The list - who goes at the end of the year?

[old dee 23,505]

i would have thought a smart, skilful key position player who knows were to run would be exactly the type of player neeld would be looking for. while he hasnt cracked it for a game yet, he has shown some signs in the vfl. i think people here underestimate the effect injuries have on players, particularly young players. players need the continuity of training and playing to build a fitness base, and build confidence. i have very high hopes for lucas, and i think after a big preseason, he'll be looking to start next season in the forward line for melbourne.

I do not disagree with you but why only a two year deal?

Edited July 27, 2012 by old dee

[Little Richard 6,216]

TP there are a couple of things that have occured to me.

- The people that picked Cook are mostly all gone from the club. the current FD had no hand in choosing him.

Why would they have a commitment to a "project" play from the past FD? From the little info that I have he just does not look like a "neeld type"

- Why was he only given a 2 year deal? or did he only want 2 years? The vast majority of first round picks would usually be offered 3 years deals.

Why only 2 if he was a " project" player ( I hate that word ) surely the longer the better.

The last first round draft pick who wanted only two years never intended to stay.

Just wondering what other people ( with the exception of a couple ) think

You make some good points which I hadn't really considered OD. I just trust that the people who are supposedly knowledgeable about drafting etc had some kind of idea about what they were getting and what they were planning for Cook, even though Prendergast proved pretty average at his job.

I am also very hopeful that Cook wasn't given a 2 year deal on the basis that 'oh we might just use pick 12 on this kid, give him a 2 year deal and get rid of him if he is no good after that time', but as you say the people who took him are no longer there so who knows. I still think he can turn into a decent player based on bits of him I have seen at Casey and I hope we give him another 2 years, but maybe he is another Luke Molan?

[old dee 23,505]

You make some good points which I hadn't really considered OD. I just trust that the people who are supposedly knowledgeable about drafting etc had some kind of idea about what they were getting and what they were planning for Cook, even though Prendergast proved pretty average at his job.

I am also very hopeful that Cook wasn't given a 2 year deal on the basis that 'oh we might just use pick 12 on this kid, give him a 2 year deal and get rid of him if he is no good after that time', but as you say the people who took him are no longer there so who knows. I still think he can turn into a decent player based on bits of him I have seen at Casey and I hope we give him another 2 years, but maybe he is another Luke Molan?

I hope for the best as well, Did he only want 2 years? I have trouble getting my head around why a Nat.Champ. CHF taken at 12 would only have a 2 year deal.

As to your last comment don't even think it. It is to horrible to contemplate.

[leehow 286]

I do not disagree with you but why only a two year deal?

i dont know enough about contracts mate so correct me if im wrong, but i thought two years was the standard contract length for a draftee?

[Little Richard 6,216]

i dont know enough about contracts mate so correct me if im wrong, but i thought two years was the standard contract length for a draftee?

I thought this could have been it too, and instances where a draftee was signed for 3 or 4 years was because of a contract extension at the end of their first year?

[old dee 23,505]

i dont know enough about contracts mate so correct me if im wrong, but i thought two years was the standard contract length for a draftee?

My belief is the min. is 2 years but can be 3 or any length

EG. Scully took a two deal and Trengrove three and they were drafted together.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Yes. Young 196cm all Australian CHF, who has not fully developed yet.

What do you like about him ?

I reckon a key forward needs to have 4 things going for them: talent, size, aggression, and courage in the air.

Talent would seem a given, but there are degrees of everything, i.e. speed, agility, reading the play, ability below the knees, ground level play, hands, quality of leads, etc. I have to say that I don't see any special qualities about Cook, not for a first round pick anyway. The biggest knock on him is his pace and agility, his courage in the air is OK, but no more than average, he's not aggressive and he still needs quite a bit of bulk. He has good footy smarts, can take an OK grab, his ground level play looks quite nice, and he's a good kick, but nothing screams "quality" at me. He may actually make a better defender than forward, but we don't need him there.

The jury is out, but he's definitely a fair way off the pace at the present time. He doesn't look like a first round draft pick to me.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[drdrake 3,124]

Disagree.

Who knows what will happen with Gawn, can't count on him as an option.

Clark is a FORWARD not a ruck, he has to stay there or we have no one to kick to.

