Toumpas v Stringer v Wines

[Macca 17,033]

It could be argued that it's harder to excel at SANFL level (playing against men) than it is playing against other juniors in an under age comp.

Hogan had quite a good year at VFL level but could have quite easily gone absolute gangbusters if he'd played another year at TAC level.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

Expand on the attitude comment please

Toumpas has always been Reactive...He won't change that

Stringer & Wines are Proactive...They make things happen

[dee-luded 2,959]

Yeah, there are some that equate the failure of Toumpas and other kids to a judgment on the SANFL itself - it's not that simple.

getting ahead of yourself, he's not finished yet... he is currently only 21Yrs 7mths. still in his 3rd season... he has started to play AFL, but currently has been found to be wanting.. not unusual.. except in todays buy it off the shelf culture.

Toumpas is a build it sort, who needs to grow into the game, & into his self belief. They take longer then 2.5 seasons of AFL.

Edited August 28, 2015 by dee-luded

[Macca 17,033]

getting ahead of yourself, he's not finished yet... he is currently only 21Yrs 7mths. still in his 3rd season... he has started to play AFL, but currently has been found to be wanting.. not unusual.. except in todays buy it off the shelf culture.

Toumpas is a build it sort, who needs to grow into the game, & into his self belief. They take longer then 2.5 seasons of AFL.

I'd agree it does take longer for some players these days given the nature of how the sport is played as compared to a dozen years ago.

As a sort of a comparison, Sylvia may well have had a much better career if he'd played his footy in the 70's, 80's or 90's. Positional one-on-one footy suited him to a tee. The faults he had might have been glossed over if he could have consistently beaten his man on matchdays.

Back to Jimmy ... it's looking quite clear that he isn't going to be a gun footballer and A grade seems a pipe dream really ... however, what if he could attain the ability of a C+ to B grade player by the end of 2017? Would we take that?

Say, along the lines of Dunn or Jetta (last year) ... it doesn't have to be A grade or bust. Nor should it ever be regardless of how a player is attained.

Can't have surgery to two hips. We only have one.

Ha ha.

I think he should get a two year extension, I think he can still make it, wether he does is another matter.

I tend to agree but maybe a 1 year deal is also an option. The club may decide to trade him if the right offer came along though. There's plenty that I'd rule a line through before Jimmy though. There's at least a possible upside that wouldn't cost the club a lot in salary cap space.

Many others have well and truly max'd out.

[McQueen 17,867]

I'd like to see the club persist with Toump. I said earlier in the thread that guys like Toumpas should be the perfect development projects for our substantial FD related group of coaches.

On the other side of the coin is the fact we drafted a bloke only two years older from a lower league who loves the rough stuff and made an immeadite impact.

I think there will be ample places opened up on the list through other delistings, trades and FA's without having to move Toumpas. His character cannot be questioned, his skills are pretty good and he's only 21 years of age.

[rjay 25,088]

Toumpas has always been Reactive...He won't change that

Stringer & Wines are Proactive...They make things happen

No he wasn't 'SWYL', but now he seems to think too much rather than play. Fear (of making a mistake) is guiding him & not instinct.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

No he wasn't 'SWYL', but now he seems to think too much rather than play. Fear (of making a mistake) is guiding him & not instinct.

That is still a Reactive instinct...

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

I'd like to see the club persist with Toump. I said earlier in the thread that guys like Toumpas should be the perfect development projects for our substantial FD related group of coaches.

On the other side of the coin is the fact we drafted a bloke only two years older from a lower league who loves the rough stuff and made an immeadite impact.

I think there will be ample places opened up on the list through other delistings, trades and FA's without having to move Toumpas. His character cannot be questioned, his skills are pretty good and he's only 21 years of age.

I don't think we have the luxury or the time to develop someone who is so far back now. Like you alluded to would be so much easier to just wipe the hands of him and find another vanders.

There's a lesson to be learned here; there are footballers and there are skilful kids. Find the footballers, find the mongrels!

