Neeld's other legacy

[Carrot Top 947]

Elwood - Roos will escape blame and as he should - we know he can coach.

The players have always been able to hide behind something at this club. Coaches, admin, turmoil - now they have nothing to hide behind.

Very true. For the first time in a very long time they've been given everything they could ask for. It's now up to them. They can be excused the first half of the season as they adapt to new ways of doing things, and as Roos finds out the right team balance for his plans, but by round 16 the questions on development vs bad recruiting vs lack of desire will be answered about many players.

[dpositive 1,662]

That is a lovely sentiment dpos.I will try to remember that the next time I am disemboweling somebody for expressing an opinion I disagree with.

Peace and Goodwill to (nearly) all men.

Dont mind the disemboweling if it is directed at anyone or any thing outside the club

But we are all dee supporters here and should therefore have our abberrent disclosures tempered with the knowledge that we too have endured the extremes that that support has provided. We deserve some consideration for having the courage to put up any opinion given the disdain we have visited upon us by our alignment with the Dees.

When we have success we are of course toffy private school 4 wheel drive ski snobs and we probably cheated

when we fail it was due to the fact that as above we are also weak spoilt and soft

We are a source of enjoyment as we can be mocked under all circumstances

We can only draw solace from the fact that we are among others who have the same unfortunate fate

Oh [censored] getting a bit morbidly philosophical here begin the disemboweling

Happy days

[pitmaster 3,474]

I also think that together with Dave Misson, he has laid the foundation for lifting the team's physical fitness standards, a project both always said would take three pre seasons.

Thanks Jack. I really should have included this point in my opening remarks.

It could be, should be a really telling feature of the group this year.

As others have said, the excuses are running out.

[Slartibartfast 16,937]

I agree with you that an experienced coach would have been an ideal replacement for Bailey, particularly in view of the "bruise-free" allegations, the 186 episode and it's implications but IIRC, uncontracted experienced coaches were pretty thin on the ground. My recollection is that we did make unsuccessful approaches to the managements of Clarkson and Ross Lyon while Collingwood refused to release Malthouse from his contract with them.

Perhaps could have gone with Garry Ayres, the last experienced coach left standing but a number of other clubs could have taken him as well and they chose not to do so which suggests he wasn't really considered a viable option at the time.

That left us with the untried coaches and given Neeld's role in planning the Collingwood heavy press strategy that won it the flag in 2010, I thought he came across as a highly likely candidate.

In the end I think most of us overestimated the quality of the list and none of us could predicted the combination of what was aptly described as "calamities" that the coach and the club faced in his time at the helm. It's easy to say with hindsight that he wasn't up to best standards as a coach but the reality is, as many have pointed out, the list he coached was close to rock bottom standard as well. He might easily have gone on to a successful career elsewhere as Clarkson did at Hawthorn when things fell nicely into place after a similarly rocky start to his career.

I also think that together with Dave Misson, he has laid the foundation for lifting the team's physical fitness standards, a project both always said would take three pre seasons.

Finally, I'm confident that Roos will prove the bookies wrong because he has assembled a much better list, it will be fitter and with some of those better players on the park more regularly, we will surprise.

And yes, Roos is a bloody good coach.

Firstly the coaching selection process. I agree that there weren't numerous experienced coaches available but despite being told of Ross Lyons possible availability we didn't ring him. And whilst we rushed in to secure Neeld we didn't interview Sanderson or HInkley. Hinkley BTW was second by a whisker to Hardwick at Richmond and Schwab and Cameron's friendship is well known. But not a phone call. And with any limited enquiry it was known that Neeld had failed psychological testing at Richmond and PA not making their final cut. But as I've said on many many occasions it wasn't Neeld's fault he was appointed.

