It's all positve

[P-man 13,239]

We lost a game on our home turf to G Ablett and a bunch of kids. That included a shocking second Quarter.

I do not see that as an improvement.

For those who are glad we didn't get blown away..that just shows how far CS threw this club down the S Bend.

Simplistic nonsense. No wonder your misery knows no bounds.

If you are capable of looking little further than the result, the margin was 8 points. Last year on the G it was 60.

Unless you didn't watch the game (which wouldn't surprise me given your previous admission to not watching games), the improvement is clearly there. It is a team coming from a very, very long way back. You stamping your foot and demanding tough decisions does not change that fact.

Calling the Suns "Ablett and a bunch of kids" is also an idiotic appraisal of a team in its 4th year that is widely tipped to be pushing for the 8 this year. They are in fact currently 8th. The profile of their list compared to ours has been pointed out to you, but that doesn't suit your wallowing in loathing.

And rpfc this club does need some tough love and tough decisions or else we will not exist in our present form.

WYL's prediction of doom #456.

I'm so over your garbage. Your constant negativity is a plague. You can't stop subjecting the forum to this complex you've developed.

[Deeoldfart 7,800]

This from the MFC website seems pertinent:

Roos said it was a positive that his side was still able to remain in the hunt, without doing a lot of things right.

“The positive is that we were only eight points down and we didn’t really have a lot of good players to be honest,” he said.

“So that’s positive from one sense, but frustrating in another sense.

I find it hard to disagree with these sentiments, and I reckon most around here would see it the same way.

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

Simplistic nonsense. No wonder your misery knows no bounds.

If you are capable of looking little further than the result, the margin was 8 points. Last year on the G it was 60.

Unless you didn't watch the game (which wouldn't surprise me given your previous admission to not watching games), the improvement is clearly there. It is a team coming from a very, very long way back. You stamping your foot and demanding tough decisions does not change that fact.

Calling the Suns "Ablett and a bunch of kids" is also an idiotic appraisal of a team in its 4th year that is widely tipped to be pushing for the 8 this year. They are in fact currently 8th. The profile of their list compared to ours has been pointed out to you, but that doesn't suit your wallowing in loathing.

WYL's prediction of doom #456.

I'm so over your garbage. Your constant negativity is a plague. You can't stop subjecting the forum to this complex you've developed.

your expectations are too low P Man, but i cannot help you there. It's up to you.

[chookrat 3,778]

Just looking through the list and who appears to have improved this year under Roos.

In my assessment only players out of the 32 left from last year who have shown significant improvement are N.Jones, Dawes, Viney, Frawley, Dunn & Pederson. That leaves 26 who are on an equal basis or have gone backwards.

If we are to win games we need some of the remaining players to show major improvement.

Bail has improved his poor kicking and seems to be more settled.

[P-man 13,239]

your expectations are too low P Man, but i cannot help you there. It's up to you.

My future expectations or my immediate expectations? There is a big difference.

I'm not happy with many parts of the performance, particularly in contrast to the week before, but that dpesn't mean I am oblivious to the improvements that are being made. The little wins, as Roos calls them.

You are bitter and broken, and it increasingly appears that no-one can help you there.

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

My future expectations or my immediate expectations? There is a big difference.

I'm not happy with many parts of the performance, particularly in contrast to the week before, but that dpesn't mean I am oblivious to the improvements that are being made. The little wins, as Roos calls them.

You are bitter and broken, and it increasingly appears that no-one can help you there.

No i am not. You are wrong there.

I expect more from a list of professional footballers playing on their home ground when playing an interstate list of kids & G Ablett.

Watch Dawes interview. That is closer to how i feel.

[Deestar3 167]

Ablett & those kids have played mostly 3 years together. In case you haven't noticed over half our team is new ( age is irrelevant here) ..they are coming up to playing 6 games together & we are still missing some key players & have other players playing in new positions e.g. Frawley. The main difference on the day was Ablett ....we didn't play well & at any other time it would have been a 50 pt thrashing. We have as supporters gone from pre-season desiring no more thrashings to after one win expecting to win all. It was a horrible game but I'll take the 8 point loss...the little improvements & still believe we are well & truly on the right track.

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

Ablett & those kids have played mostly 3 years together. In case you haven't noticed over half our team is new ( age is irrelevant here) ..they are coming up to playing 6 games together & we are still missing some key players & have other players playing in new positions e.g. Frawley. The main difference on the day was Ablett ....we didn't play well & at any other time it would have been a 50 pt thrashing. We have as supporters gone from pre-season desiring no more thrashings to after one win expecting to win all. It was a horrible game but I'll take the 8 point loss...the little improvements & still believe we are well & truly on the right track.

You will take the 8 point loss.

That is exactly why the MFC is where it is.

Age is very relevant btw.

[45HG 1,539]

For the good of the forum, posters, please stop engaging!

