Our players are killing our club

[Sir Why You Little 35,322]

you are pretty much an expert then

No, but did you ever go to their Thursday Training nights? You do learn things by listening and asking the odd question.

They were very well known at the time....anybody was welcomed.

[dee-luded 2,958]

i understand the Hawthorn culture fairly well...i went to Thursday Training sessions at Glenferrie oval quite a few times in 89 for the Sausage Sizzle with a Hawthorn mate i worked with.

I only disagree with you on one point...i do not think our softness came from the Northern stand of the MCC....i think it evolved entirely within the MFC..which is probably why there has been so much Board disharmony through the decades.

Now maybe the MCC was not forceful enough on this, but i do place the blame fairly and squarely on the Football Club.

We can become strong with the MCC we need the BEST CEO & Football Manager as the base....

sorry WYL, I disagree with that... the MFC was really the MCC back in the early days & unsuccessful...

Percy page came over, saw & sent for Checker Hughes to bring in some tenacity from outside the MCC/MCG. they turned the club into Demons.. And he turned out our Smithy as well, just as Smithy turned out our Barass.

the tenacity has always been lacking from the hallows of the MCC areas. theres was the fuscias...

the Demons were imported WYL.

and the same goes on still today... we have been back under that fuscia influence, since the mid 60's...

[dee-luded 2,958]

No, but did you ever go to their Thursday Training nights? You do learn things by listening and asking the odd question.

They were very well known at the time....anybody was welcomed.

so why then don't you get this WYL... how many members do the Hawks have today?

[Sir Why You Little 35,322]

so why then don't you get this WYL... how many members do the Hawks have today?

The Hawks Bought a suburb that had a VFL asset, smart move...at a very cheap price, and sold a small part of themselves to Tasmania..

We should have bought the Lexus Centre...That was the time to go into debt

But we the MFC had split from the MCC....Bad Move indeed.

[dee-luded 2,958]

The Hawks Bought a suburb that had a VFL asset, smart move...at a very cheap price, and sold a small part of themselves to Tasmania..

We should have bought the Lexus Centre...That was the time to go into debt

But we the MFC had split from the MCC....Bad Move indeed.

wyl the hawks great camaraderie between the club & supporter base started way back @ Glenferrie & has not waned.. they built it thru welcoming supporter contact around the club at its Glenferrie HQ's...

the club grew to be successful & they don't disappoint their fans...the fight for one another, all for one & one for all. they are the epitome of a club United.

we are fragmented like east & west germany was....

now I wonder why that is?????

[jnrmac 19,508]

A first year players shows what can be done? I was referring to cultural change. I made no mention of Watts or any other player, so how about actually reading the words of the post, rather than reading into it what you want.

The examples you provide are not relevant to Melbourne because Selwood walked straight into a club with one of the best culture's in the AFL. He did not shape the culture of the club.

Nathan Jones and Viney are good players with great attitudes, but our clubs culture remains weak at best. As for Boak, Port Adelaide was a shambles last year until the CLUB sorted out the mess and provided a better environment for the players, and created a better culture. Or are you suggesting that Port has been successful and a better club since Boak walked in the door in 2007. When Boak arrived in 2007, Port was near it's peak. Since then they missed finals in 08' and 09, before being cellar dwellers from 2010 - 2012. Despite this, Boak didn't walk into a club with a bad culture, he walked into a club with a winning culture which then turned bad or lazy until the club took steps to fix it again.

As for Ward, he's a good player but he's rarely been apart of a winning team, apart from his early years at the bulldogs where they were regular finals contenders . Once again, he walked into a successful club with a good culture.

My point remains, a player cannot change a culture. Rather only when all the players are on board can a culture be changed. And the responsibility for getting all of the players on the board rests with the club, from the Administrators all the way down to the head coach. Then, from there, the players become responsible for maintaining that culture into the future.

So next time you criticise my argument for being "ridiculous" how about you actually read the words first, and use that thing called "comprehension" to understand it before just throwing out some random rubbish statements.

Let me finish with a question? If a player is drafted and has only ever been exposed to the training standards at a TAC Cup or state team level, who does he learn professional standards from once he enters an AFL team? The player can bring with them a great attitude, but the culture and the professional standards are set by the Club not the first year player just starting his AFL career.

