By kicking I mean, more often than not, can hit a target.

Rucks (and ruck forwards) that can kick IMO:

Jacobs, Jenkins, Longer, Leuenberger, Kreuzer, Warnock, Casboult, Jolly, Grundie, Bellchambers, Ryder, Hille, Griffen, Sandilands, Hannath, MacIntosh, Vardy, Blicavs, Z Smith, T Nicholls, Giles, Brogan, Roughead, Hale, Bailey, Gawn, Goldstien, Vickery, McEvoy, Stanley, Mumford, Tippett, Cox, Natanui, Minson, Cordy

Rucks that cant kick:

Hampson, T West, Jamar, Spencer, Fitzpatrick

Not sure if they can kick and not really fussed:

Currie, Daw, Renouf, Phillips, Redden, Maric, Derickx, Lowden, Ceglar, Witts, J Walker, Grimley

It's debatable the impact of a ruckman's kicking on a game - clearly a huge benefit in front of goals.

Yes, most ruckmen dish off - some for fast ball movement, others to avoid kicking or both.

Does it show our inability to develop a player's kicking at all?

Is it part of a bigger ugly picture?

Watching Spencer and Fitzpatrick kicking on the weekend (or missing as the case may be), I decided to look at all AFL ruckmen and see where we stood - and that's about last

I get that this is, yet another, hate Melbourne (players) thread.

But, really, you could try harder than claim that 60% of the ruckmen in the league who "can't kick" are Melbourne players.

Furthermore - to claim that only 5 rucks in the league aren't very good kicks is being disingenuous at best.

I'd argue that Warnock, Hannath, Jacobs, Bailey, Goldstein, Vickery, Minson and Cordy all aren't great kicks around ground.

I'd also point out besides Mike Pyke I'm not sure if there are many rucks in the league who have substantially improved their kicking. It's more what they came in with they went out with.

Spencer can not hit the side of the barn. We know that. He's a hand ball or long bomb kind of guy. We put up with that.

Fitzpatrick isn't much better. That's how they both came into the system and they've both made a lot of ground but I'm not sure how much more they can make. Fitzpatrick joins a category with a lot of those guys in that his mechanics are awful but from a certain range/angle he's not the worst in front of goal. As he will never be a first ruck he has a lot of ground to make up but he has already improved a lot. Spencer's kicking (and marking) will limit him in the game which is why I think he'll only ever be depth. Luckily Gawn is the one on track to be our started and he's the one I care more about. Some days his goal kicking is good other days average. His field kicking is certainly not the worst on that list above.

All in all our recruiting of Gawn and Spencer (the only true rucks we've picked in the last 5 or 6 years) has focused on very tall competitive types instead of shorter and more skilled ruckman. Personally I think that's probably the right approach but I'd be on the lookout in the next 1-2 years for another ruck in one of the drafts and I'd look for a more versatile player who can be a first or second ruck if possible.

I'd say the only way it's part of a bigger picture is by saying that we haven't invested much in rucks at all these last few years (Spencer - rookie, Fitz - late pick up, Gawn - mid round pick up) and yet we've still got bugger all to show in other players on our list. Imagine if we went with Naitanui, Vardy, Billy Longer instead of some of the picks we did take. Could we be even worse?

  On 19/08/2013 at 07:43, 45HG said:

I get that this is, yet another, hate Melbourne (players) thread.

But, really, you could try harder than claim that 60% of the ruckmen in the league who "can't kick" are Melbourne players.

Furthermore - to claim that only 5 rucks in the league aren't very good kicks is being disingenuous at best.

Could start a why are 60% of the worst small forwards in the league - Byrnes, Blease, Davey, Tapscott etc play for Melbourne. Why do 60% of the best key forwards in the comp are injured/ineligible to play for us (Dawes, Clark, Hogan) or why are 60% of the worst coaches in the league employed by Melbourne (that one I could believe)

Not sure about your contention here Rog. I reckon Fitzy is a pretty good kick and Spencer is vastly improved. I remember watching Spencer's first game and first kick. He dribbled it about 15 metres along the ground. Now he is also generally reliable. OK I would not want them in a kicking contest to save my life but give credit where it is due.