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

For the good of the forum, posters, please stop engaging!

are you on a 14 day Verpashna in Thailand 45?

Enjoy

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I'm on both sides..

Of course Roos will continue to spin off the same little 'positives' or 'wins'. That is after all all he can focus on and regurgitate to the media etc.

But Jesus Christ I'm sick to death of hearing it. Even from him.

That game was woeful on our behalf. No matter how many little positives or wins people pick out. I'm just genuinely sick and tired of watching the skill level of so many of our players.

Roos surely knows he's got a lot of work to do with the list. Bring in more talent. Move on the deadwood.

There's my positive. Knowing that there'll certainly be some players gone by seasons end.

Edited April 22, 2014 by stevethemanjordan

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Simplistic nonsense. No wonder your misery knows no bounds.

If you are capable of looking little further than the result, the margin was 8 points. Last year on the G it was 60.

Unless you didn't watch the game (which wouldn't surprise me given your previous admission to not watching games), the improvement is clearly there. It is a team coming from a very, very long way back. You stamping your foot and demanding tough decisions does not change that fact.

Calling the Suns "Ablett and a bunch of kids" is also an idiotic appraisal of a team in its 4th year that is widely tipped to be pushing for the 8 this year. They are in fact currently 8th. The profile of their list compared to ours has been pointed out to you, but that doesn't suit your wallowing in loathing.

WYL's prediction of doom #456.

I'm so over your garbage. Your constant negativity is a plague. You can't stop subjecting the forum to this complex you've developed.

sorry mate it is you that is exhibiting naivety by implying in any way that our performance on Saturday was even close to acceptable or that our opponent on the day was any good whatsoever

it's not negativity for the sake of it, it is the facts of the matter

a top side on their a-game would have done us by 100 on Saturday, no doubt about it

[Guest]

What did people really expect? Five straight wins to start the year? That's more than double than what we got last year. And it's only 1/4 through the season!

I might note that I said to one of the main offenders in this thread earlier in the year that maybe, just maybe, Roos and Jackson might actually fail in the task they were given. I was reassured that they were dead certainties to succeed. Now that things are progressing as expected (or at least at a rate that most learned experts would consider normal), we need to roast the club and all within it. Do we really want to become Richmond of the mid to late 80's? Where everyone gets hauled over the coals based on a result that could have gone either way?
I once said, in a post a very long time ago about what would happen if we actually started winning, that people would whinge about how they don't just want finals, they WANT A FLAG (and how anything besides that would be considered failure)! I noted that these same people would not understand that you don't get from point A to point C without going through point B first. Some of the comments in this thread are pretty indicative of this. We aren't just going to become Geelong or Hawthorn over night. Look back at those two teams in 2002/2003 and 2005 respectively. They started from a low point as well you know.

I would agree with a lot of you that last year was completely unacceptable. I tried to be measured at a certain point last year but when you weighed things up, it was hard not to be completely down on things. Games were over by half time and in some cases, quarter time. Leaving the football absolutely disgusted was commonplace. Of all the games I have watched this year, there has only been one game where I got to the last quarter and we weren't a decent shot for the win (WCE). Let's compare that to round 5 last year. Three straight pantsings (the less said the better), a sluggish effort against GWS where a last quarter burst put us over what WAS a bunch of kids (as opposed to the Suns who are now in their fourth season) and a game against Brisbane where we weren't humiliated on the scoreboard but were run over the top of after half time. Losing should never be acceptable. Let's make that clear. However, losing is only a complete waste of time if you don't learn anything from it. It would appear from the rejigged forward line, our pressure shown in the Carlton game and our improved defence (I believe we average 112 points conceded last year vs. 73 this year) that we have learnt certain things. Losing is not the end we are aiming for. However, to say we can't take anything from a game we have lost is ridiculous.
Whether anyone likes it or not, we (as has been pointed out) are coming from 2 wins and a percentage of 50%. Bring up bad drafting, bring up bad development or bring up bad administration and coaching if you like. You can complain about how this is the rebuilding of a rebuild's rebuild. That's all inconsequential. We are at where we are at. A lot of these arguments are based on false premises in that we actually are a good team. We may have the potential to become good some day but let me remind you: WE ARE NOT A GOOD TEAM. Effort may let us down at times and we will have lapses but this happens to developing teams.

Most of us withdrew our support for the Neeld rebuilding plan as there appeared to be no upside at all one and a half years in and plenty of regression. A lot of us felt that the playing list needed to be whacked with a big stick but how wrong were we? Now, some of us suggest we go down that path again.
We just now need to be patient and see how the current plan goes.
Cue comments about 'I've been waiting 50 years!!!'

Edited April 22, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[nutbean 8,837]

If i work an 8 hour day but completely stuff up for 2 hours when i am aware of accepted procedure is that a positive day for the company?