[rjay 25,088]

That is still a Reactive instinct...

What I'm saying is that this is not how he used to play....

You made the comment that he has always played this way, he hasn't.

He needs to revert back if he can.

[Return to Glory 8,448]

Toumpas has always been Reactive...He won't change that

Stringer & Wines are Proactive...They make things happen

Not sure I agree with you on that one SWYL. Prior to being drafted he took the game on. You only have to look at old clips. I do agree that he's miles away from that now. I'd also argue that this is the type of issue that we brought Roos in for in the first place. Young, talented footballer but makes poor decisions with ball in hand.

[dee-luded 2,959]

No he wasn't 'SWYL', but now he seems to think too much rather than play. Fear (of making a mistake) is guiding him & not instinct.

& fear once established in the mind, takes a little bit to get over; maturity & learning the right stuff can help change this attitude of fear.... its only a roadblock to the scared but positive.

either you learn to get/hop over it, Or go around it, either way you get past it. if your determined to.

Edited August 28, 2015 by dee-luded

[DemonOX 8,800]

Who cares we choose T and look how that's turning out.

Edited August 28, 2015 by DemonOX

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

What I'm saying is that this is not how he used to play....

You made the comment that he has always played this way, he hasn't.

He needs to revert back if he can.

When has Toumpas taken an AFL game on?

[rjay 25,088]

When has Toumpas taken an AFL game on?

Sometimes you are as bad as 'stuie' with this stuff. I'm talking about him pre AFL as you well know.

I think his biggest problem coming into AFL is he fears making mistakes, when playing as a junior and in the SANFL he just played footy. He was making progress this year up to the Saints game until Montagna kicked that final goal and it was game over for him. I thought at the time this would be a make or break, unfortunately he broke.

Can he be fixed? Well, it's a big hurdle and I'm not sure he can get over it.

[Gator 17,454]

I've been shocked by how bad Toumpas is. He looked really solid in junior footy. He looked composed with skill. AT AFL level he looks the complete opposite. He's terrible in contests.

Is he such a head case or confidence player that he could still come good, or is he just one of those good juniors who can't cut it ? I don't know and don't much care. I'd get rid of him.

If he burns us so be it. I'm so sick of keeping crap players for an eternity.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

Sometimes you are as bad as 'stuie' with this stuff. I'm talking about him pre AFL as you well know.

I think his biggest problem coming into AFL is he fears making mistakes, when playing as a junior and in the SANFL he just played footy. He was making progress this year up to the Saints game until Montagna kicked that final goal and it was game over for him. I thought at the time this would be a make or break, unfortunately he broke.

Can he be fixed? Well, it's a big hurdle and I'm not sure he can get over it.

I am not intersted in what he did in the SANFL

That is ancient history

Toump has had numerous chances to show something and he has failed each time

Harsh but true.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

"Cute? It's not like we did a Gysberts or a Cook and picked some unknown. Toumpas was rated by many to be better than Wines.

If we'd taken Wines, we'd still be a bottom 6 side right now, and you'd be saying 'why would we take two identical players when we are crying out for uncontested possessions and outside run? How stupid of Melbourne'"

I doubt it, Wines is a better midfielder than any we have by a mile, so saying we would be still be bottom six is speculation. Regarding Jimmy Toumpas, he may well have been rated better by many but not me. I always wanted Wines. Main point being how the hell could we have gambled so much by picking a bloke who had major surgery to not one but two hips??

Amazing, did we not think that this might lead to one of his main problems ( which seemed to be a strength) of now lacking pace?

Astounding stuff from our recruiters!

If you think that one player (Wines) is the difference between us being bottom 6 and top 6 then you have no idea what's wrong with this club and you're one of those people who is too fixated on list changes and nowhere near enough on internal development.

We are not going to go anywhere unless the leaders on our list change their attitudes and our list as a whole improves. Single players on their own are not, and won't be, the messiah.