  On 19/08/2013 at 08:01, Bitter but optimistic said:

Not sure about your contention here Rog. I reckon Fitzy is a pretty good kick and Spencer is vastly improved. I remember watching Spencer's first game and first kick. He dribbled it about 15 metres along the ground. Now he is also generally reliable. OK I would not want them in a kicking contest to save my life but give credit where it is due.

I agree Bbo not sure Rog is on about.

Oh well it is the end of a very long and terrible year .

I have lost part of my sanity as well.

Not intended as a hate Melbourne thread but possibly could have timed and worded it better HG.

By bigger picture, I meant our general kicking skills - not just ruckmen but I agree with the your recruitment point (the master).

I nearly put Vickery in the cant kick category and yes it's all subjective.

BBO - agree to disagree on Fitz and Spencer

If you think about it Jeff White was probably the last ruckman in the comp that was also almost a complete midfielder in the way he could drill a kick and win a fair bit of the ball

  On 19/08/2013 at 08:46, dazzledavey36 said:

If you think about it Jeff White was probably the last ruckman in the comp that was also almost a complete midfielder in the way he could drill a kick and win a fair bit of the ball

Don't sell Dean Cox short because he's slowed up in the last 24 months as well. And a few others move well like Ryder. Leuenberger moves well but can't kick to the standard of White.

I think the centre circle rule and importance of stoppages has meant that each team now requires 1 big ruck who can at least break even in the contest. You get killed if you lose hit outs and particularly lose hit outs to advantage all game. So in that regard the focus has gone away from skilled rucks.

If he was 18 and entering the system now White would probably be developed as a centre half back, failing that as a forward/ruck like Fitzy and probably only tried as a first ruck if their were injuries.

  On 19/08/2013 at 07:33, Roger Mellie said:

Watching Spencer and Fitzpatrick kicking on the weekend (or missing as the case may be), I decided to look at all AFL ruckmen and see where we stood - and that's about last

Spencer had one kick and I'm sure it hit the target. I wouldn't trust him with my life but I've been surprised at some of the targets he's hit in games this year. Every once in a while you get a botchamania kick which rolls along the ground for two metres but he's definitely getting better.

Will remain as cover only next year, so I'm not all that concerned about him.

Fitzy is an OK kick when he chooses to. Spencer definitely can't kick but worse still he can't even disguise it, at some point if you are an AFL football you have to be willing to kick the bloody thing.

The larger issue, which you've touched on, is that we have very few in our team that are good kicks. Jonesy's actually underestimated, he's one of few that actually lowers his eyes and kicks to advantage. Unfortunately for many on this site, our best kick from a regular player is Watts.

I definitely agree that our overall stats are no where near up to scratch.

I'm not convinced that is the issue in and off itself.

IMO there are so many other aspects - a lack of fitness affecting the kicker, a lack of fitness hindering those who are supposed to protect the ball carrier, a lack of fitness of others who should run into space, poor game plan, poor game sense, poor awareness, poor decision making and a team absolutely and utterly bereft of confidence.

  On 19/08/2013 at 09:01, the master said:

Don't sell Dean Cox short because he's slowed up in the last 24 months as well. And a few others move well like Ryder. Leuenberger moves well but can't kick to the standard of White.

I think the centre circle rule and importance of stoppages has meant that each team now requires 1 big ruck who can at least break even in the contest. You get killed if you lose hit outs and particularly lose hit outs to advantage all game. So in that regard the focus has gone away from skilled rucks.

If he was 18 and entering the system now White would probably be developed as a centre half back, failing that as a forward/ruck like Fitzy and probably only tried as a first ruck if their were injuries.

Forgot about Cox.

White had the ability to pick up 25 plus disposal and drift forward and kick a couple of goals. Something Luendburger and Ryder cant do.

Maybe this should be titled rucks that can't get a kick.

  On 19/08/2013 at 09:26, dazzledavey36 said:

Forgot about Cox.
White had the ability to pick up 25 plus disposal and drift forward and kick a couple of goals. Something Luendburger and Ryder cant do.

Luey can, Rider is hit or miss.

  On 19/08/2013 at 07:33, Roger Mellie said:

By kicking I mean, more often than not, can hit a target.

