Jack Watts

[rpfc 28,736]

That was old years ago.

Freak goes to as many games as anyone on this site and gives confronting opinions.

Give it a rest.

Freak is consistently wrong about so much that I feel that a PSA, from time to time, is necessary to let people know that.

I have time for all people on this site, but if you give three line 'arguments' without anything to back it up, and have a history of saying things that turn out to be flagrantly wrong (Morton buying property on the Gold Coast anyone?) without acknowledging your mistake - you are going to be treated as a joke by some people on a public forum.

Edited March 27, 2012 by rpfc

[dpositive 1,672]

im at the point now where I would be happy to trade him. He has done nothing special in 3 years, not even any glimpses to be honest. I reckon I would do something good on a footy field if I was given 30-40 games. He is just dropping in value at each time he squibs a contest or doesn't crash a pack.

I thought this may have been a "controversial" "tongue in cheek" post until I read responses.

I reckon you might do something good on a footy field if you were given 30-40 games but i wonder if you crashed a pack and didnt squib wehther youd get that many games, Of course I dont know what condition your body is in but if you reckon you are up to it perhaps you should be the number one draft pick.

As to his value dropping I think it is only gauged if he was on the market and I do not want to see that when we have some structures and strategies in place to utilise his abilities and add to our success.

There are too many examples already given by many to see that players with ability will impact

I believe even though you have not seen anything special in 3 years his athleticism and skill is still recognised by most (including opposition teams who found it necessary to place their better player/s on him) that he offers plenty to our side.

I just hope that you are proved to be wrong, only time will tell.

I do think that the concentartion on Watts is unfortunate as I dont believe he was the only high draft pick who has not been as successful as lower picks. I still think its about the team and its about support.

Give it to Jack and the team while he is part of it.

GO DEES

[jabberwocky 2,301]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/melbourne-forward-jack-watts-waits-for-round-1-call-up/story-e6frf9jf-1226312279888

[binman 43,717]

http://www.heraldsun...f-1226312279888

Interesting. I have said before i am in no doubt that Watts is definitely in our best 22 (best 10 IMO - as borne out by finishing 9th in last years Bluey) and that i would be surprised if the FD don't share that view.

He'll play Sat, no doubt, so it makes me wonder what is behind Neeld's public ambivalence about his selection (now and previously). I reckon Neeld is a bit of a mind game player (despite his "down the line" persona) and wonder if he is a) trying to hose down public and media expectations of JW (eg "he's in the mix like everyone else, he's a 21 year old 40 gamer nothing else" etc etc) and keeping Jack on his toes and trying to fire him up (eg make him feel he is always playing for his spot, which i suppose is no bad thing).

Personally i'd love for Neeld to come out and back JW to the hilt but i assume Neeld believes this is the best way to get JW to realise his potential (which of course is his role and by all accounts one of his strengths)

Edited March 28, 2012 by binman

[Mac7 309]

im at the point now where I would be happy to trade him. He has done nothing special in 3 years, not even any glimpses to be honest. I reckon I would do something good on a footy field if I was given 30-40 games. He is just dropping in value at each time he squibs a contest or doesn't crash a pack.

Trying to work out if this is a joke or not?

You don't honestly buy into what the media say that much do you!?!?

[rjay 25,063]

At the end of the day, if he isn't better than Naitanui then we have failed right? People, can't use the excuse of 'oh, but we needed a Key forward' because Watts will never be that key forward. We had the opportunity of picking up Naitanui and we chose not to, when I, and many other football followers knew that this was going to be a mistake. And Naitanui is streets ahead of Watts and is already a fantastic player.

The only thing Nic is streets ahead of Jack in is doing the spectacular and looking good in dreads. Roos was a little critical (tip toed around it a bit) of his work rate the other night as a reason why he doesn't pick up the stats he should, the same criticism of Watts has nearly brought on a Royal Commission. Both are young players, Watts the younger without the experience of Cox, Kerr, and co. around him. Lets judge 10 years out.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I do think that the concentartion on Watts is unfortunate as I dont believe he was the only high draft pick who has not been as successful as lower picks. I still think its about the team and its about support.

Give it to Jack and the team while he is part of it.