Your post is full of such garbage.

The examples you provide are not relevant to Melbourne because Selwood walked straight into a club with one of the best culture's in the AFL. He did not shape the culture of the club.

Really? Geelong were a basket case when Selwood joined. Nearly sacked their coach and finished 10th. Fail. He has been instrumental in changing the geelong culture.

Boak has almost single handedly turned Port around. Fail.

As for your stupid comment about Ward he has held GWS together and led from the front. Fail.

You'd be one of those pathetic Jack Watts types " ooohh if only the club had better administration I'd be a really good player" Sure you can create a culture from the top down. But you can also do it from the bottom up. Our pea hearts are looking for any excuse they can find. Just like you by the sound of things.

[Satyriconhome 10,091]

Culture is a constant. It ebbs and flows according to quality of strategy and execution.

MFC = poor culture

Sounds like you need some buzz words old mate.

Buzz words are there to cover inadequacy, so no thanks

Nuff said this time saty.

Who actually makes enough sense out of your inane ramblings to type your senseless posts.

The above is directed at saty not wyl.

Personal insults I think, not sure due to the rather haphazard syntax, try answering what I posted, no probably not

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Your post is full of such garbage.

Really? Geelong were a basket case when Selwood joined. Nearly sacked their coach and finished 10th. Fail. He has been instrumental in changing the geelong culture.

Boak has almost single handedly turned Port around. Fail.

As for your stupid comment about Ward he has held GWS together and led from the front. Fail.

You'd be one of those pathetic Jack Watts types " ooohh if only the club had better administration I'd be a really good player" Sure you can create a culture from the top down. But you can also do it from the bottom up. Our pea hearts are looking for any excuse they can find. Just like you by the sound of things.

i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you either way... I would love to think that a kid like Viney could dominate proceedings on and off the field that it really sets a tone for everyone else, removing the peahearted, weak, lazy attitude that has been festering for years - but I think it is unlikely without others helping. The thing that is scary is that when they were drafted you would have backed all of Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove and Grimes to be the types to set this type of culture, all were touted as such... but obviously they have made zero difference thus far as we still play like we don't actually care if we win matches or not.

[jnrmac 19,508]

i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you either way... I would love to think that a kid like Viney could dominate proceedings on and off the field that it really sets a tone for everyone else, removing the peahearted, weak, lazy attitude that has been festering for years - but I think it is unlikely without others helping. The thing that is scary is that when they were drafted you would have backed all of Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove and Grimes to be the types to set this type of culture, all were touted as such... but obviously they have made zero difference thus far as we still play like we don't actually care if we win matches or not.

Some players demand it don't they? They bring other players along with them. To me its the difference between knowing what it takes to be a leader and being a leader.

Strangely enough I don't think Nate Jones has it. He is tireless and a warrior bit I don't think is capable of dragging players with him. Mitch Clark i think is. I'm told dawes is (if he ever stays on the park) Grimes and Trengove probably don't have the ability either given the question marks over their performance - they meet most of the other criteria i'd reckon.

FWIW I don't reckon Judd is a leader. Sam Mitchell doesnt have it but Hodge does. So its more than just being a good player. ahh the elusive qualities of leadership.....

Edited August 21, 2013 by jnrmac

[Sir Why You Little 35,322]

Some players demand it don't they? They bring other players along with them. To me its the difference between knowing what it takes to be a leader and being a leader.

Strangely enough I don't think Nate Jones has it. He is tireless and a warrior bit I don't think is capable of dragging players with him. Mitch Clark i think is. I'm told dawes is (if he ever stays on the park) Grimes and Trengove probably don't have the ability either given the question marks over their performance - they meet most of the other criteria i'd reckon.

FWIW I don't reckon Judd is a leader. Sam Mitchell doesnt have it but Hodge does. So its more than just being a good player. ahh the elusive qualities of leadership.....

agree with all that Junior.

Trengove and Grimes should never have been made captains. It does not come natural to them.

And their output on matchday has been muted.

Neeld threw them to the lions & Schwab gave Grimes 31, further alienating his own pathway.

