titan_uranus, on 14 Apr 2013 - 16:10, said:

Every single one of your observations is based on what the player has done at AFL level.

Like I said. Go back to the build ups to each of the drafts. Every single player we took (with the sole exception of Lucas Cook) was rated highly enough to be taken where they were. That rating did not come from the MFC only, but league-wide.

We did not make mistakes in taking these players. Our mistakes have been the way we have developed them.

It's just ridiculous.

Remember Daniel Rich? He 'had it' in his first year. Then he disappeared. I heard one commentator refer to his good game last night as 'finally, the return of Daniel Rich'.

Just because Wines has a bigger body than Toumpas does not make him a better player.

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a pessimistic view is an apologist, or has an apologetic view?

You, and anyone else who uses that phrase, mistakes 'logic' for 'apologism'.

Daniel Rich averaged 21.7 possessions last year and kicked 20 goals I wish some of our mids would go missing like that.

I don't judge kids after three games but he should not be playing AFL.

I thought this was why we got Jones, Magner, Rodan, Byrnes, et al so we don't have to throw these kids into situations where they are asked to do too much.

Thankfully our happy idiots are not allowed to play Hogan or we would be playing him to so he can be monstered and beaten and be bereft of confidence.

Let him play for Casey, get Magner on the bloody list and let's stop throwing our kids to the wolves.

I don't judge kids after three games but he should not be playing AFL.

I thought this was why we got Jones, Magner, Rodan, Byrnes, et al so we don't have to throw these kids into situations where they are asked to do too much.

Thankfully our happy idiots are not allowed to play Hogan or we would be playing him to so he can be monstered and beaten and be bereft of confidence.

Let him play for Casey, get Magner on the bloody list and let's stop throwing our kids to the wolves.

This, 100 times this.

Watts on QB for his first game - Brereton reckons the Collingwood team still refers to Watts as "their [censored]" - might have broken the kid.

Let's not break Toumpas, please... the kid seems to have a real sense of responsibility - I suspect he'll run around with Casey for a while, and we'll get a bit better.

I agree - let's leave him alone

Waddles.

Kinda like 'the duck' Wayne Carey

hold your judgement. Stop being so ban wagon and have some faith in a 19 year old, wtf.

He will be a star and just needs a chance.

I say, play him against GWS in the middle and watch him tear it up

Actually feel sorry for him.

Actually feel sorry for him.

That we drafted him?And will subsequently steal his football soul?

I do feel for the kid too as he seems like a ripper fella but he isn't ready. I remember Neale Daniher refused to play Nathan Jones straight away in his first year because he simply wasn't ready. We were all crying out for him to be picked because he was physically built but the rigours and speed of AFL would have got to him like it has with Toumpas. Jones didn't make his debut till about round 17 I think. Fair to say he was developed right. look at him now.

I struggle to see how he was drafted, let alone at pick 4.

Cale Morton Mark II?

Edited April 14, 201312 yr by PJ_12345

Comparing the merits of two players after three games each is ridiculous. In the long run, Wines might be better than Toumpas, Toumpas might be better than Wines and pick 53* might be better than everyone.

*Picked at random. I have no idea who was pick 53

I do feel for the kid too as he seems like a ripper fella but he isn't ready. I remember Neale Daniher refused to play Nathan Jones straight away in his first year because he simply wasn't ready. We were all crying out for him to be picked because he was physically built but the rigours and speed of AFL would have got to him like it has with Toumpas. Jones didn't make his debut till about round 17 I think. Fair to say he was developed right. look at him now.

Jones was in a similar place to that which Watts finds himself in now, in that all and sundry on the forums were baying for his blood, calling for him to be traded, referring to him as a 'C' grade player with no future and so on... this went on until about three seasons ago when things started to click and the rest is history. Let's not allow Toumpas suffer the same fate as Watts.

Unfortunately in this new age of instant gratification and fast food, too many expect players to be ready to go 'out of the box', plug 'n play, served up in 2 minutes or you get one free. Too many just don't get that the vast majority of great players took/take time to mature. They often are the players whose value can become the greatest because they have had to put in the hard yards, take the knocks and abuse and as a result have built strength of character which can be as important as (if not more important than) physical strength. (I know, I'm ranting/raving).