And there is no doubt that Neeld ran into some difficult issues in his first season. But it was his decision to sack Ian Flack who had put so much time into Liam Jurrah and understood his circumstances. It was Neeld's decision to let Liam go to Alice Springs to a fraught situation unattended. It was also Neeld's decision to escalate the Misfud situation demanding it be investigated on OTC only to embarrassingly back down 2 days later. And while the loss of Jimmy was upsetting I think that situation was poorly managed by the club. That was not Neeld's doing. But prior to this he had made some poor decisions which alienated Watts and Davey in his first few days, appointed dreadfully inexperienced players as captains and lost the senior players before the season started. The decison to appoint Grimes and Trengove was risky enough but to sack Green as captain and remove him from the leadership group was probably evidence of why he failed the psych testing. It was his job to unite the club but he didn't and the comparison to Roos is profound and enlightening.

I also question the impact of his training regime and the credit some are attributing to it. Roos has changed it significantly this year asking the players to do the running whilst practising drills. If they are short on running at the end of the session they do extra running. And despite Neeld's program we saw no benefits from it on the field, in fact the decline in performance startled all of us. If we succeed and win 8 games this season some will credit Neeld's fitness strategy whilst others will merely say we have returned to the level Bailey achieved in his last two years.

IMO Neeld did some good list management in terms of getting rid of players who were not good enough. He did well to recruit Clark and Dawes but beyond that it's hard to find further positives. The reality is he took a list that had won 17 games in the previous two seasons to one that won 6 in the next two. And whichever way you cut it that is the measurement that represents our Club.

He was a poor coach on any measure and the fact that no other AFL club wanted him after his stint with us compares with Voss, Harvey, Bailey, Craig, Laidley, M Williams, Thomson and Primus. I hold nothing against him personally and wish him well but he was in charge whilst we reached the lowest ebb in our AFL history.

I've only posted this to balance your post Jack and others who are attributing credit to Neeld in areas I disagree with. I know you won't agree with much/all of it but it's the opposing view. I happen to hold it.

[PaulRB 6,305]

The fact that Roos, an experienced successful coach with little to prove, has taken on the role of coach at Melbourne says several things about Neeld's work...

1. the list turnover and fitness work has laid the foundation for the players to compete at the top level in 2014.

2. the bones of the list were within ONE DRAFT and a preseason of significant improvement

3. Dawes and Clark left only the midfield to complete which is the easiest piece...

Roo's is no fool and would not sully his reputation with taking on a 5 year rebuild of an unfit, ill disciplined and mediocre list.

Neeld did that, to Roos will go the spoils.

Smart man.

[tonatopia 278]

Neeld was the biggest mistake this club has made in my lifetime.

He was akin to a bomb, that almost extinguished the spirit of the club.

He sacked good players and recruited spuds.

He could not coach, actually probably one of the worst appointments of all time. This was recognized by Jackson.

He turned our club into a joke, an actual impedament to the league.

What an absolutely disgraceful tenure, of the likes I hope to never witness again.

He was arrogant, delusional and completely in a fantasy land. My god he was terrible.

Neeld is a spud of the highest order. Even his first speech was mildly retarded.

He did not engage with the players, could not deliver messages, did not lead the players on the track, he injected only defensive paralysis.

What an absolute disgraceful period of the MFC. Definetly the lowest point in this clubs history.

Lyon, selecting Bailey and then Neeld, supporters swallowing it all up.

A case of the blind leading the blind. A truly sad situation.

Lucky for the AFL support, if not, our blind supporters and hierarchy would have led us marching over cliff to our doom.

Absolutely incompetant. my god.

Mark Neeld rocked our club to its foundations. He nearly put out my flame, the whole club, especially the hierarchy was delusional. And Neeld had the gaul to blame the players.

Not only was he a fraud, but he was a coward, an arrogant, delusional, dimwitted coward at that.

terrible terrible terrible.

The scars will never leave me. I would be surprised if the players arnt scared for life aswell.

Roos has his work cut out.

[bing181 9,115]

But it was his decision to sack Ian Flack who had put so much time into Liam Jurrah and understood his circumstances.