Has there been a player drafted in history with so much scrutiny ? Tambling copped a lot; Hodge had the spotlight early days, as did Goddard; and to a lesser extent Buddy and even Riewoldt. Peake flying in on a helicopter for the Cats meant he put a target on his back in the 80's; Diamond Jim had fanfare, but couldn't deliver; Pitura became a dud when he shifted teams; and Templeton couldn't get over injuries at Melbourne post Footscray. But there's no doubt that Watts gets an extraordinary amount of publicity and focus. When one considers that Gumbleton was a number 2 draft pick and hasn't fired a shot due to injury and Hansen a number 3 pick, who's delivered little, the attention Watts receives is out of proportion. We sort of know why to an extent, i.e. Queen's Birthday and the way we pumped up his debut, pick one ahead of Naitanui, the private school boy stuff, and the mere fact that these days there's more journalists covering football than politics.

Freak is way off the chart saying that he's shown nothing. How many 196cms have his ability below their knees, have his agility, have his kicking skills off both sides, and make some of the smart decisions he does ? If you can't see his talent you're either blinded by bias, can't detect ability, or are so disappointed that he's not what you wanted from a key position player that you won't acknowledge his skill sets.

Having said that, I'm terribly disappointed in the way he plays. I'm terribly disappointed that entering his 4th year he was playing wing in the VFL when he was drafted as a key forward and at pick one no less. And it does matter. I can't comprehend why so many supporters are satisfied by his development and excited by a 20 possession outside game at Casey. They seem to shrug their shoulders at what's transpired, or are just so supportive of all things Melbourne they wouldn't hear a bad word about John Hopoate if he wore red and blue. Maybe they just don't understand that Watts' lack of physicality, lack of urgency, and lack of contested ball winning ability is why the coach is scratching his head about picking him for round one, as per today's HS. Can Watts improve these areas ? Sure, but right now some parts of his game aren't AFL standard. So while some salivate at a few nice things at VFL level there are reasons why he's a border-line selection.

I judge every footballer on their ability to contribute and influence finals. The pressure in finals is elevated to an extraordinary level. I don't rate Davey and would never factor him in any plans for the future. I'd play him in some H&A, but he won't stand up and put his nose over the ball in a final. Coaches have to have non-negotiables and right now Watts is struggling with the intensity at NAB level, let alone a final. Neeld won't put up with players that don't put their body on the line. He won't put up with half-hearted one arm marking attempts. He won't put up with players not committing to contests they could make.

I support every player when I'm at the ground, in between my barely controllable rage, but on a footy forum I'll give a warts and all opinion on how I see it. Most won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't pick on a player because I don't like them. I pick on a player because they can and need to deliver far more to improve my footy club. Their career will be over before they know it. This is Watts' 4th year and the penny needs to drop. Don't give me this "he's just turned 21 this week" tripe. Excuse after excuse isn't going to be Jack's friend.

Let's look at the output of other players as 21 year olds: Chris Grant - 71 goals, Lloyd - 87, Richo - 91, Brereton kicked 58 as a 20 year old, Dunstall - 77, Salmon kicked 65 at 19, Franklin - 113, Lockett - 117, Jack Riewoldt - 78, Nick Riewoldt - 67. But it's not just the output of goals I'm interested in, it's how they played. It's how they competed. It's their appetite for the contest. It's how they demanded the ball.

The easiest thing in the world is to make excuses for Watts. The facts are he needs to develop his game and do plenty of things that don't come naturally for him to be the player he could be. And for those that think he could be an elite mid I disagree. Elite mids win tough contested footy. They don't have to be inside mids, or clearance specialists, but they have their nose over the footy in packs. Watts will never be an elite mid. But I don't think he needs to be. In fact, I don't want him to be. How about he become a dangerous, fast, clever 196cm tall marking forward who's a dead eye dick ? Just learn more about the game, improve your work-rate and put your body on the line.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

I can't comprehend why so many supporters are satisfied by his development and excited by a 20 possession outside game at Casey. They seem to shrug their shoulders at what's transpired, or are just so supportive of all things Melbourne they wouldn't hear a bad word about John Hopoate if he wore red and blue.