Edited April 15, 201312 yr by hardtack

Jones was in a similar place to that which Watts finds himself in now, in that all and sundry on the forums were baying for his blood, calling for him to be traded, referring to him as a 'C' grade player with no future and so on... this went on until about three seasons ago when things started to click and the rest is history. Let's not allow Toumpas suffer the same fate as Watts.

Apples and pears.

Waddles.

Lethal Leigh and Greg Williams waddled as well. Give the kid a chance. Early days. Dawes also waddles and Jamar would probably waddle but can't recall seeing him run.

Apples and pears.

Sorry, you'll need to explain - I'm a little slow

Jones was in a similar place to that which Watts finds himself in now, in that all and sundry on the forums were baying for his blood, calling for him to be traded, referring to him as a 'C' grade player with no future and so on... this went on until about three seasons ago when things started to click and the rest is history. Let's not allow Toumpas suffer the same fate as Watts.

Unfortunately in this new age of instant gratification and fast food, too many expect players to be ready to go 'out of the box', plug 'n play, served up in 2 minutes or you get one free. Too many just don't get that the vast majority of great players took/take time to mature. They often are the players whose value can become the greatest because they have had to put in the hard yards, take the knocks and abuse and as a result have built strength of character which can be as important as (if not more important than) physical strength. (I know, I'm ranting/raving).

I like dazzle dave's comment.

I like dazzle dave's comment.

So do I... your point?

That we drafted him?And will subsequently steal his football soul?

Unlike some, at least he has one.

I do feel for the kid too as he seems like a ripper fella but he isn't ready. I remember Neale Daniher refused to play Nathan Jones straight away in his first year because he simply wasn't ready. We were all crying out for him to be picked because he was physically built but the rigours and speed of AFL would have got to him like it has with Toumpas. Jones didn't make his debut till about round 17 I think. Fair to say he was developed right. look at him now.

A smart footy club would play him against Port then sent him back to Casey for a fortnight, then played him against gws so he could have a run around with guys similar to his age, then see where it went from there,remember i said a SMART footy club.

A smart footy club would play him against Port then sent him back to Casey for a fortnight, then played him against gws so he could have a run around with guys similar to his age, then see where it went from there,remember i said a SMART footy club.

Then get criticised for dropping him back to Casey after one game.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Why don't you get involved with the club mjt?

Then I'm sure the club would be pulling all the right strings and not one bit of criticism would come the clubs way.

Oh my god, cannot believe it, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, who would've thought? Wines v Toumpas to early to call. I really feel the club is blessed with an exceptional number of masochists as supporters. And truth be told if you are a masochist why would you support any other club? Anyway I bleed for the day our self flagellators feel a need to follow Collingwood.

Then get criticised for dropping him back to Casey after one game.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Why don't you get involved with the club mjt?

Then I'm sure the club would be pulling all the right strings and not one bit of criticism would come the clubs way.

Whats your beef, the club deserves every bit of criticism it gets, you been sitting in the cheer squad to long.

Edited April 15, 201312 yr by mjt

Whats your beef, the club deserves every bit of criticism it gets, you been sitting in the cheer squad to long.

The club deserves every bit of criticism it deserves (and that is plenty without having to go inventing scenarios simply to justify putting the boot in).

Should Port have rested Wines after round 1? After all, both he and Toumpas have had experience playing against the senior ranks - yes Wines has a bigger body, but both are not new to senior football. I might be wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything posted by you making such an observation when he was named in the round 2 side... 20/20 hindsight?

The club deserves every bit of criticism it deserves (and that is plenty without having to go inventing scenarios simply to justify putting the boot in).

Should Port have rested Wines after round 1? After all, both he and Toumpas have had experience playing against the senior ranks - yes Wines has a bigger body, but both are not new to senior football. I might be wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything posted by you making such an observation when he was named in the round 2 side... 20/20 hindsight?

One performed and the other didnt, its not rocket science.

Then get criticised for dropping him back to Casey after one game.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What's your position on how we have selected Toumpas this year HT?

Wines could end up Selwood or Daniel Harris or anywhere in between. Wines and Viney are exceptions to the rule. Not the rule. Not many kids come out and burn in their first 20 games and those that do rarely do it in a team being put to the sword. Those that do dont have it easy their whole career.