Given what a snake in the grass Flack turned out to be with his destructive role in both the Mifsud and Tanking affairs, I'd be marking his dismissal down as a positive on the Neeld scorecard.

Suggest you're being selective and/or somewhat disingenuous with some of your other points as well.

For mine, WJ did a good job of presenting the for/against Neeld arguments.

[Moonshadow 17,577]

Neeld was the....

Had a few drinks tonatopia?

[PaulRB 6,305]

If we have any success in the 2-3 years Roos has promised us,

Neeld will have to be acknowledged for laying part of the foundations.

[tonatopia 278]

If we have any success in the 2-3 years Roos has promised us,

Neeld will have to be acknowledged for laying part of the foundations.

acknoledged as the man who led us to rock bottom.

who broke our foundation

who led us to our biggest defeat at home

who had a terrible game plan, absolutlely pathetic.

who blamed everyone but himself

who recruited duds

who made us a charity case.

yes, he must be ackowledged.

i bet you he is one person that will never show his face around mfc again.

let it go paulrb. your just making yourself look foolish

[Hannibal 5,814]

Neeld will have to be acknowledged for laying part of the foundations.

P1sstake.

[Apocalypse XXXI 243]

acknoledged as the man who led us to rock bottom.

who broke our foundation

who led us to our biggest defeat at home

who had a terrible game plan, absolutlely pathetic.

who blamed everyone but himself

who recruited duds

who made us a charity case.

yes, he must be ackowledged.

i bet you he is one person that will never show his face around mfc again.

let it go paulrb. your just making yourself look foolish

Rock bottom was 186 - that must be acknowledged and came before Neeld.

Prendergast destroyed us by recruiting duds before Neeld.

Show me a quote where Neeld blamed others than himself for all that happened under his watch.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Apocalypse XXXI

[DemonFrog 1,347]

Neeld was the biggest mistake this club has made in my lifetime.

He was akin to a bomb, that almost extinguished the spirit of the club.

He sacked good players and recruited spuds.

He could not coach, actually probably one of the worst appointments of all time. This was recognized by Jackson.

He turned our club into a joke, an actual impedament to the league.

What an absolutely disgraceful tenure, of the likes I hope to never witness again.

He was arrogant, delusional and completely in a fantasy land. My god he was terrible.

Neeld is a spud of the highest order. Even his first speech was mildly retarded.

He did not engage with the players, could not deliver messages, did not lead the players on the track, he injected only defensive paralysis.

What an absolute disgraceful period of the MFC. Definetly the lowest point in this clubs history.

Lyon, selecting Bailey and then Neeld, supporters swallowing it all up.

A case of the blind leading the blind. A truly sad situation.

Lucky for the AFL support, if not, our blind supporters and hierarchy would have led us marching over cliff to our doom.

Absolutely incompetant. my god.

Mark Neeld rocked our club to its foundations. He nearly put out my flame, the whole club, especially the hierarchy was delusional. And Neeld had the gaul to blame the players.

Not only was he a fraud, but he was a coward, an arrogant, delusional, dimwitted coward at that.

terrible terrible terrible.

The scars will never leave me. I would be surprised if the players arnt scared for life aswell.

Roos has his work cut out.

LIKE x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Xmas wish is all the Mark Neeld Fan Boys move on in 2014. The guys caused a massive train wreck for the MFC. He took a 8.5 win team (2011) and turned it into a 2 win team (2013). No more needs to be said.

[Whispering_Jack 29,332]

Thanks for your insights and opinions Bob. It's easy for the naysayers to make glib comments about servants of the club who they dislike and do so without anything that resembles analysis but you do back up your arguments with thought and fact which is more than I can say for some of the tripe we get from some posters in these parts.