Sellar has been killed in the ruck when he's been put there this year.

Fitzy has diabetes, doesn't mean the end of him, but it won't help.

What happened this year when Jamar was out injured? Once again we had Sylvia rucking... Not good.

So what you are saying Spencer must stay, Spencer is a spud. Who knows one of the 6-7 players we add to our list may just be a ruckman. To me we have two main Ruckman in Martin and Jamar, each can hold the No1 ruck role, both in the same team will be a bonus but we have options if one goes down. To me you don't keep a player on your list that just can't play.

[Range Rover 1,935]

So what you are saying Spencer must stay, Spencer is a spud. Who knows one of the 6-7 players we add to our list may just be a ruckman. To me we have two main Ruckman in Martin and Jamar, each can hold the No1 ruck role, both in the same team will be a bonus but we have options if one goes down. To me you don't keep a player on your list that just can't play.

This. Being 201cms is meaningless if you are useless.

[Demonsterative 3,018]

What about a player who cant kick!!! An under 5 yo has a better kicking action!!. Its embarrassing that Spencer is on our list. Seriously the guy looks like a freak show circus guy kicking a football for the first time. Things are bad with our recruiting when the club picks up a guy that kicks like him and doesnt develop his kicking action.

It goes back to the age ole question, recruitment or development. He is not a premiership player, he isnt even a final player

[Deers 202]

I recall Neeld being asked to name his 22 soon after he was appointed. If he couldn't find a suitable player to fill a space, he deliberately left it blank. At the time, he left more than a few holes on the field.

Imagine what it would look like today. The backline has some stability, however there's no-one you could pin down forward of that, aside from Jones and Clark.

[Redleg 40,224]

What do you like about him ?

The jury is out, but he's definitely a fair way off the pace at the present time. He doesn't look like a first round draft pick to me.

I like that he All Australian CHF.

I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development.

I like that he can take a grab.

I like that he is a nice kick for goal.

I like that he is young.

I like that he has decent pace and agility.

I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress.

I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough.

I don't like that he is not aggressive and is not fearless, though that may improve with physical development.

I hope he is kept and am certain he will be and that he improves to become a good AFL player.

I don't care if he doesn't look like a first round pick if he makes it.

[old dee 23,505]

I like that he All Australian CHF.

I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development.

I like that he can take a grab.

I like that he is a nice kick for goal.

I like that he is young.

I like that he has decent pace and agility.

I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress.

I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough.

I don't like that he is not aggressive and is not fearless, though that may improve with physical development.

I hope he is kept and am certain he will be and that he improves to become a good AFL player.

I don't care if he doesn't look like a first round pick if he makes it.

I am worried

[Range Rover 1,935]

I like that he All Australian CHF.

I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development.

I like that he can take a grab.

I like that he is a nice kick for goal.

I like that he is young.

I like that he has decent pace and agility.

I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress.

I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough.

I don't like that he is not aggressive and is not fearless, though that may improve with physical development.

I hope he is kept and am certain he will be and that he improves to become a good AFL player.

I don't care if he doesn't look like a first round pick if he makes it.

Unfortunately, not being agressive or courageous alone outweighs the eight things that you 'liked'.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Range Rover

[stuie 7,374]

So what you are saying Spencer must stay, Spencer is a spud. Who knows one of the 6-7 players we add to our list may just be a ruckman. To me we have two main Ruckman in Martin and Jamar, each can hold the No1 ruck role, both in the same team will be a bonus but we have options if one goes down. To me you don't keep a player on your list that just can't play.

Considering the current options I would think he will stay unless we trade a ruckman in.

You see what happened when Jamar went down and Martin had to ruck the whole game? Now, imagine a season of that should worse case scenario happen.

Harsh to call Spencer a spud given his age and experience, I don't rate him highly at all, but he is ahead of Gawn and Fitzy in the pecking order due to their circumstances.

I'm not sure why some people don't seem to understand what depth is? There's a thing called a "salary cap", which basically means you can't have 40 superstars and you need "depth players" who won't play every game, may even only play very few games, but that's why we have more than 22 players on our list.

In a perfect world, Fitzy wouldn't have hurdles, Gawn would have great knees, and we'd trade in a fantastic backup option for the ruck, but that's not reality.