2 careers may be ruined, just so Neeld could have his power over Moloney.

Nate Jones is what he is. Don't give him extra work. His plate is already full.

[Satyriconhome 10,091]

agree with all that Junior.

Trengove and Grimes should never have been made captains. It does not come natural to them.

And their output on matchday has been muted.

Neeld threw them to the lions & Schwab gave Grimes 31, further alienating his own pathway.

2 careers may be ruined, just so Neeld could have his power over Moloney.

Nate Jones is what he is. Don't give him extra work. His plate is already full.

You do let your ongoing pathological hatred of Cam Schwab get in the way of some of your posts WYL, what did he do, run over your cat? I suggest you need to talk to somebody about it, it's unhealthy

How many conversations have you had with both Trengove and Grimes to form the above opinion?

?

Input into matches needs an injury free run (including pre season) to help with conistency, have Trengove and Grimes had that this season?

As for on field leadership, most teams have on field leaders who are not necessarily captains, (you need to ask yourself why James Kelly at Geelong has never been a captain), some become captains later as the off field catches up with the on field, Nate Jones by his own admission, I know I have spoken to him about it, wasn't ready for an off field leadership role until the last year or so, he still leads by example on the field though

[jazza 1,323]

Some players demand it don't they? They bring other players along with them. To me its the difference between knowing what it takes to be a leader and being a leader.

Strangely enough I don't think Nate Jones has it. He is tireless and a warrior bit I don't think is capable of dragging players with him. Mitch Clark i think is. I'm told dawes is (if he ever stays on the park) Grimes and Trengove probably don't have the ability either given the question marks over their performance - they meet most of the other criteria i'd reckon.

FWIW I don't reckon Judd is a leader. Sam Mitchell doesnt have it but Hodge does. So its more than just being a good player. ahh the elusive qualities of leadership.....

oh jnrmac

been speaking about leadership for a while and most people don't know.understand the concept

they think it relates to statistics,both in footy and cricket

nothing could be further from the truth in team sports

thanks for the great post,im now waiting for the flotsam to appear and give us statistics on leadership

not knocking the captains/ie leadership is different to captaincy

btw I think the new prez will be the one to instigate change within the club

Edited August 21, 2013 by jazza

[pm24 451]

Your post is full of such garbage.

Really? Geelong were a basket case when Selwood joined. Nearly sacked their coach and finished 10th. Fail. He has been instrumental in changing the geelong culture.

Boak has almost single handedly turned Port around. Fail.

As for your stupid comment about Ward he has held GWS together and led from the front. Fail.

You'd be one of those pathetic Jack Watts types " ooohh if only the club had better administration I'd be a really good player" Sure you can create a culture from the top down. But you can also do it from the bottom up. Our pea hearts are looking for any excuse they can find. Just like you by the sound of things.

So rather than just labelling my post as garbage, do you mind explaining why you think it is garbage.

Also, what evidence do you have the Boak "single handedly turned Port around?" or is it not fact, but rather just your perception. I could easily run an argument that the cultural change was a result of Hinkley being appointed, as well as the other staff that were appointed to support him. I mean Port's fortunes only turned around this year after Hinkley was appointed, given they finished 16th and 14th in 2011 and 2012.

Same for Selwood. How did he turn their culture around? Are you suggesting that guys like Ling, Harley, Ablett Jnr, Scarlett, Milburn, Mooney, Bartell, Chapman, Ottens contributed nothing to that club culture?

Here's some background, from Wikipedia (yes it's not always the most reliable) but it refers to an article from the time, which highlights that Chapman could actually have been the one that helped lead the turn around the culture, and that Mark Thompson also passed on criticisms of players. No mention of Selwood:

It appeared Geelong would repeat the outcome of the previous season after five rounds of the 2007 season, where Geelong was positioned tenth on the ladder with two wins and three losses, with the latest loss being against the Kangaroos at Skilled Stadium. Following this unexpected loss at their home ground, player Paul Chapman publicly criticised the club's culture,^[19] expressing frustration at the lack of team mentality present with many of the players,^[19] and urging the club as a whole to change this underachieving culture for the better.^[19] Chapman's criticisms, which followed a similar assessment from coach Mark Thompson,^[19] led to a group discussion involving all of the club's playing and coaching staff,^[19] and produced frank assessments of both individuals and the club in general.

