current footy dept to turn this around and I believe this process has started.

Yes we had a really bad game last week but St Kilda smashed Freo so all is not lost after ONE really bad game.

I think also it's important to look at who won't be at the club by the end of 2016:

Frawley

McKenzie

Clisby

Blease

Strauss

Riley

Nicholson

Evans

Tapscott

Barry

Gawn

Spencer

Bail

M. Jones

Terlich

Fitzpatrick

Included in that list is our entire ruck stock, which is quite damning.

Roos has his worked cut out for him. 16 out of 40 players gone by 2016, not factoring in retirement of Cross next year, and probably Jamar in '16.

The club absolutely has to nail drafting and trading this year and next otherwise it'll be in the exact same position it is in now for another 5-6 years.

EDIT: And Watts should be traded. We keep having this discussion and I think he still has trade value that can bring the club someone that is more suited to the type of style Roos wants to play.

Thanks Nostradamas

Man...I just love Demonland after a disappointing loss.....Half the posters want one half of the list gone....the other half want all the other players sacked...We may as well sack them all and be like GWS and start from scratch.

What did people expect of this year??

We have beaten Carlton, Richmond, Adelaide and Essendon this year and been in most games for most of the year....Last year we could not have imagined that.

We have some good youngsters coming through and I have seen improvement in a lot of our players that I didn't expect

We were not going to turn around all those bad years in ONE year

I have trust in the current footy dept to turn this around and I believe this process has started.

Yes we had a really bad game last week but St Kilda smashed Freo so all is not lost after ONE really bad game.

Most people were expecting 5-8 wins, better percentage and significantly less 10+ goal losses. Which has pretty much been achieved.

Not everyone has eternal patience though, we have the lowest winning percentage out of any team over the last 8 years (excl GWS) by so far it's not funny. We have won 1 in 5 games over the last 8 years. So you know, it's kind of understandable that people want to sack half the list, when the list wins 1/5 games.

Man...I just love Demonland after a disappointing loss.....Half the posters want one half of the list gone....the other half want all the other players sacked...We may as well sack them all and be like GWS and start from scratch.

What did people expect of this year??

We have beaten Carlton, Richmond, Adelaide and Essendon this year and been in most games for most of the year....Last year we could not have imagined that.

We have some good youngsters coming through and I have seen improvement in a lot of our players that I didn't expect

We were not going to turn around all those bad years in ONE year

I have trust in the current footy dept to turn this around and I believe this process has started.

Yes we had a really bad game last week but St Kilda smashed Freo so all is not lost after ONE really bad game.

So do you want to stop the improvement there and be happy with it, or do you want to try and get some better players and finish higher than 17th?

Any talk of offloading Max Gawn is nonsensical. Our #1 ruckman is reaching the end of his career. Spencer has missed most of this year with injury and we have little else in the way of ruck stocks. I will say however, that if Max is played predominantly as a forward/ruckman against Hawthorn tomorrow then don't expect too much because the ball won't be getting down there too often.

I have faith in Maxy, he'll come good. Big preseason and no injuries, he'll take the number 1 ruck spot by next year.

If he got delisted just watch how quickly other clubs fight over his signature.

So do you want to stop the improvement there and be happy with it, or do you want to try and get some better players and finish higher than 17th?

Don't want to stop the improvement and list changes will happen as they do each year as teams try to improve their lists

I just thinks it's funny that after last year, posters want 15 changes to the list. but just my opinion. Nothing more or less than that

Delist: Blease, Strauss, Tapscott, Fitz, Nicho.

Treading finely: Terlich, Grimes, Trengove.

There would be others in the VFL I'd sweep out the door.

Evans, Bail and McKenzie I'd persist with for the moment.

Not a lot of credibility here if you're suggesting we think about trading our current and most-recently former captain, but you'd keep Evans, Bail and McKenzie.

Laughable.

Not a lot of credibility here if you're suggesting we think about trading our current and most-recently former captain, but you'd keep Evans, Bail and McKenzie.

Laughable.

You can only trade a player if there is a buyer.

No one would trade for the three above.

Some on our list have some value at the trade table.

IMO you have to give something of worth to improve the list.

There are only a select few on our list that I would not trade.

The only way up is to improve the list we are going to have to trade a few over the next couple of years

Not a lot of credibility here if you're suggesting we think about trading our current and most-recently former captain, but you'd keep Evans, Bail and McKenzie.

Laughable.

We'll see when I re-bump this thread in a couple of years.

Evans buys and sells Grimes as a footballer. I'd keep McKenzie because he is a good tagger/aggressive player.

Bail has shown improvements, enough to suggest he has gone past Grimes.

Jack Grimes simply isn't very good, he is a shocking kick and is slow to put ball to foot.

If Grimes has trade value, I'd off load him. He isn't getting a game on form.

You can only trade a player if there is a buyer.

No one would trade for the three above.

Some on our list have some value at the trade table.

IMO you have to give something of worth to improve the list.

There are only a select few on our list that I would not trade.

The only way up is to improve the list we are going to have to trade a few over the next couple of years

I agree old dee ... the players who we'd ordinarily like to trade or offload would almost certainly have negligible value elsewhere. However, there's sure to be at least some interest in a few of our other players who we'd ordinarily like to keep.

If we were to trade a player to another club who has a fair bit more than negligible value, either club has to take into account that they can lose out on a deal. To get better, we ultimately have to take a risk with our trading.

Last year's trading of pick 2 by us is looking quite good so far. There hasn't been too many complaints from our end but at the time, there were a few concerns. Giving up pick 23 for Vince has been well received as well but again, there was a level of risk attached to that trade.

If last year is anything to go by, I believe we've got a reasonably busy off season coming up. There will be a couple of surprises you'd reckon.