Clearly, we agree on some things and differ on others and without going into detail (because that would cover ground I've covered before), our main point of difference is that you miss the fact that the list Neeld inherited was not a blank canvas upon which he could set out to work but rather, it was a complete disaster waiting to happen, the culmination of years of poor coaching, recruitment and list development, tainted by the bruise-free allegations, 186, poor leadership and lazy attitudes to training developed over time and a below standard midfield totally unprepared for the changing landscape of the hard press where it was important for players to be able to run both ways and defend strongly. Neeld was responsible for none of which came before him, nor all the calamities that confronted him when he took over.

You constantly raise the fact that the team won 8½ games in each of Bailey's final two seasons but omit the fact that by the time Neeld took over, that wasn't going to be repeated without major repair work and a different mindset among the playing group. Many of the team's key performers 2011/12 were already in decline before Neeld came on board. Jamar and dropped form and had fitness issues, Green was on his last legs, Wona was gone, the Flash hobbled, Moloney had already declared he wanted out at the end of 2011 and was useless, Rivers was lost after a monstering by Cloke on an earlier Queens Birthday and Sylvia suffered a bad back injury in the final practice match. Jurrah, the previous year's top goalkicker had been crucial under Bailey but was finished off by that trip home to Alice Springs.

That brings me to your revelations about Ian Flack which encompass a part of the Neeld term that has never fully been explored and about which I believe a great deal more will come out in the fullness of time. Some points:-

► I wasn't aware that it was Neeld's decision to sack Flack but if this was the case, then it explains many things to me. I always thought that to be a decision made by the Board or the CEO and not the coach. Do you know why Flack got the flick?

► I also didn't know it was Neeld who let Jurrah go to Alice Springs or in what context a request was made by Jurrah to go there. I had previously been under the impression that Jurrah, who was in rehab at the time, simply left of his own accord without needing permission. After all, it was his home and where his family lived.

► I don't believe Jurrah had previously been required to have supervision when going back home. He had always been painted by others including his biographer as a responsible elder among his community. Did Neeld have reason to suspect that Jurrah was going to head off and get involved in a drunken machete fight? I'm sure you're not suggesting that.

► in any event, I think its a stretch to suggest that Neeld was somehow to blame for the unforeseen loss of a player for the reasons you gave. There might well be underlying reasons for Jurrah to have behaved the way he did, but ultimately he was responsible for his own actions.

Then there's Flack's role in the Mufsud/Davey controversy which many consider to be the AFL cover up of 2012. I've heard Mark Robinson allude to this more than once and your revelations are interesting and raise some more questions.

► again you seem to blame the victim by saying that it was "Neeld's decision to escalate the Misfud situation demanding it be investigated". A rookie coach is falsely blamed of being a racist weeks into a new job in which he's working with indigenous players and there's something wrong with demanding it be investigated? That's ridiculous - but no more so than the way the AFL handled the affair so that it had to be stifled and shut out from public scrutiny leaving many threads unsatisfactorily hanging over the heads of the parties involved.

► it was reported at the time that the MFC believed their former employee Flack instigated the affair. Flack denied it but according to a report from Caroline Wilson, Flack did meet Mifsud at about the time this story would have been in germination -

Ian Flack, the former player welfare manager, was one casualty, although he assured The Age last night he had not been the source. However, he confirmed he had met with Mifsud eight weeks ago.

- Circle of Trust may claim Mifsud.

Wilson knows a lot more about this saga which, because of Flack's involvement in the so-called "Vault" revelations spills into the tanking controversy which also played a major part in destabilising the club and Neeld's term as coach.

I think for the sake of history, the whole affair of Flack's involvement in two major controversies that wracked the club must and will ultimately be the subject of close examination. Many of the major players are gone; much of the Board, the CEO, Neeld, Jurrah and Davey are no longer at the club; Grant Thomas left Footy Classified at the end of 2012, Demetriou is on his last legs at the AFL IMO and I don't know about Mifsud but he's not popular with many in the indigenous community.

As Michael Long once said: ''If you think black-and-white politics is tough, try black-and-black politics.''

