Training - Friday, 13th December, 2013

[Slartibartfast 17,190]

And you posted here about their (anonymous) views at the time?

No, so?

[Whispering_Jack 29,800]

Neeld might have had his failings as a coach but in my view they were related to things other than the fitness programmes that he undertook. His issues were more with the tough attitude to some players when one on one (some of it probably justified although poorly executed) and his match day coaching.

Bob might have heard some scuttlebutt from anonymous opposition FD people but I have heard differently from others including some of our players. We must have had around 30 training threads from last year's pre season on Demonland and if the group was being flogged too hard we would have heard it at the time. I recall even hearing Denham on SEN commenting (grudgingly perhaps) that Neeld was correctly training the players harder than they were under Bailey and how necessary it was to break the bruise-free mindset of some players. Neeld and Misson explained more than once that they were trying to bring the players up to the standards of the leading teams like Collingwood. The process was a stepped one going from 60% in 2011/12 to 80% in 2012/13 and then 100% now. I also heard this praised in the media at the time for being safer with young players compared to The Weapon's program at Essendon (before that went totally pear shaped).

It's true that the coach takes ownership and responsibility for the programme but the fact that Roos has persevered with Misson suggests that Roos doesn't see the physical training adopted in the past two preseasons as a problem.

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now and the views of a few anonymous FD people from other clubs don't interest me.

I'm more concerned about what Roos and Misson do going forward and I have confidence in them both notwithstanding Misson's involvement in the previous fitness regime.

[Satyriconhome 10,728]

Sorry been busy with life (one of the many who has been told, "you have done a great job, but you won't have it in the New year")

Anyway back on topic, the player who made the adults comment knows full well I am on Twitter and post on Demonland, so perhaps it was deliberate knowing I would post it, as WJ said the approach last year was needed but ultimately it didn't work

Everybody knows it's preseason and they all tend to look the same, but it is the stuff away from the open sessions that we don't see that makes the difference, we won't see the results of that until the NAB Cup and the first few games. One observation I will make is we seem to be more of a team this year

I appreciate the comments about me talking to players, I think they trust me, knowing I don't bag, I do get told quite a few things, but I think they know I keep a lot to myself

[Machsy 2,858]

Obviously for a start anyone can look good at training but the issue for me is that even if Melbourne have improved, the other teams have improved that much more.

I have never agreed with this train of thought.

It's not possible to just keep improving every year to a level greater than the previous one.

As much as Hawthorn's youngsters will improve, being Hill, Smith, Gunston et al, they have also lost Franklin, Guerra, and Savage, and Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell and Burgoyne are all a year older and slower.

It's important for these teams to focus on improving the areas that they can, but they can't keep getting better overall each year.

There is a range that they remain within.

And improvement from their current position requires much more effort than it does at the lower end of the scale, where we reside.

As a result, even if they are getting better, we are able to increase our overall ability by more, and therefore close the gap, easier.

[Machsy 2,858]

I think the Neeld training methods were done with what I thought were sound justifications at the time, but in retrospect they weren't.

Things such as floggging the players on the track before working on skills, because the players needed to be able to execute skills in a match when they were buggered.

That made sense to me, and it's a method that was used by my coach as a teenager, that paid off.

But we weren't a side with an already fragile psyche that needed to build confidence.

We also already had a good fitness base to begin with, and only did this training every few sessions.

I can now see how that method had a detrimental effect psychologically.

[timD 994]

Neeld might have had his failings as a coach but in my view they were related to things other than the fitness programmes that he undertook. His issues were more with the tough attitude to some players when one on one (some of it probably justified although poorly executed) and his match day coaching.

Bob might have heard some scuttlebutt from anonymous opposition FD people but I have heard differently from others including some of our players. We must have had around 30 training threads from last year's pre season on Demonland and if the group was being flogged too hard we would have heard it at the time. I recall even hearing Denham on SEN commenting (grudgingly perhaps) that Neeld was correctly training the players harder than they were under Bailey and how necessary it was to break the bruise-free mindset of some players. Neeld and Misson explained more than once that they were trying to bring the players up to the standards of the leading teams like Collingwood. The process was a stepped one going from 60% in 2011/12 to 80% in 2012/13 and then 100% now. I also heard this praised in the media at the time for being safer with young players compared to The Weapon's program at Essendon (before that went totally pear shaped).

It's true that the coach takes ownership and responsibility for the programme but the fact that Roos has persevered with Misson suggests that Roos doesn't see the physical training adopted in the past two preseasons as a problem.

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now and the views of a few anonymous FD people from other clubs don't interest me.

I'm more concerned about what Roos and Misson do going forward and I have confidence in them both notwithstanding Misson's involvement in the previous fitness regime.