One of my ongoing frustrations is the way so many on here view things in simple black and white. I've gone on record here as saying that Jack Watts is the single most important player on our list in terms of our premiership jigsaw. I'm massively disappointed with his inability (so far) to show that he has the necessary mongrel to split a pack open or the willingness to compete more ferociously in one on one contests. But I fail to see how repeatedly lamenting his flaws on a football forum is going to help the situation and more importantly make Jack a more traditional bash and crash CHF. If you'd been questioning his drafting prior to draft day, I think many on here would be more sympathetic to your position. Jack may not be the player many of us were hoping for but he still displays the talent, speed, skills and athleticism that had all recruiting departments salivating. How that translates to AFL level and indeed finals footy remains to be seen but until his development is more than half complete, the supporter in me and many people on this forum will back him in. That doesn't mean we don't cringe when we see him take a short step or yell in frustration when he seemingly doesn't will himself to get to a marking contest. There is a middle position. There is some grey between your assessment of Jack and the overly optimistic defence of his ability that you continue to allude to.

[rjay 25,063]

I

Let's look at the output of other players as 21 year olds: Chris Grant - 71 goals, Lloyd - 87, Richo - 91, Brereton kicked 58 as a 20 year old, Dunstall - 77, Salmon kicked 65 at 19, Franklin - 113, Lockett - 117, Jack Riewoldt - 78, Nick Riewoldt - 67. But it's not just the output of goals I'm interested in, it's how they played. It's how they competed. It's their appetite for the contest. It's how they demanded the ball.

How many games played?

[dpositive 1,672]

B-H

I am certainly not disagreeing with you, and in fact agree wholeheartedly

I think someone else said it may be easier to teach him those aspects you mentioned than to teach his skills to others.

I also hope to see his influence under finals conditions andI think his and others skills will get us there.

[The Chazz 4,077]

BH - Watts has only turned 21. If he comes out and kicks 40 goals this season, he will be up to a career total of 73. He will still be 21 at the end of the year. Not an excuse, just an observation.

All this talk about entering his 4th season is 100% correct. Just as the comment that he has played 2 1/2 seasons is 100% correct also.

The final thing, while you are not juicing up over his Casey form, what is the bloke supposed to do? He was out of form in the NAB Cup, was told to go back to Casey for a game, came out and had 25-odd disposals and kicked 2 goals. If that were during the normal home and away season, woud it warrant a recall to the seniors? Maybe, or maybe the coach wants him to work on his weaknesses whilst back there. You believe he didn't show great signs of improvement in those areas, so maybe Neeld will feel the same. However, what instructions was he given? Do you know? Sure, he was drafted as a key forward, but do you think Jack started on the wing off his own accord? Maybe the game tha the played on Saturday night was nearly perfectly executed under the instructions he was given. Neeld has come out in the press saying that he is trying to convince himself that he should pick Jack, is this 100% honest? Is it mind games? Who knows? Not me, not you.

The above aren't excuses.

[nutbean 8,838]

Another two cents worth - why are we consigning a player at the tender age 21 to "he will never be this or be that".

Just finished watching 94 Melb vs Collingwood - a year younger David Neitz who did mature early and won AA was running around CHB - i would say floating around full back /chb more like it. He looked really great but after watching the way he played I will make the pronouncement that Neita will never make a crash and bash footballer ...wait a second.....

Matthew Richardson who was an audacious talent went from a spring heeled forward who would jump over everything with not much physicality or appetite for the ground contest to become quite solid and jumping into all contests with gusto, to becoming a gorilla, to slimming off and going back to the wing in his last season.

My take on Jack - year one wasted, year two slow progress, year three visible and noticeable improvement. I want to see more progression than year three this year. Thats pretty simple.

What style of footballer will he be ? Today ? this year ? or in 3 years ? good luck with that.

[rpfc 28,736]

Has there been a player drafted in history with so much scrutiny ?

The easiest thing in the world is to make excuses for Watts. The facts are he needs to develop his game and do plenty of things that don't come naturally for him to be the player he could be. And for those that think he could be an elite mid I disagree. Elite mids win tough contested footy. They don't have to be inside mids, or clearance specialists, but they have their nose over the footy in packs. Watts will never be an elite mid. But I don't think he needs to be. In fact, I don't want him to be. How about he become a dangerous, fast, clever 196cm tall marking forward who's a dead eye dick ? Just learn more about the game, improve your work-rate and put your body on the line.

Well reasoned post.

My issue with the attention is the attention.