I believe that Neeld was a victim of all of the above and more.

That is not to say that he was a saint or a great coach but in the end, his task to improve the team, to harden them physically and mentally was a task which ultimately proved beyond him but in all the circumstances was too monumental to achieve in a short space of time.

[Dees2014 2,377]

So how do you think he's gone so far?

Good relationship with AFL.

Attracted Roos.

We have a new major sponsor.

We seem to have some respect in the footy world although I know this is hard to measure.

We have record membership for this time of year.

We have a silent Board.

I (we) have more genuine hope for success than I've had for a decade.

We are tracking for break even financially after a disastrous year and with no budgeted input for the foundation heroes.

Negotiated a survival funding package from AFL.

I'm struggling for negatives but you may be able to find some. I don't know his detailed history at Essendon but in his time they won premierships and became a financial powerhouse. I'd settle for that.

Good post - agree with 100% of the above. What I don't agree with is giving Essendon any credibility at all, which some on here appear to do.

I find it impossible to understand why anyone on here would give anyone at Essendon any credence whatsoever. They are the greatest lot of delusional whankers on this planet, who worship their own self-obssessed god/king and exclude any reason whatsoever. It is almost cult-like in its myopia.

If PJ is criticized by that lot then he and we must be on the right track. The PJ/PR duo look like a winning team to me, and we have not been able to say that for a very very long time.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Dees2014

[monoccular 17,345]

3184 you are almost saying on this thread that you want Roos to fail...almost.

Jump on board mate. What this club does need is positive energy from members and supporters.

The club has got to believe it can play in september before it will start to rise.

Neeld was in survival mode, maybe he had no choice. But it didn't work.

Do not underestimate PJ as a CEO. His appointment of Knights had much merit just ask anyone down at the Cattery

Essendon didn't want him. They chose the blonde psychopath instead.

Look at the result.

Great lines !! "LIKE"

Didn't Knights take the bombers to the finals in his 2nd season? They love him at the Geelong VFL team. Took them to a VFL flag in 2012. Tough to make it work at Bomberland when you are an outsider.

Any truth to the rumour that Essendon are moving their offices down Mt Alexander Rd into the Scientology HQ? ;)

More great lines. "LIKE"

Knights was never going to be allowed to succeed once "the blonde psychopath" decided he wanted out of the media and into the job, and Knights was white anted.

[pitmaster 3,474]

Hey Elwood, I am supposed to be a one eyed supporter of the Cub no matter what, I heard the same opinion of Jackson from at least 5 or 6 died in the wool Bombers fans, but haven't mentioned it, I always prefer to wait and see...............and Dazzle, sorry I tend to skip your posts, reread one of the early ones, can't I have an opinion on Hogan, you seem to have

Are your Bomber critics critical of Jackson for moving on Sheedy?

Because I was hearing for years from Bomber fans in the late '80s what a shocker Sheedy was in terms of under-performing with what was a very powerful list.

You can always find someone bagging the coach. Four flags - '84-5, '93 and 2000. It's not Norm Smith but I'd cop it.

Then Jackson knocks him off - but long before that I was hearing lurid stories about Sheedy's conduct at training. Maybe it was time.

Bomber members' worship of Hird shows how useful their assessments are.

Edited December 22, 2013 by pitmaster

[Slartibartfast 16,937]

Thanks for your insights and opinions Bob.

Presenting a case and using examples is always difficult because instead of debating the core issue you get sidetracked with the examples. Flack is a perfect example. Suffice to say MFC ignored the old adage of "keeping your friends close and your enemies closer". If Flack had been treated with more care and respect and seen his friends treated better he may never have said a word. He was poorly managed and is an example of why a fish rots from the top.

And whilst you say Neeld inherited an ageing set of senior players (and I agree) that begs the question of his treatment of them and the resulting impact on their performance. We all have a view.

All that is of course down to opinions.