That are that many logical failings here I feel utterly overwhelmed. Roos keeps Misson but completely changes how training look and you think it is an endorsement of previous methods? I'd excuse that were you drunk but I know you abstain. I'm baffled as to how you take 1+1 and get 37.Seriously, how does totally different = no problem with the past?

Who the hell is greg denham as a judge? What do posters know about physical condition and training elite athletes. and how can they evaluate a program they know almost nothing about?

How does thrashing players on a track make them more willing to get hit? There is no physical risk that you must tolerate without time to predict in running until you spew. You know that, too. Why post this inconsistent guff? Seriously, wtf?

And the views of the anonymous few! Some time ago you trumpeted that the "shadow conspiracy" would be outed - this fed to you by an 'anonymous few'. What respect should anyone have for that now, Jack? By your standards? Are your anonymous few somehow different? Can you tell me the quality of the anonymous few? Should I trust you? Why the hell should I do that, given your track record of big promise and total failure to deliver? It's over 12 months and I'm still waiting for these revelations.

This "nothing to see here; it's all fine" routine is starting to annoy me. It lacks intellectual rigor and stinks of an agenda - but I'm buggered what agenda you have. Regardless, this sort of defending-the-past sleight of hand is wearing thin.

[Hannibal 5,814]

That are that many logical failings here I feel utterly overwhelmed. Roos keeps Misson but completely changes how training look and you think it is an endorsement of previous methods? I'd excuse that were you drunk but I know you abstain. I'm baffled as to how you take 1+1 and get 37.Seriously, how does totally different = no problem with the past?

Who the hell is greg denham as a judge? What do posters know about physical condition and training elite athletes. and how can they evaluate a program they know almost nothing about?

How does thrashing players on a track make them more willing to get hit? There is no physical risk that you must tolerate without time to predict in running until you spew. You know that, too. Why post this inconsistent guff? Seriously, wtf?

And the views of the anonymous few! Some time ago you trumpeted that the "shadow conspiracy" would be outed - this fed to you by an 'anonymous few'. What respect should anyone have for that now, Jack? By your standards? Are your anonymous few somehow different? Can you tell me the quality of the anonymous few? Should I trust you? Why the hell should I do that, given your track record of big promise and total failure to deliver? It's over 12 months and I'm still waiting for these revelations.

This "nothing to see here; it's all fine" routine is starting to annoy me. It lacks intellectual rigor and stinks of an agenda - but I'm buggered what agenda you have. Regardless, this sort of defending-the-past sleight of hand is wearing thin.

^^

This guy doesn't "abstain".

[Blistering 538]

^^

This guy doesn't "abstain".

A Bex and a good lie down would be helpful.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

That are that many logical failings here I feel utterly overwhelmed. Roos keeps Misson but completely changes how training look and you think it is an endorsement of previous methods? I'd excuse that were you drunk but I know you abstain. I'm baffled as to how you take 1+1 and get 37.Seriously, how does totally different = no problem with the past?

Who the hell is greg denham as a judge? What do posters know about physical condition and training elite athletes. and how can they evaluate a program they know almost nothing about?

How does thrashing players on a track make them more willing to get hit? There is no physical risk that you must tolerate without time to predict in running until you spew. You know that, too. Why post this inconsistent guff? Seriously, wtf?

And the views of the anonymous few! Some time ago you trumpeted that the "shadow conspiracy" would be outed - this fed to you by an 'anonymous few'. What respect should anyone have for that now, Jack? By your standards? Are your anonymous few somehow different? Can you tell me the quality of the anonymous few? Should I trust you? Why the hell should I do that, given your track record of big promise and total failure to deliver? It's over 12 months and I'm still waiting for these revelations.

This "nothing to see here; it's all fine" routine is starting to annoy me. It lacks intellectual rigor and stinks of an agenda - but I'm buggered what agenda you have. Regardless, this sort of defending-the-past sleight of hand is wearing thin.

That post is both nasty and personal, you should e ashamed of yourself.

If you have a problem with Jack send him a PM and that way you won't look like such a public dick.

[dazzledavey36 54,283]

Like ^^^^

[DemonOX 8,783]

Did u guys c Neelds presser?

The dude had serious control issues and is never wrong. He would have given a directive to misson to train the players like never before.

It was all on Neeld hence why his approach has failed miserably.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

That are that many logical failings here I feel utterly overwhelmed. Roos keeps Misson but completely changes how training look and you think it is an endorsement of previous methods? I'd excuse that were you drunk but I know you abstain. I'm baffled as to how you take 1+1 and get 37.Seriously, how does totally different = no problem with the past?

Who the hell is greg denham as a judge? What do posters know about physical condition and training elite athletes. and how can they evaluate a program they know almost nothing about?