Reality is Spencer WILL be on our list next year whether we like it or not as he's the safest bet out of what we have.

[stuie 7,374]

This. Being 201cms is meaningless if you are useless.

Might have to start measuring your posts then RR...

[Range Rover 1,935]

Might have to start measuring your posts then RR...

Newsflash for you Stu ... we're sitting on 2-15. A lot of our players are crap.

Not a difficult equation to understand.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I like that he All Australian CHF.

I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development.

I like that he can take a grab.

I like that he is a nice kick for goal.

I like that he is young.

I like that he has decent pace and agility.

I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress.

I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough.

I don't like that he is not aggressive and is not fearless, though that may improve with physical development.

I hope he is kept and am certain he will be and that he improves to become a good AFL player.

I don't care if he doesn't look like a first round pick if he makes it.

"I like that he All Australian CHF."

Plenty of AA juniors don't even get drafted. By itself it bears little weight.

"I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development."

Yes, he's a good height, which was a consideration when drafting him. By itself it means little.

"I like that he can take a grab."

A bare minimum requirement for a first round draft pick that is recruited as a key forward prospect.

"I like that he is a nice kick for goal."

Probably his best asset.

"I like that he is young."

Stretching. Obviously he's a recent draft pick. That said, young and crap is no better than old and crap.

"I like that he has decent pace and agility."

He's slow.

"I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress."

We look for any tiny excuse as a Melbourne supporter.

"I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough."

The same could be said for every player on the list.

Redleg, you were close to joining Biffen as a contender for this week's "head in the sand award" with that overly generous appraisal, but to be fair I did ask you what you liked. Biffen is an automatic weekly nomination.

I'll leave you with a bio of Tony Notte who was a top 20 selection in the 2007 draft. He was a 194.5 cm key forward prospect. His bio actually sounds better than Cook's. He was delisted after two games.

"He is highly rated among the recruiting fraternity, with one believing he has the potential to be the best player from this draft. A lightly built tall forward with excellent hands. Strong both in the air and below his knees. He is quick and agile for a player of his size and capable of playing as a key back. Excellent on the lead and a good reader of the play. He is a graduate of the 2006/07 AIS-AFL Academy and was a member of the squad that toured South Africa in April."

Out of interest Redleg, the AFL Phantom Draft in 2010 had Cook going at 27 and listed him in the 25-35 category. He looks like another "BP" special to me. I'm going to see the Dolphins today so I'll keep a keen eye on Cook and will give an honest appraisal later.

[Axis of Bob 11,219]

Cook's biggest problem is his pace. But there are plenty of key forwards around that don't have great pace. One of them is about to become a millionaire every season for the next 5 years or so. The other one partners him up forward (currently). Another is a superstar of the game at Brisbane.

But they all have 2 things that allow them to be really good players:

- The have a massive workrate. This allows them to get into space one on one with their opponents and lets them participate in a lot of contests.

- They have the size to monster their opponents one on one and bring the ball to ground in a pack situation.

Cook has a huge workrate, despite not really doing a proper preseason. So he has that box ticked.

Cook, to become a good player, needs the size to win one on one contests. He's actually quite good one on one, but he certainly isn't currently a big, imposing specimen.

IMHO, the question on whether he will make it is dependent on how big he ends up. It's still a question that needs to be answered and people will have a different opinion on whether or not he'll ever be a physically big player. He has a lot of other skills that would make him a good player ..... if he can win one on one contests.

But it's a big if. And people will have different opinions on whether that will happen.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,387]

I usually don't like to be harsh on our players but Spencer is a complete spud of a footballer. An ok tap ruckman who is a complete and utter liability with the football.

Did anyone see him last week v Port? Got paid a free kick or mark, went back to asses his next option, ended up handballing straight into the man on the mark.

Sorry but an AFL footballer can't survive if he's unable to execute the most basic of football fundamentals.

[Bossdog 2,002]

I usually don't like to be harsh on our players but Spencer is a complete spud of a footballer. An ok tap ruckman who is a complete and utter liability with the football.

Did anyone see him last week v Port? Got paid a free kick or mark, went back to asses his next option, ended up handballing straight into the man on the mark.