The article they link to is here: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/more-sports/chappy-swipes-at-cats/story-e6frfglf-1111113436723

You seem to be getting confused about what I'm saying. I'm in no way suggesting that the players you have mentioned have not contributed positively to the culture of the club, but they are not solely responsible for turning around a club culture. If a culture is to change it has to come from the top down. If the leadership and football department of the club are not on board, then regardless of the leadership of one individual, change in the culture is unlikely.

You say Ward has "held them together". No doubt he has lead from the front but that doesn't determine a culture. He was a great contributor at the Bulldogs as well, but regardless, that doesn't determine a club's culture. Nathan Jones leads from the front, but we still have a club culture.

You do not seem to understand what I mean when I refer to a club culture. Rather, you seem to be focusing on which players are great leaders in their clubs. They are two different points.

Thanks for the sledge by the way as one of those "Jack Watts types". Actually, my approach to sport was always to work your backside off, to go hard as soon as you cross that white line, and to compete until the final siren. But feel free to sledge away and make personal attacks against someone just voicing an opinion slightly different to your own. Very mature of you.

Edited August 21, 2013 by pm24

[Sir Why You Little 35,322]

You do let your ongoing pathological hatred of Cam Schwab get in the way of some of your posts WYL, what did he do, run over your cat? I suggest you need to talk to somebody about it, it's unhealthy

How many conversations have you had with both Trengove and Grimes to form the above opinion?

?

Input into matches needs an injury free run (including pre season) to help with conistency, have Trengove and Grimes had that this season?

As for on field leadership, most teams have on field leaders who are not necessarily captains, (you need to ask yourself why James Kelly at Geelong has never been a captain), some become captains later as the off field catches up with the on field, Nate Jones by his own admission, I know I have spoken to him about it, wasn't ready for an off field leadership role until the last year or so, he still leads by example on the field though

Go away and bother someone else please.

After your complete and utter delusional response to the legitamacy of a "culture" or not yesterday your opinions mean little to nothing to me.

In regards to 1.. Cameron Schwab, that snake oil salesman deserves all he gets from me and any other poster on here who can see what both his motives and achievements were.

He has left this club in a catatonic state.

Nate Jones. 2...i already said above that he is a onfielder worker who does a fine job who does not need to be captain. Why repeat what i said? adding "I had a word with him about it"

Tickets on yourself going cheap are they??

Leigh Matthews took Hawthorns culture up to Brisbane and won three in a row (almost 4)

Now go away.

[rpfc 27,692]

Really? Geelong were a basket case when Selwood joined. Nearly sacked their coach and finished 10th. Fail. He has been instrumental in changing the geelong culture.

Chapman, Ling, Harley, and Bartel and Balme coming across from Collingwood were the drivers to pull their collective finger out from what I heard.

I think it does those guys a disservice to say that a teenager pulled the team around.

[DeeSpencer 23,686]

Chapman, Ling, Harley, and Bartel and Balme coming across from Collingwood were the drivers to pull their collective finger out from what I heard.

I think it does those guys a disservice to say that a teenager pulled the team around.

Scarlett and Mooney having kids and not getting on the [censored] every weekend apparently helped as well. Not to mention the leading teams thing actually worked for Gary Ablett and Stevie J's suspension back to the VFL worked wonders.

But that was an outstanding group of players. They made a prelim in 04 and should've made another in 05. I mean we'd have to hit this years current draft with 4 or 5 genuine A grade prospects and then climb that ladder to a prelim and then stagnate for any kind of comparison. I look at this Melbourne team and think 5 wins this year and 7 or 8 next would be actually achieving potential. It's just a shame we haven't got there.

[old dee 23,256]

Scarlett and Mooney having kids and not getting on the [censored] every weekend apparently helped as well. Not to mention the leading teams thing actually worked for Gary Ablett and Stevie J's suspension back to the VFL worked wonders.