Rucks (and ruck forwards) that can kick IMO:

Jacobs, Jenkins, Longer, Leuenberger, Kreuzer, Warnock, Casboult, Jolly, Grundie, Bellchambers, Ryder, Hille, Griffen, Sandilands, Hannath, MacIntosh, Vardy, Blicavs, Z Smith, T Nicholls, Giles, Brogan, Roughead, Hale, Bailey, Gawn, Goldstien, Vickery, McEvoy, Stanley, Mumford, Tippett, Cox, Natanui, Minson, Cordy

Rucks that cant kick:

Hampson, T West, Jamar, Spencer, Fitzpatrick

Not sure if they can kick and not really fussed:

Currie, Daw, Renouf, Phillips, Redden, Maric, Derickx, Lowden, Ceglar, Witts, J Walker, Grimley

It's debatable the impact of a ruckman's kicking on a game - clearly a huge benefit in front of goals.

Yes, most ruckmen dish off - some for fast ball movement, others to avoid kicking or both.

Does it show our inability to develop a player's kicking at all?

Is it part of a bigger ugly picture?

Watching Spencer and Fitzpatrick kicking on the weekend (or missing as the case may be), I decided to look at all AFL ruckmen and see where we stood - and that's about last

I decided to have a look at the MFC rucks and the rucks/others you said could kick's goals and average goals/points. Here is what I got:

Player: games this season = total goals/points (average goal/points per game)

Fitzpatrick: 11 games =15/9 (1.4/0.8)

Sellar: 6 games = 1/0 (0.2/0)

Jamar: 9 games = 2/0 (0.2/0)

Here are the players you think can kick ranked in order from best to worst in terms of average goals per game:

Roughhead: 20 games = 60/23 (3/1.2) - Foward/Ruck

Bellchambers: 18 games = 28/11 (1.6/1.3)

Fitzpatrick: 11 games =15/9 (1.4/0.8)

Cordy: 5 games = 5/1 (1.4/0.2) - Forward/Ruck

Vardy: 6 games = 8/2 (1.3/0.3)

Jenkins: 17 games = 24/24 (1.2/1.2)

Giles: 20 games = 13/6 (1.2/0.6)

Vickery: 18 games = 19/16 (1.1/0.9) - Forward/Ruck

Smith: 8 games = 8/3 (1/0.4)

Casboult: 8 games = 7/6 (0.9/0.8)

Hale: 19 games = 14/21 (0.7/1.1) - Worst ratio

Naitanui: 11 games = 8/3 (0.7/0.3) - Forward/Ruck

Cox: 20 games = 13/16 (0.6/0.8)

Gawn: 12 games = 7/2 (0.6/0.2)

Ryder: 15 games = 9/2 (0.6/0.1)

Kreuzer: 15 games = 7/11 (0.5/0.7)

Hannath: 10 games = 5/1 (0.5/0.1)

Bailey: 15 games = 6/1 (0.4/0.1)

Goldstein: 20 games = 9/4 (0.4/0.2)

Jolly: 9 games = 4/4 (0.4/0.4)

Blicavs: 17 games = 7/6 (0.4/0.4)

Leuenberger: 18 games = 7/9 (0.4/0.5)

Mumford: 17 games = 7/8 (0.4/0.5)

Hille: 3 games = 1/4 (0.3/1.3)

Brogan: 9 games = 3/3 (0.3/0.3)

Sandilands: 6 games = 2/1 (0.3/0.2)

Jacobs: 20 games = 3/5 (0.2/0.2)

Grundy: 4 games = 1/1 (0.2/0.2)

Minson: 20 games = 5/5 (0.2/0.2)

Nicholls: 8 games = 2/1 (0.2/0.1)

McEvoy: 20 games = 5/2 (0.2/0.1)

Sellar: 6 games = 1/0 (0.2/0)

Jamar: 9 games = 2/0 (0.2/0)

Longer: 4 games = 0/1 (0/0.2)

Warnock: 8 games = 0/0 (0/0)

McIntosh: N/A

Others:

Tippett: 9 games = 32/18 (3.6/2) - Forward

Griffen: 18 games = 13/9 (0.7/0.5) - Mid

Stanley: 18 games = 6/5 (0.3/0.3) - Forward

I understand that this isn't an accurate measure of kicks but I can't help but feel that the most important thing for rucks in the modern game are efficient tap outs, pressure/multiple efforts and pace.

For me Fitzy has ticked all those boxes this season and not enough people give him credit.