I feel for Mark Neeld. I've never met him nor do I know him as a person but he seems to have been promoted well above his capabilities and into a difficult situation at best. I reckon Malthouse sold us up the river. He knew that Neeld, who he clearly liked, had tried and failed to get a number of senior coaching positions and when asked gave him a glowing endorsement in an effort to help him. Not his fault, not Neelds fault, but our fault. MN was a mistake but sadly he was a mistake easily avoided and that would have been to everyone's benefit including Mark's.

In the end you have to look at his tenure and say "on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is very poor and 10 is very good where do you score his performance as a coach of the MFC".

I score him a 1. Where do you score him?

[dazzledavey36 53,265]

Cmon you blokes upstairs, bring back the LIKE button!

[Sir Why You Little 36,737]

Presenting a case and using examples is always difficult because instead of debating the core issue you get sidetracked with the examples. Flack is a perfect example. Suffice to say MFC ignored the old adage of "keeping your friends close and your enemies closer". If Flack had been treated with more care and respect and seen his friends treated better he may never have said a word. He was poorly managed and is an example of why a fish rots from the top.

And whilst you say Neeld inherited an ageing set of senior players (and I agree) that begs the question of his treatment of them and the resulting impact on their performance. We all have a view.

All that is of course down to opinions.

I feel for Mark Neeld. I've never met him nor do I know him as a person but he seems to have been promoted well above his capabilities and into a difficult situation at best. I reckon Malthouse sold us up the river. He knew that Neeld, who he clearly liked, had tried and failed to get a number of senior coaching positions and when asked gave him a glowing endorsement in an effort to help him. Not his fault, not Neelds fault, but our fault. MN was a mistake but sadly he was a mistake easily avoided and that would have been to everyone's benefit including Mark's.

In the end you have to look at his tenure and say "on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is very poor and 10 is very good where do you score his performance as a coach of the MFC".

I score him a 1. Where do you score him?

This sums up the Neeld situation for me.

I do also agree with what WJ is saying. Both POV's have merit.

Flack talked because he was left in the cold.

Bailey spoke about Tanking because he was sitting by himself saying his goodbyes.

We must learn from all this and never return to it.

Employees deserve more respect.

[praha 11,218]

I'm happy to acknowledge Neeld's contribution to building our list with potential talent, but as far as coaching goes he clearly lost the plot from very, very early on. IMO How the team performs next season will determine Neeld's most lasting legacy: either he tried his best but the will of the club's ineptness eventually took over, or he was just a really, really bad coach.

[Hannibal 5,814]

It's virtually impossible for a coach to spend 18 months at a club and not do a few positive things, but when history fully evaluates Neeld's overall impact at the club I suspect he'll be rated as one of the greatest disasters in AFL history.

As Baghdad eloquently points out, he can't be held totally responsible for all of the disasters during his tenure. There were many issues teetering on the precipice not of his doing. And Neeld had the perfect combustible personality and man management skills to ignite the fuel laying all around him. Talk about the perfect storm.

[The Reverend 1,736]

Who cares? Bring on 2014!

[Hannibal 5,814]

Who cares? Bring on 2014!

Who cares about what ?

[Satyriconhome 10,395]

Are your Bomber critics critical of Jackson for moving on Sheedy?

Because I was hearing for years from Bomber fans in the late '80s what a shocker Sheedy was in terms of under-performing with what was a very powerful list.

You can always find someone bagging the coach. Four flags - '84-5, '93 and 2000. It's not Norm Smith but I'd cop it.

Then Jackson knocks him off - but long before that I was hearing lurid stories about Sheedy's conduct at training. Maybe it was time.

Bomber members' worship of Hird shows how useful their assessments are.

It was more along the lines of he is not the Messiah that the MFC supporters are painting him as, same as Roos, they didn't seem to like what he did in his last couple of years there, never really paid much attention to Bombers so I don't know what other skeletons are there (perceived)

As I have stated before I will support whoever the incumbent person is