But that was an outstanding group of players. They made a prelim in 04 and should've made another in 05. I mean we'd have to hit this years current draft with 4 or 5 genuine A grade prospects and then climb that ladder to a prelim and then stagnate for any kind of comparison. I look at this Melbourne team and think 5 wins this year and 7 or 8 next would be actually achieving potential. It's just a shame we haven't got there.

I don't agree with you TM

This team does not have the ability to win 5 games this year.

No matter who is the coach in 2014 they will still struggle to win five in 2014.

Only by changing a number of players over the next couple of years will we reach a point in 2015 off being able to win 5 - 8 games.

Our list is IMO very poor.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Scarlett and Mooney having kids and not getting on the [censored] every weekend apparently helped as well. Not to mention the leading teams thing actually worked for Gary Ablett and Stevie J's suspension back to the VFL worked wonders.

But that was an outstanding group of players. They made a prelim in 04 and should've made another in 05. I mean we'd have to hit this years current draft with 4 or 5 genuine A grade prospects and then climb that ladder to a prelim and then stagnate for any kind of comparison. I look at this Melbourne team and think 5 wins this year and 7 or 8 next would be actually achieving potential. It's just a shame we haven't got there.

Agreed, it is hard to look at Geelong and not wonder to what extent they just got incredibly lucky to have 7 or 8 top shelf players in the same side, like the Hawks of the late 80s. I'm sure it has a lot to do with strong culture and good development too but you have to wonder

[Guest]

I agree with all this stuff about culture. I said earlier about how coaching is not all that difficult from most managerial jobs. Remember as well, football is these players jobs. I have been in organizations which have been run badly, had people at each others throats, lazy employees etc. and it's a f***ing awful place to be. People need to be happy where they are working.

That being said...

We need to let go of what worked 50 years ago and see things for what they are. While I don't disagree with dee-luded in that a social club will help in bringing pieces of the club together, it won't change everything. The sad thing is that Richmond, North and Carlton started introducing social clubs in the 70's and we missed that boat. We now have to play catch up in that area.

Put frankly we need to look at ourselves as a GWS/Gold Coast style club (with less money!). Our history while it makes us feel great is also an anchor. People in other threads have mentioned how this allows the club to hide in the past to make itself feel better but it also allows us to delude ourselves into thinking that stuff that worked 50/40/30 years ago will work now. Back then, players all had a second job. Paul Van Der Haar could turn up on camera during the replay smoking a durry. You could run pie nights. Now, it just doesn't work that way...

[dee-luded 2,958]

I agree with all this stuff about culture. I said earlier about how coaching is not all that difficult from most managerial jobs. Remember as well, football is these players jobs. I have been in organizations which have been run badly, had people at each others throats, lazy employees etc. and it's a f***ing awful place to be. People need to be happy where they are working.

absolutely our culture is a bit safety oriented off field,, keeping out of the riff raffs way,,, protecting our home (hah - the mcc allowed others take over our nest)... resting on our pride from the past...

That being said...

We need to let go of what worked 50 years ago and see things for what they are. While I don't disagree with dee-luded in that a social club will help in bringing pieces of the club together, it won't change everything. The sad thing is that Richmond, North and Carlton started introducing social clubs in the 70's and we missed that boat. We now have to play catch up in that area.

Put frankly we need to look at ourselves as a GWS/Gold Coast style club (with less money!). Our history while it makes us feel great is also an anchor. People in other threads have mentioned how this allows the club to hide in the past to make itself feel better but it also allows us to delude ourselves into thinking that stuff that worked 50/40/30 years ago will work now. Back then, players all had a second job. Paul Van Der Haar could turn up on camera during the replay smoking a durry. You could run pie nights. Now, it just doesn't work that way...

our culture has changed from the old MCC-MFC culture where people were more normal,, & stuck together on a cause... Todays affluent members most who are very politically correct & have a pretense about them,,, which rubs off on those in its sphere, if they let it...

Jones hasn't,,, but many kids do & get way ahead of themselves in this environment.

In a Training/Social Hub, there is a broad brush mix of supporters who are in contact with the players regularly, & the battlers help keep the players heads from disappearing where the Sun don't shine.

.... the battlers help to motivate the players to go to war for the cause. (just as we all like to help the sick little kid, or the disabled, or the underdog) it gives us purpous.