Got to agree that Fitzy has been a reasonable kick over the course of the year. His action at times looks like he's trying to crack a large egg, but he's improved vastly in the last 12-18 months. Sometimes lapses back into bad inaccuracy, but I think it's a confidence thing with him - I believe he's a confidence player.

Spencer, well, he gone from atrocious up to terrible, so maybe he'll get to just plain bad before he finishes up.

On the subject of Jake Spencer, the sooner he packs his bags back to Queensland and takes up rugby, something like a reverse Pike,the better. What an embarrassment,on Sunday I heard him( with a crowd of 13,000 odd at the G, you could nearly hear pin drop) , barking orders to the midfielders before a centre bounce like a five time B&F winner, three time Brownlow winner ,300 gamer, only to palm the ball straight down the throat of a Freo player who cleared the ball that ended up as another goal for them. Also, I think I over heard Joe, the Foxtel cameraman say"can't ruck,can't kick, can't handball but can give free kicks away". To give Jake credit, I think he does give 100% effort,unlike a former number one draft pick but for all his effort, he simply doesn't make the AFL standard.

As for FitzPatrick, he has more than one sting to his bow as opposed to the aforementioned, who IMO, offers zilch. Jake Spencer once actually accrued negative Supercoach points in game which isn't much of a endorsement to support a prolonged AFL career.

I'd go so far as to say Fitzy's field kicking is at least on par with Gawn's now. He's noticably improved this season. I'm not sure what deems Gawn to be a good kick and Fitzy not.

Spencil remains an ordinary kick and I can't see that changing dramatically, but he's improved.

Surley that why Ruckman have Rovers, to do their kicking for them.

  On 19/08/2013 at 09:53, PJ_12345 said:

I understand that this isn't an accurate measure of kicks but I can't help but feel that the most important thing for rucks in the modern game are efficient tap outs, pressure/multiple efforts and pace.

For me Fitzy has ticked all those boxes this season and not enough people give him credit.

I agree completely with efficient tap outs and pressure etc being the most important issue and wasn't trying to illustrate otherwise - more that these days ruckman cant get away with not being able to kick as much as they could in the past and that teams aren't willing to carry them.

I also agree that Fitzpatrick has improved every single aspect of his game since he trotted around in the Casey 2's looking like a permanent fixture.

On another note - Brodie Grundy, for mine, is the best young ruckman I've seen. Normally you'd expect to see that level of impact in a ruckman in his third, forth or fifth year in the system.

  On 19/08/2013 at 11:43, Roger Mellie said:

On another note - Brodie Grundy, for mine, is the best young ruckman I've seen. Normally you'd expect to see that level of impact in a ruckman in his third, forth or fifth year in the system.

Yeah agree Roger. Spewing the Pies got him at pick 20 or the like. Was touted as top 5 pick and was always going to be a very good ruck. Can see him becoming the best ruck in the league in 3 yrs time.

  On 19/08/2013 at 09:01, the master said:

Don't sell Dean Cox short because he's slowed up in the last 24 months as well. And a few others move well like Ryder. Leuenberger moves well but can't kick to the standard of White.

I think the centre circle rule and importance of stoppages has meant that each team now requires 1 big ruck who can at least break even in the contest. You get killed if you lose hit outs and particularly lose hit outs to advantage all game. So in that regard the focus has gone away from skilled rucks.

If he was 18 and entering the system now White would probably be developed as a centre half back, failing that as a forward/ruck like Fitzy and probably only tried as a first ruck if their were injuries.

Dean Cox didn't become a good kick till around 2004ish even he took 5 years in the system to learn how to kick

I'd rather Spencer spend more time learning how to effective tap to advantage rather than worry about his kicking. The amount of times he's gone up unopposed and tapped it directly to the opposition is frustrating...

  On 19/08/2013 at 07:49, the master said:

Could start a why are 60% of the worst small forwards in the league - Byrnes, Blease, Davey, Tapscott etc play for Melbourne. Why do 60% of the best key forwards in the comp are injured/ineligible to play for us (Dawes, Clark, Hogan) or why are 60% of the worst coaches in the league employed by Melbourne (that one I could believe)

I dont read other club's blogs, but I suspect that well over 60% of posters over all those threads who express total disdain for everything their clubs do or represent are Melbourne "supporters", using the term very loosely.