If Melbourne is to improve in 2012 it will not be because of Jack Watts, hell, he improved markedly in the din that was 2011.

We should be holding Green and Davey to the fire that is reducing Watts' feet to embers. Moloney should be more consistent.

And talking about NAB Cup form is a waste of time. Melbourne beat Collingwood, Carlton lost all matches, it means nothing. Magner, a VFL star, was the best player on the ground in two matches.

Bring on the real stuff and judge that, it'll be here in 4 days.

I won't judge Jack Watts in 2012 before 2012 starts.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Interesting. I have said before i am in no doubt that Watts is definitely in our best 22 (best 10 IMO - as borne out by finishing 9th in last years Bluey) and that i would be surprised if the FD don't share that view.

He'll play Sat, no doubt, so it makes me wonder what is behind Neeld's public ambivalence about his selection (now and previously). I reckon Neeld is a bit of a mind game player (despite his "down the line" persona) and wonder if he is a) trying to hose down public and media expectations of JW (eg "he's in the mix like everyone else, he's a 21 year old 40 gamer nothing else" etc etc) and keeping Jack on his toes and trying to fire him up (eg make him feel he is always playing for his spot, which i suppose is no bad thing).

Personally i'd love for Neeld to come out and back JW to the hilt but i assume Neeld believes this is the best way to get JW to realise his potential (which of course is his role and by all accounts one of his strengths)

I reckon he will be the sub.

[Mac7 309]

Let's look at the output of other players as 21 year olds: Chris Grant - 71 goals, Lloyd - 87, Richo - 91, Brereton kicked 58 as a 20 year old, Dunstall - 77, Salmon kicked 65 at 19, Franklin - 113, Lockett - 117, Jack Riewoldt - 78, Nick Riewoldt - 67.

But Watts hasn't played his year as a 21 year old yet. That is this year!

Therefore let’s look at current players goal output in their third season:

Jack Riewoldt: 32

Nick Riewoldt: 30

Franklin: 73

Cloke: 39

Hurley: 27

Hawkins: 34

J. Brown 14

Pavlich: 10

Apart from Franklin, nothing exactly earth shattering there!

I somehow don't remember 2000 articles being written on how rubbish these guys were though...

Edited March 28, 2012 by Mac7

[nutbean 8,838]

One more - Even though we think JW is meant to be a key forward I would compare him today** to Paul Roos. He played at a time when key position at 188cm was workable.

He started life as a very tall winger with the same perceived appetite for the contest as many are saying JW has and ended up as fine CHB earning himself 4 AA's. He never developed the taste for crash and bash but was a excellent footballer none the less.

(Today** - as per my previous post I don't subscribe to the view that what Jack Watts is today is what he will be in 3 years time)

[nutbean 8,838]

I somehow don't remember 2000 articles being written on how rubbish these guys were though...

They did about Hawkins and continued to until the final series last year.

[binman 43,717]

But Watts hasn't played his year as a 21 year old yet. That is this year!

Therefore let’s look at current players goal output in their third season:

Jack Riewoldt: 32

Nick Riewoldt: 30

Franklin: 73

Cloke: 39

Hurley: 27

Hawkins: 34

J. Brown 14

Pavlich: 10

Apart from Franklin, nothing exactly earth shattering there!

I somehow don't remember 2000 articles being written on how rubbish these guys were though...

Pavlich only got got 10 goals in his season as 20 year old and Brown only 14! Hacks both of them.

But seriously excellent post and one to keep in mind when getting a handle on where Watts is at. Important also to remember that whilst this is his fourth season he has only really had three proper full pre seasons. 2-3 more pre-sasons and he will put on some serious muscle.

I hadn't thought of a Pavlich comparison but actually i could see Watts becoming a very similar player. Up forward a bit, down back when needed and a run on the ball every now and then. AA. Some fans would still be unhappy with this though i suppose

Edited March 28, 2012 by binman

[nutbean 8,838]

^{I'm almost convinced that Scully is going.}

[old dee 23,870]

^{I'm almost convinced that Scully is going.}

Love it nutbean

[Hannibal 5,814]

But Watts hasn't played his year as a 21 year old yet. That is this year!

True, but a couple of things ...

