Maybe G Lyon should have spoken to R Lyon after all!

[Sir Why You Little 34,600]

I don't disagree with you that Lyon has been good to Fremantle. I also don't disagree that he'd have been good to Melbourne.

But whinging about how we could have had him is like whinging about us not having Lance Franklin. I mean, why didn't we call him up and ask him to come here?

Not whingeing. Mark Neeld looks to be of the same mould.

But he is raw. R. Lyon knows what works.

The Crows will be very nervous this week.

[titan_uranus 22,466]

Bradley, McPhee. Pearce, Ibbotson, Dawson, Silvagni, Mzungu, Spurr, Suban, Crowley = mundane.

I'm not sating they're terrible. I'm not saying they're not OK. I'm saying they're mundane.

And obviously their top end talent is better than ours. Whose isn't ?

And I didn't compare Neeld to Lyon.

Every club has mundane players. To call Fremantle in the main mundane despite the list of players I gave (and I don't think Pearce, Mzungu or Crowley are mundane, but each to their own) is a bit ridiculous. I'm watching West Coast light up Paterson's Stadium, yet I would say that Glass, McKenzie, Selwood, other Selwood and Brennan are mundane, but the team isn't.

All clubs have mundane, dour, or generally bland players. But Fremantle, in some respects more than other teams, has some real talent and excitement.

My comments on Neeld and Lyon were more ramblings on the topic than anything in response to you.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Every club has mundane players. To call Fremantle in the main mundane despite the list of players I gave (and I don't think Pearce, Mzungu or Crowley are mundane, but each to their own) is a bit ridiculous.

They're what I call interchangeable players.

Go to the "Blue Sky" thread on page 2 and read post #89 (page 4).

I can't express my position better than that.

[titan_uranus 22,466]

They're what I call interchangeable players.

Go to the "Blue Sky" thread on page 2 and read post #89 (page 4).

I can't express my position better than that.

I agree with that post. I think, though, your post seems to place a lot of weight on that core and not enough on the 'interchangeables'. It's the top 6 v bottom 6 debate, sure, but I feel like there is a similar argument to say that Hawthorn is where they are as much because their core is outstanding as because their interchangeables are all performing and pulling their weight.

Anyway, I'm not sure how that changes anything here. You said Fremantle was 'in the main mundane'. I said that they have as much excitement as most other sides. Not entirely sure what your interchangeables post does to change that, as much as I agree with it.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Anyway, I'm not sure how that changes anything here. You said Fremantle was 'in the main mundane'. I said that they have as much excitement as most other sides. Not entirely sure what your interchangeables post does to change that, as much as I agree with it.

I thought you'd say that.

I reckon their "top end" is below other sides and their "interchangeables" are also below average when compared to other sides. Pavlich, Sandi, Mundy, Fyfe, Ballantyne and McPharlin are good, but below others in the top tier stakes.

We'll have to agree to differ, but I reckon Lyon's game-plan and coaching style is elite. He's producing a high level of performance out of the talent at his disposal. Which was my point. I accept you rate their list higher than me.

[Ned 156]

The fact is I doubt you know what happened with Gary and Ross, I seriously doubt that no person representing MFC ever contacted Ross personally, I also don't doubt for a second that he said he was staying at the Saints. He wanted Freo, he got Freo, behind his managements back. MFC would have spoken to him, deal with it.

Going by everything that I have observed at the MFC I think your trust that they would have done that is misplaced. Lyon himself said he spoke to Ross's manage - who told him Lyon wad staying put - and didn't speak to Ross personally. It's on the record. Now Ross may have said no to Garry. We may not have been offering what Freo was. But we would've been comforted that we'd checked every option.

But it's water under the bridge. I'll just say Lyon is doing a super job at Freo. No doubt the MFC ship would've taken longer to turn around. I personally just would've had more confidence with a proven coach overseeing it. I think Neeld is doing the right thing and really hope he succeeds.

But this notion that the MFC fully pursued Lyon is dubious at best.

[titan_uranus 22,466]

I thought you'd say that.

I reckon their "top end" is below other sides and their "interchangeables" are also below average when compared to other sides. Pavlich, Sandi, Mundy, Fyfe, Ballantyne and McPharlin are good, but below others in the top tier stakes.