That depends on how productive your other 6 hours are and whether they compensate for the 2 hours you stuffed up.

There is no doubt in anyones mind that the 2nd quarter was very poor.

We shouldn't accept losing and no AFL player goes out onto the ground to lose.

But you have an expectation the Lada will be turned into a porsche overnight.

I'll ask you this. Do you support Roos and agree with what he is saying - in particular do you agree when he said that we are coming from a long way back and there will be some steps forwards but be prepared for some steps back as well ? ( paraphrasing).

Thats exactly what we saw on Sunday. The difference for me was that as poorly as we played in the 2nd quarter the players didnt throw in the towel ( as previous ) and the effort of most was still there until the end of the game. ( unfortunately in many cases, the execution wasn't)

I hate losing with a passion but am I seeing any rays of light so far this year ? Absolutely. Have there been times this year when it has clouded over and obscured any rays of light ? Absolutely. I am not disillusioned at the moment like I was for the last two years. I am not despairing because I can see areas of improvement.

Do I want to see us win every game going forward ? Absolutely, but I have to temper this with realism and for now whilst I hate losing I will continue to embrace the forward momentum from last year.

[nutbean 8,837]

your expectations are too low P Man, but i cannot help you there. It's up to you.

expectation vs realism

no-one can help you with realism

I can help you open your eyes to our list and where it stands compared to all other clubs - but I cannot make you see. - that's up to you.

[P-man 13,239]

sorry mate it is you that is exhibiting naivety by implying in any way that our performance on Saturday was even close to acceptable or that our opponent on the day was any good whatsoever

it's not negativity for the sake of it, it is the facts of the matter

a top side on their a-game would have done us by 100 on Saturday, no doubt about it

I don't buy into shoulda wouldas. The final margin was 8 points. Both sides were wayward with their chances .

It wasn't an acceptable performance, and I was filthy for the large part, but the fact that 90% of the team didn't play well yet probably should've won it is inarguably progress. Last year the bundle would have been well and truly dropped in the second half and it would have been a 10+ goal defeat.

WYL is doing his usual routine of sky is falling, hope is lost, nothing is gained. Side with that if you like, by all means. The bloke doesn't even watch the damn games, yet comes on here to spread his doom and gloom afterward. It's pathetic and turning a blind eye to the progress being made, which thankfully most supporters can acknowledge.

I also didn't say GC were any good on the day, I said that calling them "Ablett and a bunch of kids" is idiotic and exhibits extreme naivety about the quality of their team.

Edited April 22, 2014 by P-man

[Sambo06 222]

What did people really expect? Five straight wins to start the year? That's more than double than what we got last year. And it's only 1/4 through the season!

I might note that I said to one of the main offenders in this thread earlier in the year that maybe, just maybe, Roos and Jackson might actually fail in the task they were given. I was reassured that they were dead certainties to succeed. Now that things are progressing as expected (or at least at a rate that most learned experts would consider normal), we need to roast the club and all within it. Do we really want to become Richmond of the mid to late 80's? Where everyone gets hauled over the coals based on a result that could have gone either way?

I once said, in a post a very long time ago about what would happen if we actually started winning, that people would whinge about how they don't just want finals, they WANT A FLAG (and how anything besides that would be considered failure)! I noted that these same people would not understand that you don't get from point A to point C without going through point B first. Some of the comments in this thread are pretty indicative of this. We aren't just going to become Geelong or Hawthorn over night. Look back at those two teams in 2002/2003 and 2005 respectively. They started from a low point as well you know.

I would agree with a lot of you that last year was completely unacceptable. I tried to be measured at a certain point last year but when you weighed things up, it was hard not to be completely down on things. Games were over by half time and in some cases, quarter time. Leaving the football absolutely disgusted was commonplace. Of all the games I have watched this year, there has only been one game where I got to the last quarter and we weren't a decent shot for the win (WCE). Let's compare that to round 5 last year. Three straight pantsings (the less said the better), a sluggish effort against GWS where a last quarter burst put us over what WAS a bunch of kids (as opposed to the Suns who are now in their fourth season) and a game against Brisbane where we weren't humiliated on the scoreboard but were run over the top of after half time. Losing should never be acceptable. Let's make that clear. However, losing is only a complete waste of time if you don't learn anything from it. It would appear from the rejigged forward line, our pressure shown in the Carlton game and our improved defence (I believe we average 112 points conceded last year vs. 73 this year) that we have learnt certain things. Losing is not the end we are aiming for. However, to say we can't take anything from a game we have lost is ridiculous.

Whether anyone likes it or not, we (as has been pointed out) are coming from 2 wins and a percentage of 50%. Bring up bad drafting, bring up bad development or bring up bad administration and coaching if you like. You can complain about how this is the rebuilding of a rebuild's rebuild. That's all inconsequential. We are at where we are at. A lot of these arguments are based on false premises in that we actually are a good team. We may have the potential to become good some day but let me remind you: WE ARE NOT A GOOD TEAM. Effort may let us down at times and we will have lapses but this happens to developing teams.