How does thrashing players on a track make them more willing to get hit? There is no physical risk that you must tolerate without time to predict in running until you spew. You know that, too. Why post this inconsistent guff? Seriously, wtf?

And the views of the anonymous few! Some time ago you trumpeted that the "shadow conspiracy" would be outed - this fed to you by an 'anonymous few'. What respect should anyone have for that now, Jack? By your standards? Are your anonymous few somehow different? Can you tell me the quality of the anonymous few? Should I trust you? Why the hell should I do that, given your track record of big promise and total failure to deliver? It's over 12 months and I'm still waiting for these revelations.

This "nothing to see here; it's all fine" routine is starting to annoy me. It lacks intellectual rigor and stinks of an agenda - but I'm buggered what agenda you have. Regardless, this sort of defending-the-past sleight of hand is wearing thin.

Clearly a failure to read or comprehend.

I agree with WJ that Neeld's failures as a coach were great and his failure to manage and communicate would have also been apparent at training and would likely contribute to poor training performance.

Keeping Mission on is at least an endorsement that his management and plans are supported by the new regime.

[Left Field 313]

Clearly a failure to read or comprehend.

I agree with WJ that Neeld's failures as a coach were great and his failure to manage and communicate would have also been apparent at training and would likely contribute to poor training performance.

Keeping Mission on is at least an endorsement that his management and plans are supported by the new regime.

Or that he was contracted and/or there were no candidates considered better options.

Blaming the "former management" (or government) only gives the new people one chance to reform and reshape. Especially, I imagine, when the AFL's paying the bill.

[DemonDave 1,089]

Saw about half the team at a pub in Richmond Friday night, it was only early around 7PM, having a dinner and a beer together. I assume therefore they have weekends off at this stage of the year?

[dazzledavey36 54,283]

Saw about half the team at a pub in Richmond Friday night, it was only early around 7PM, having a dinner and a beer together. I assume therefore they have weekends off at this stage of the year?

Yes they do. But most of them are still training whether its going to the gym or extra running.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,024]

Two things to date. J.Hogan & P.Roos.

Thanks to the galah that was in charge for the last two years, we have been put back about 3 yrs. The Phar Lap up the sand dunes method all but killed them. Tommy Woodcock has stepped in to retify the situation. It's going to take a while to wipe the slate clean and install a game plan that works. Then hone it from there. The NAB Cup might be seen as a glorified practice match for the stronger clubs, but when you are lost and coming as far back as we, are its going to be a good indicator. Until those pass I'm on the fence.

Good reports from those that took the time and effort to post their views. Getting the footballs out so early as opposed to last year, means we are already in front.

"The Galah" got the players fit enough that Roos can now afford to train them properly. We repeatedly heard from players leaving the club during the Bailey/Neeld years that the teams they went to train a lot harder than us, yet still we have supporters claiming that Neeld over-trained or "flogged" the players. The reality is that he put in place the fitness base that Roos is now enjoying. Do you think for a second that Roos could have taken over the team three years ago and started up in the fashion he has now? How do you think the unfit list we had then would work with his mantra of constantly running on and providing another option? Say what you like about Neeld's inability to manage or bond with the players, but he was right on the money about the lack of fitness and poor training at the club. This fact has been verified repeatedly, and if he ran them into the ground he did so in an effort to remedy that situation.

[DeeSpencer 25,475]

"The Galah" got the players fit enough that Roos can now afford to train them properly. We repeatedly heard from players leaving the club during the Bailey/Neeld years that the teams they went to train a lot harder than us, yet still we have supporters claiming that Neeld over-trained or "flogged" the players. The reality is that he put in place the fitness base that Roos is now enjoying. Do you think for a second that Roos could have taken over the team three years ago and started up in the fashion he has now? How do you think the unfit list we had then would work with his mantra of constantly running on and providing another option? Say what you like about Neeld's inability to manage or bond with the players, but he was right on the money about the lack of fitness and poor training at the club. This fact has been verified repeatedly, and if he ran them into the ground he did so in an effort to remedy that situation.

Certainly Neeld needed to get the fitness based up immensely (Misson noted this when he arrived) and the quality of training to improve as well.

My question is why couldn't the fitness base be improved by running in drills. Misson and his crew have the players hooked up by GPS with almost a dozen staff on hand to monitor the work loads in any one session. It's an impressive set up for those who haven't been to a training session. So why for 2 years did our players do endless 300 or 400m runs to boost fitness? I find it hard to believe things were so bad that we had to do basic running instead of in drill running.

i wonder if that was Neeld's call as a display of flogging and mentally toughening the players. Or whether Misson simply devised the easiest way to get fitness in to the group and Neeld approved it. It's basic human nature that when given the choice of plotting out basic interval runs around and oval compared to monitoring running across drills that the fitness guys will go with the former, but it's wrong.