We'll have to agree to differ, but I reckon Lyon's game-plan and coaching style is elite. He's producing a high level of performance out of the talent at his disposal. Which was my point. I accept you rate their list higher than me.

Ah OK now I get it.

Yes, we'll have to agree to differ, as I do think their core is pretty good indeed. But we can both agree that Lyon is a great coach and is doing wonders for that side, regardless.

[BarnDee 286]

ah ffs im sick and bloody well had a belly fulla the r lyon crap , do you think if lyon was here , we be in freo,s shoes , hahahaha get a grip , how many threads do we need on this crap ?

[deejammin' 2,066]

Going by everything that I have observed at the MFC I think your trust that they would have done that is misplaced. Lyon himself said he spoke to Ross's manage - who told him Lyon wad staying put - and didn't speak to Ross personally. It's on the record. Now Ross may have said no to Garry. We may not have been offering what Freo was. But we would've been comforted that we'd checked every option.

But it's water under the bridge. I'll just say Lyon is doing a super job at Freo. No doubt the MFC ship would've taken longer to turn around. I personally just would've had more confidence with a proven coach overseeing it. I think Neeld is doing the right thing and really hope he succeeds.

But this notion that the MFC fully pursued Lyon is dubious at best.

i think we'll agree to disagree, and I've covered this at length in two threads now, but I am confident that my confidence is not misplaced. I have no doubt several people affiliated with ours and other clubs would have spoken to Ross and his management and all been told the same thing, that he was staying at St Kilda. Blindsighting your management is unprecendented, what happened to Harvey was unprecented, the money Freo are paying Ross is unrealistic for Melbourne, but even if we had been able to match it there was no opportunity to do so, Lyon did all this on his own,m behind closed doors, possibly before we were even looking for a coach. If you want to continue to believe people like Mike Sheahan that this club is out to destroy itself by not even trying options then go ahead, I am confident he is a dingbat.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Maybe. But instead we chickened out of talking to a coach with senior experience (for the 2nd time in 4 years), perhaps under the notion that a young coach will more efficiently coach a better team.

[deejammin' 2,066]

Maybe. But instead we chickened out of talking to a coach with senior experience (for the 2nd time in 4 years), perhaps under the notion that a young coach will more efficiently coach a better team.

I was suprised we ended up with Neeld, but there was a field of 4 teams looking for coaches at the end of last year, and all ended up with unproven coaches. Leigh Matthews, Paul Roos, Mick Malthouse, Rodney Eade and Gary Ayres were all available (according to people on this board, I have stated before the reasons I think all of them were unrealistic/impossible/not the right fit) and yet Adelaide, Western Bulldogs and St Kilda all ended up with first year coaches. Weird huh? Must all be so incompetent that they didn't speak to those guys.

edit: Spelling

Edited September 9, 2012 by deejammin'

[Viney12 196]

Delusional thinking.

Lyon has turned the shockers into a SEPTEMBER CLUB.

Lyon has had 2 coaching stints

Both with mature lists he has merely refreshed

Both lists had some very top line talent

He has never built a list from ground up as ours needs

Yes he instills work ethic / cultural changes (much the same as Neeld is trying to achieve), however we have no idea what he is like building a list from scratch

Some of his recruiting has been terrible

Either way, reports are Lyon sounded him out

We didn't get him, Neeld seems on the right track, let's just see how it plays out

[Hannibal 5,814]

Either way, reports are Lyon sounded him out

That's not my understanding, but if you can supply those "reports" it would be appreciated.

[Viney12 196]

That's not my understanding, but if you can supply those "reports" it would be appreciated.

I'm only going on what's been said - and that is that Lyon spoke with Craig Kelly who confirmed he was not for sale - all the meanwhile Lyon went behond Kelly's back and signed with Freo

[Hannibal 5,814]

I thought you had something new to add and were asserting that Lyon spoke directly to Lyon.

But alas you don't and seemingly you're not.

[Nasher 33,080]

At the risk of opening a horrible can of worms probably best left closed, why was it up to Lyon to contact Lyon at all? Didn't we have a functioning board or administration at the time? It's always seemed ridiculous to me that Garry had any involvement at all with this process.