Sorry but an AFL footballer can't survive if he's unable to execute the most basic of football fundamentals.

I don't suppose you saw Sandilands first few games??????....Couldn't mark....couldn't kick...Turned out to be AA ruckman???

[Redleg 40,224]

"I like that he All Australian CHF."

Plenty of AA juniors don't even get drafted. By itself it bears little weight.

"I like that he is big and has plenty of scope for physical development."

Yes, he's a good height, which was a consideration when drafting him. By itself it means little.

"I like that he can take a grab."

A bare minimum requirement for a first round draft pick that is recruited as a key forward prospect.

"I like that he is a nice kick for goal."

Probably his best asset.

"I like that he is young."

Stretching. Obviously he's a recent draft pick. That said, young and crap is no better than old and crap.

"I like that he has decent pace and agility."

He's slow.

"I like that to this point I don't think he has done a full pre season and has been injured which would have hindered his progress."

We look for any tiny excuse as a Melbourne supporter.

"I like that he has a chance to show us he can make it or that he is not good enough."

The same could be said for every player on the list.

Redleg, you were close to joining Biffen as a contender for this week's "head in the sand award" with that overly generous appraisal, but to be fair I did ask you what you liked. Biffen is an automatic weekly nomination.

I'll leave you with a bio of Tony Notte who was a top 20 selection in the 2007 draft. He was a 194.5 cm key forward prospect. His bio actually sounds better than Cook's. He was delisted after two games.

"He is highly rated among the recruiting fraternity, with one believing he has the potential to be the best player from this draft. A lightly built tall forward with excellent hands. Strong both in the air and below his knees. He is quick and agile for a player of his size and capable of playing as a key back. Excellent on the lead and a good reader of the play. He is a graduate of the 2006/07 AIS-AFL Academy and was a member of the squad that toured South Africa in April."

Out of interest Redleg, the AFL Phantom Draft in 2010 had Cook going at 27 and listed him in the 25-35 category. He looks like another "BP" special to me. I'm going to see the Dolphins today so I'll keep a keen eye on Cook and will give an honest appraisal later.

I am going to the Dees game but am taping Casey and will have a look later today or tonight. Look forward to your appraisal. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he will be the next Wayne Carey, he may in fact be the next Molan, but my main point is not to get rid of him before we really know whether he can make it.

I recall as an example North dumping Mooney some years back as they said he was not good enough and bingo. I also recall many Demonlanders calling for Jones' delisting a couple of years ago and I was one of several who argued for his retention. He will win our B & F this year.

Cook may be a dud, all I am saying is there are others who can go, (who have had their chances) first and then in a year or so we can assess his progress, if any.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Redleg

[DeeZee 7,296]

I think there are groups of plays of which one or two must go.

Group one .. Dunn, bate,petterd Morton...one or two of these must go

Group two... Moloney, couch,magner, green,davey, Macdonald...probably one of these must go

Group three... Jetta,Bennell,Lawrence.. One must go

Group four... Williams, cook,Davis,Evans,..one must go.

Leaves us 5 spots to draft or trade.

[stuie 7,374]

I think there are groups of plays of which one or two must go.

Group one .. Dunn, bate,petterd Morton...one or two of these must go

Group two... Moloney, couch,magner, green,davey, Macdonald...probably one of these must go

Group three... Jetta,Bennell,Lawrence.. One must go

Group four... Williams, cook,Davis,Evans,..one must go.

Leaves us 5 spots to draft or trade.

Reckon this is pretty close, although I would say 3 out of that first group should go.

[stuie 7,374]

Newsflash for you Stu ... we're sitting on 2-15. A lot of our players are crap.

Not a difficult equation to understand.

Newsflash RR... You can't get rid of ALL the players and bringing in a 100% new list...

Some of us like to wallow in a combination of depression ("uggghhh our players are all so crap..") and dreaming ("oh we'll get Viney, Boak, Caddy, Cloke, and 17 gun mids from the super draft"), and some of us deal in reality, and reality is as ordinary as Spencer is, he will most probably be on our list next year due to lack of options.

Everyone has their opinions on the players, but if you've been paying attention AT ALL you would have noticed that Neeld rates Spencer ahead of the other backup options at the moment, and as important as you think your opinions are, his is what matters.