Just because you thought Wines was the better player doesn't mean he was the right pick, nor does it mean other people were wrong for thinking Toumpas was the better player. The evidence to that point allowed either option. So it wasn't a 'gamble' to take Toumpas, hips or no hips.

At any rate, if we'd taken Wines, brought him into our toxic environment, there is every chance he would not be the same player he is now.

But we'd be looking at what Toumpas was doing at another club and thinking how lucky we were to dodge that bullet.

Of course, this assumes Toumpas would have failed at every club, rather than just failing at this club.

We'll never know of course, but I'm confident that a substantial reason why Toumpas hasn't made it is the fact that he came to Melbourne. To put it another way, if he'd gone to Hawthorn instead, the odds are he'd be better now than spending that same time at Melbourne.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I am not intersted in what he did in the SANFL

That is ancient history

Toump has had numerous chances to show something and he has failed each time

Harsh but true.

you have so much pent up anger inside you wyl,you look for soft easy targets to take it out on, & it shows as your impatience & intolerance.

This kid is still in development phase & he has more in him yet, but he has some roadblocks to learn how to cope with. This part I hope you can understand.

[Hulkamania Brother 52]

didnt realise we missed on stringer... way to make me even more down.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

you have so much pent up anger inside you wyl,you look for soft easy targets to take it out on, & it shows as your impatience & intolerance.

This kid is still in development phase & he has more in him yet, but he has some roadblocks to learn how to cope with. This part I hope you can understand.

He can sort out his roadblocks somewhere else

The MFC is too damaged. We need players ready to fire. Young kids need to see wins otherwise they follow another team.

[Little Richard 6,265]

you have so much pent up anger inside you wyl,you look for soft easy targets to take it out on, & it shows as your impatience & intolerance.

This kid is still in development phase & he has more in him yet, but he has some roadblocks to learn how to cope with. This part I hope you can understand.

I don't think that in the current AFL system, and especially at our club, a midfielder can take so long to (at least) garner a regular spot in the 22. I held high hopes for Jimmy but the fact is that up until this point, he's been a bust.

Maybe he'll magically turn it around next season if he's still with us. But I have no reason to believe that he will, based on what he's shown so far.

[McQueen 17,867]

I don't think we have the luxury or the time to develop someone who is so far back now. Like you alluded to would be so much easier to just wipe the hands of him and find another vanders.

There's a lesson to be learned here; there are footballers and there are skilful kids. Find the footballers, find the mongrels!

If only the lesson was so easy.

Hawthorn have both skills and mongrel. They drafted skilful players and developed their unsociable football.

MFC need to draft skilled players and have started doing that. Roos contested football is not so unique anymore as nearly every other club places huge emphasis on the contest. Getting the footy out is only part of the equation. Having the skilled players to use it efficiently is becoming more and more important the way the game is currently evolving.

We need to be careful and not over compensate on grunt mids which can win the ball but then butcher it.

Developing the mongrel is far more achievable than improving a players skill set.

Edited August 29, 2015 by McQueen

[olisik 4,060]

Our club should invest in a club phychologist for players like ToumpAs. Could be the difference

[Little Richard 6,265]

If only the lesson was so easy.

Hawthorn have both skills and mongrel. They drafted skilful players and developed their unsociable football.

MFC need to draft skilled players and have started doing that. Roos contested football is not so unique anymore as nearly every other club places huge emphasis on the contest. Getting the footy out is only part of the equation. Having the skilled players to use it efficiently is becoming more and more important the way is currently evolving.

We need to be careful and not over compensate on grunt mids which can win the ball but then butcher it.

Developing the mongrel is far more achievable than improving a players skill set.

In this case, I don't think it's much of a lesson at all. Tounpas was playing and dominating senior footy as an 17/18 year old, and he never had any issues with toughness. This was much more than other draftees of his year were doing. It just seems to me a case of him not being able to step up to the highest level - how do you predict that?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Of course, this assumes Toumpas would have failed at every club, rather than just failing at this club.

I'd put the house on it.