I did at the time and maintain it now that Neeld had a fundamental problem with the way he conducted training sessions out on the ground. He was incredibly passive and distant. Often just sitting out to the side and brooding. In comparison to Neil Craig and Paul Roos it's a stark difference. They delegate to the appropriate staff but they are also in full control. They know when and why to stop a drill. Which players to ride on with the stick and who to give the carrot too or have a quiet word with. Considering that's also a great strength of Malthouse I'm not sure why Neeld didn't pick it up.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Not having a go Redleg but, as much as I enjoy reading them, I get a sense of déjà vu with many preseason training reports (in your case I've heard the same for 40 years with only the names and faces changed).

Is there something that those who have been to training can point to that will inspire me with confidence that the optimism expressed here about training is going to last for a single day beyond the first NAB Cup game?

As I already stated, there is a noticeable difference in the amount of ball use and the amount of physical intensity in the training as compared to this time of year in previous seasons. What that might actually translate into is anyone's guess but at least it is a change! Given we have been a basketcase for 7 years I will take any change!

[Whispering_Jack 29,800]

As I already stated, there is a noticeable difference in the amount of ball use and the amount of physical intensity in the training as compared to this time of year in previous seasons. What that might actually translate into is anyone's guess but at least it is a change! Given we have been a basketcase for 7 years I will take any change!

No argument from me on that C & B but, after 7 years of mainly rubbish football from this club (preceded by a roller coaster few years before that), I think most of us are looking for something more concrete than optimistic reports of hope and the usual rose coloured glasses attitudes held by many. I'm still in the optimist camp but I've seen enough false dawns and messiahs to make me very wary at this time of the year.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Saw about half the team at a pub in Richmond Friday night, it was only early around 7PM, having a dinner and a beer together. I assume therefore they have weekends off at this stage of the year?

Whilst not a training report, this is certainly a very good report to hear.

Neeld seemed to want every player to be a robot, and seemed to lose sight of the fact that it's a footy club.

It's good to hear that the players are out having a steak and a beer together, presumably after an intense week of training.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

The magnets seem better aligned this pre season.

In all facets, from the approach to list management/recruiting to the approach to training and education/development.

[Moonshadow 17,675]

Or that he was contracted and/or there were no candidates considered better options.

Blaming the "former management" (or government) only gives the new people one chance to reform and reshape. Especially, I imagine, when the AFL's paying the bill.

LF didn't Butterfant just part ways with the Pies? He would have been a good candidate. I'm not unhappy with Misson though.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I did at the time and maintain it now that Neeld had a fundamental problem with the way he conducted training sessions out on the ground. He was incredibly passive and distant. Often just sitting out to the side and brooding. In comparison to Neil Craig and Paul Roos it's a stark difference. They delegate to the appropriate staff but they are also in full control. They know when and why to stop a drill. Which players to ride on with the stick and who to give the carrot too or have a quiet word with. Considering that's also a great strength of Malthouse I'm not sure why Neeld didn't pick it up.

There's no doubt about this, even though, Whispering Death (not Jack) refuted this a while back. The difference between the two is immense. Neale Daniher was very hands on at training, but Roos takes it up a notch from Neale.

Other regulars are welcome to challenge my view, but the players did more running last year under Neeld. They torched them before they kicked a ball. This year they do their repeat sprints and distance running after skills. But, importantly, they do far more running at top speed during their training. They're establishing a strong base during their skills session and topping up on completion.

Misson had a great reputation from his days at the Saints and Swans. He would have told Neeld how far behind they were in fitness and designed running programs. As to who mapped out the specifics around the running sessions one assumes it would have been Neeld. But as we all know this is only part of it. Most of the group didn't want to play for Neeld and certainly didn't want to push through barriers for him. Confidence, belief and enjoyment are wondrous things. The mind is the single most important element in human beings performing to their optimum level. Roos naturally encourages people to be their best and initiates the right environment. Neeld didn't and perhaps couldn't.

I don't think it's a matter of Roos following on or endorsing anything from Neeld, more-so being briefed by Misson as to where the group is at and recognising the mistakes that were made in their previous training programs.

[Elwood 3184 1,298]

Point well made BH. Whatever the training regimen it was that the players were undergoing it wasn't so much the physical nature of the work the players were doing that brought Neeld unstuck, it was his failure to get the entire group behind him. This was mainly his fault but no doubt depended on the brief given from up above and also, he was initiated in turbulent times with many well documented storms hitting him and the club during his tenure as coach.

[Redleg 40,841]

Sorry been busy with life (one of the many who has been told, "you have done a great job, but you won't have it in the New year")

Good luck with the job hunt.