Most of us withdrew our support for the Neeld rebuilding plan as there appeared to be no upside at all one and a half years in and plenty of regression. A lot of us felt that the playing list needed to be whacked with a big stick but how wrong were we? Now, some of us suggest we go down that path again.

We just now need to be patient and see how the current plan goes.

Cue comments about 'I've been waiting 50 years!!!'

Probably the best post I've ever read on this forum. Realism and expectation of improvement. Knowing where we are at as a Club. It takes time (yeah i know too, been waiting 50 years! LOL!).VERY WELL WRITTEN COLIN!!!!

Only one thing though, the blokes your aiming this at wouldn't understand most of it. Well constructed argument/debate like this will be ignored by them. We all know who they are.

[demon3165 2,006]

I don't buy into shoulda wouldas. The final margin was 8 points. Both sides were wayward with their chances .

It wasn't an acceptable performance, and I was filthy for the large part, but the fact that 90% of the team didn't play well yet probably should've won it is inarguably progress. Last year the bundle would have been well and truly dropped in the second half and it would have been a 10+ goal defeat.

WYL is doing his usual routine of sky is falling, hope is lost, nothing is gained. Side with that if you like, by all means. The bloke doesn't even watch the damn games, yet comes on here to spread his doom and gloom afterward. It's pathetic and turning a blind eye to the progress being made, which thankfully most supporters can acknowledge.

I also didn't say GC were any good on the day, I said that calling them "Ablett and a bunch of kids" is idiotic and exhibits extreme naivety about the quality of their team.

WYL = Drama Queen!! enough said.

[Sambo06 222]

WYL = Drama Queen!! enough said.

LOL!

[Guest]

Well constructed argument/debate like this will be ignored by them. We all know who they are.

Thanks Sambo.

Why rely on argument and analysis when you can just repeat the same old catchphrases over and over again?

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

90% of the team didn't play well yet probably should've won it is inarguably progress.

How can you call something 'progress' and in the same sentence concede that '90% of the team didn't play well' ? Isn't that the epitome of contradiction? What is it a progression from? 95% of the team not playing well?

90% of them not playing well is precisely the problem!

[daisycutter 28,636]

You made my day!! Hahaha!! Keep up the good work!!

Tsk, tsk...............!!!!!!!!

[nutbean 8,837]

How can you call something 'progress' and in the same sentence concede that '90% of the team didn't play well' ? Isn't that the epitome of contradiction? What is it a progression from? 95% of the team not playing well?

90% of them not playing well is precisely the problem!

You suggest that not playing well is definitive and absolute.

How can you not see the difference between not playing well last year and not playing well this year.

Prime example - I do not think that Pederson played well on Sunday but he pretty much kept at it and having a go - compare this to last year where Pederson did not play well and was a dispirited waste of space on the ground.

We did not do enough of the right things for long enough on Sunday, not enough players played well, yet the team kept plugging away.

At what stage did we "plug away " last year ?

edit - I do not consider Sunday's effort and output acceptable. I do consider that there are improvements on last year -the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Edited April 23, 2014 by nutbean

[P-man 13,239]

How can you call something 'progress' and in the same sentence concede that '90% of the team didn't play well' ? Isn't that the epitome of contradiction? What is it a progression from? 95% of the team not playing well?

90% of them not playing well is precisely the problem!

A few reasons:

1) You can not play well and still be competitive. In the past when the team hasn't played well, they've been blown away regardless of the opposition. We were actually the better team in the second half. How often has a Melbourne side IMPROVED as the game wore on? I can think of a couple of games in all of Neeld's tenure where that was the case. Generally we just progressively got worse.

2) It is not one game in isolation. The week before it was 90% of the team who got a pass mark or better. I am looking at improvements over the 5 rounds. I agree with Steve to the extent that the list needs another turn over, but there are some who just had an off day. T Mac being a prime example.

3) The margin simply can't be dismissed. Even perpetual moaners like WYL say that the score is what matters. 8 points against a side that, like it or not, is seen as a finals contender, is an improvement. If 5 or 6 players lift another gear, we win that game.

Inconsistencies come when you're a crap side. We are still a crap side. But we are now an improving side, which was not the case this time last year.

Edited April 23, 2014 by P-man

[praha 10,308]

Our first 12 games last year lead to 11 losses.

The margins were 79, 148, 94, 28, 61, 60, 34, 90, 95, 83, 35.

We've lost 3 games this year by margins smaller than every single one of those save for one (28).

If you can't see improvement and greater positives in this team at the moment then I reckon the rocks in your head have rocks in their head.

Yay! We're not losing as bad!