[rpfc 27,531]

At the risk of opening a horrible can of worms probably best left closed, why was it up to Lyon to contact Lyon at all? Didn't we have a functioning board or administration at the time? It's always seemed ridiculous to me that Garry had any involvement at all with this process.

Yeah, but he was helpful when we where trying to poach Clarkson.

[nutbean 8,837]

It could have happened. G Lyon should have pushed harder. Sod protocol.

I am not bagging Neeld. But look at what the Shockers are doing.

R Lyon totally understands the modern game.

Garry to Ross's Managment: "how would Ross like to come to the Dee's"

Ross's Management: " no"

Garry to Ross's Managment: " but really .... Ross to the Dee's ?"

Ross's management: "no"

Garry to Ross's Managment: " come on .... Ross ? Dee's ?"

Ross's management: "oohh.well..when you put it that way...where does he sign ? "

[nutbean 8,837]

Maybe. But instead we chickened out of talking to a coach with senior experience (for the 2nd time in 4 years), perhaps under the notion that a young coach will more efficiently coach a better team.

you know this how ?

[nutbean 8,837]

We have so little idea of what is and isn't said. Who is and isn't being poached.

I recall on footy confidential that Garry did indeed ask Ross Lyon's status and Kelly said he is not moving. Would you suggest that Kelly would not pass this interest onto Ross Lyon?

Conversely it was so strongly rumoured that we were into him, even if we hadn't made an approach and Ross Lyon was half interested (considering his well documented financial plight) you would think that Kelly (or Lyon directly as he did wtih Freo) may have made some phone calls.

Since we all love unfounded and unproveable speculation I'll add mine. When Ross Lyon heard of the Dee's interest he was already hatching the exit to Freo. So his choice was a bucketload of money with Freo or a bucketload with us. I think you can make some assumptions on Ross Lyons thinking without much help from me.

[old55 21,356]

Dollars chatted to Ned - 'nuff said.

nek minnit Ross is at Freo.

[beelzebub 22,225]

you know this how ?

he doesnt

[rolly 149]

Blah blah blah...if we had've got lyon we would've been in the finals and if we had've sacked bailey a year early and got Scott we would've won the flag. Bull§hit bull§hit bull§hit.

Adding to the fact that there are enough current and pressing issues to debate like toothless tigers there is absolutely nothing to be gained from crying over spilt milk or playing coulda shoulda woulda with 20/20hindsight.

2of freos top players this year (clancy pearce and pavlich) were told to lose skin folds and they did making them better players...moloney got the same ultimatum, refused to get down to necassary playing condition and we saw the results.

The coach can only give directions and imo it was the pkaying group who have to put their hands up and take respinsibility.

We havent won a finals game since 2006! Neeld has been here for 2012!

Do you really think Neeld would have drafted cale morton?

Do you really think he would have taken lucas cook in the first round?

Give the man a chance to form his own list. give the man a chance to instill some accountability into the playing group.

So many on here talk about the disgusting and underhanded way in which gws poached scully and yet seem to think it would have been fine for us to do the same thing by going behind st kildas back to poach lyon.

Lyons character has been tarnished at least as bad as scullys and sheedys and the whole gws organisation and how does that lead the mfc into a new culture we can be proud of?

[beelzebub 22,225]

Blah blah blah & Bullsh!t bullsh!t bullsh!t.

Pretty well sums up most of the rubbish being espoused about all the what-ifs and should-ofs.

I would probably agree with you like many that Neeld would have and will build a list with types differing markedly from many of the failures weve had of recent years

Edited September 10, 2012 by belzebub59

[Hannibal 5,814]

you know this how ?

Mike Sheahan is about as popular as Jason Akermanis around here, but not withstanding that he wrote in an article in May:

"I totally accept the story that someone at Melbourne was advised by someone close to Lyon he would be open to the idea of a meeting on the Melbourne job and that nothing came of it because Melbourne declined to act. If so, that's unforgivable."

I think that's about as concrete as you're going to get. Whatever you think of the author he obviously has good connections.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ben-Hur