Without that HUB, we fail to grow the club for many reasons, including new supporters, many of them are unable to get the contact they desire with their Idols. and the players need they're contact, & the adulation freely given, especially when things are tough.

..... I wonder if the generations of losses has caused the club to shield the players away from the frustrated supporters, instead of biting the bullet & face up.

The training social HUB will allow the Melbourne Organisation, to grow into a Club. and start the fight back to grow the supporter base... a strong supporter base converts into member numbers, more noise at the games, & more excitement generated around the club.

... this then turns into more facilities thru more money & better footy dept spend.

being a little elitist organisation will eventually killoff the Red & Blue.

Edited August 21, 2013 by dee-luded

[dee-luded 2,958]

Go away and bother someone else please.

After your complete and utter delusional response to the legitamacy of a "culture" or not yesterday your opinions mean little to nothing to me.

In regards to 1.. Cameron Schwab, that snake oil salesman deserves all he gets from me and any other poster on here who can see what both his motives and achievements were.

He has left this club in a catatonic state.

Nate Jones. 2...i already said above that he is a onfielder worker who does a fine job who does not need to be captain. Why repeat what i said? adding "I had a word with him about it"

Tickets on yourself going cheap are they??

Leigh Matthews took Hawthorns culture up to Brisbane and won three in a row (almost 4)

Now go away.

are you on Holiday in the Northern Hemisphere WYL?

Edited August 21, 2013 by dee-luded

[titan_uranus 23,228]

Your post is full of such garbage.

Really? Geelong were a basket case when Selwood joined. Nearly sacked their coach and finished 10th. Fail. He has been instrumental in changing the geelong culture.

Boak has almost single handedly turned Port around. Fail.

As for your stupid comment about Ward he has held GWS together and led from the front. Fail.

You'd be one of those pathetic Jack Watts types " ooohh if only the club had better administration I'd be a really good player" Sure you can create a culture from the top down. But you can also do it from the bottom up. Our pea hearts are looking for any excuse they can find. Just like you by the sound of things.

You're nowhere near it.

Geelong was not a 'basket case' when Selwood joined. We are a basket case. Geelong was an underperforming but talented side. Big difference. And at any rate, Selwood didn't just pull Geelong up. If you think Geelong wouldn't have won the premiership if they hadn't taken Selwood, you're a moron. If any single player did what you think Selwood did, it was Chapman (or Ling, or Harley, or Scarlett, or a bunch of others who aren't Selwood). Selwood merely added to a 'culture' that was driven by Geelong's frustrated senior players.

Boak has been instrumental in Port's on-field resurgence. But that has nothing to do with 'culture'. For one, Boak was there last year, when Port was a disaster. He hasn't changed. What he's doing differently is not his attitude or his 'culture', it's his gameplay. And again, if any one person has improved Port, it's Hinkley, who has changed more things as a group than Boak has done on his own.

Then you claim Ward has 'held GWS together'. That firstly implies it needed holding together, as if it was going to fall apart. It wouldn't have. And even if he had had some influence on the side, it can't have been that great, given they're performing worse than Melbourne is this year. He's absolutely led from the front. That has nothing to do with 'culture'.

Your arguments are insipid.

[Bitter but optimistic 21,580]

God I'm loving this thread. It shows the best ( or worst of Dland). It's a bit of a cricket match really. WYL is batting against a varied attack and is not out. Yes he has played and missed and there has been a DRS controversy or two but no one seems able to bowl a yorker.

Keep playing. I'm sitting back on the grass, enjoying a drink and hoping to last till stumps.

[old dee 23,256]

God I'm loving this thread. It shows the best ( or worst of Dland). It's a bit of a cricket match really. WYL is batting against a varied attack and is not out. Yes he has played and missed and there has been a DRS controversy or two but no one seems able to bowl a yorker.

Keep playing. I'm sitting back on the grass, enjoying a drink and hoping to last till stumps.

How are the clothes going Bbo?

I hope that grass is not affecting the fabric.

[Bitter but optimistic 21,580]

How are the clothes going Bbo?

I hope that grass is not affecting the fabric.

No worries OD I'm in mufti. And, I no longer have to worry about the other grass.