Already some supporters are making the excuse that he's only 21, so I guess they have low expectations for this year. By showing the stats of other 21 year olds I'm endeavouring to show that there's no reason that Jack, as a 21 year old, shouldn't make a big impact this season. I'm focusing on 2012, not 2011.

Also, my comments refer to how he plays, not so much his stats. Watts could have a 4 goal game, but it won't have meant he's played well if they've been soft goals. We've all seen games where someone is on the end of cheap goals. It's how Watts competes, his work-rate, his contested marking attempts, etc, tackling, robustness, that concerns me, not his goal tally to date.

You may say, "well at least let him play a game in 2012 before you ridicule him". Fair comment, but I can only report what I see in the intra-club, what I see in the NAB, and what I see at Casey. In every hit-out this year I've left disappointed. Not so much with his 'outside' game at Casey, as that's not his fault, but the fact that he was playing wing and that he's struggling for a game in his 4th year.

But having seen quite a bit of the pre-season I understand why.

[rpfc 28,736]

I'm focusing on 2012, not 2011.

But having seen quite a bit of the pre-season I understand why.

The Toyota AFL Premiership Season is 2012.

Nothing else matters.

We have written quite a bit before judgement should be made, haven't we?

[Hannibal 5,814]

But I fail to see how repeatedly lamenting his flaws on a football forum is going to help the situation and more importantly make Jack a more traditional bash and crash CHF. If you'd been questioning his drafting prior to draft day, I think many on here would be more sympathetic to your position. Jack may not be the player many of us were hoping for but he still displays the talent, speed, skills and athleticism that had all recruiting departments salivating. How that translates to AFL level and indeed finals footy remains to be seen but until his development is more than half complete, the supporter in me and many people on this forum will back him in. That doesn't mean we don't cringe when we see him take a short step or yell in frustration when he seemingly doesn't will himself to get to a marking contest. There is a middle position. There is some grey between your assessment of Jack and the overly optimistic defence of his ability that you continue to allude to.

It's a chat forum isn't it ?

Btw, can we move on from "crash and bash" CHF talk ? He was never going to be and never will be that type of player. That doesn't mean he can't improve his physicality immeasurably. You may not be crash and bash, but it doesn't mean you can't put your body on the line or compete 100% at every contest. He's still young and he has time to improve, but most star key forwards of the game showed a lot in their 4th year. A hell of a lot. In fact, it's far harder to list ones that did nothing at 21. If you've been a star key forward of the game you were starting to dominate games at 21, not just play a nice one here or there. Do some research.

You say there's "grey" between my assessment and others. Ok, what part of my assessment do you disagree with ?

Because I was in favour of drafting him at pick one means nothing. His talent was evident, but no-one knows what's between the ears of a player, what drives them, or how they'll translate their natural ability once at AFL level. To say that "you originally supported his drafting, so you now have less credibility when discussing him over 3 years on" is a nonsense. If anything, it shows that I don't guild the lily in light of previous positions.

I'll back the guy because I still reckon the penny will drop, but 2012 is a pivotal year for him.

[old55 23,687]

I'll back the guy because I still reckon the penny will drop, but 2012 is a pivotal year for him.

And when it does - look out.

There are reasons, not excuses, for why it hasn't yet and why he may be different from other 21yo KPFs - his personality and general level of maturity, PS rather than TAC Cup, the way MFC has operated in the past 3 years. He's smarter than most KPFs - there's every chance he'll get it, given the opportunity and direction.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

You say there's "grey" between my assessment and others. Ok, what part of my assessment do you disagree with ?

I actually suggested that there's grey between your assessment and the simplistic view that the alternative to yourself is the happy clapping, strawberry fields Demonland supporter. I'm a debating coach and the first thing I tell my debaters is to take an extreme stance and to distance yourself from the opposition as much as you can. That's exactly what you're doing. That's what makes you a good debater but it doesn't necessarily mean you're accurately summarizing the views of people here. You're suggesting that Watts has critical issues in his game and that the alternative view is that he doesn't and he'll be right in the end. It's not that simple as you've shown yourself by suggesting with a softened view that you believe that the penny will drop and I've shown by acknowledging that I'm disappointed with his unwillingness to assert himself in contested situations. There's your grey.

I think most on here share your concerns. Just because one supporter gets a little excited and makes a Brownlow comparison (which I think was unfairly criticized and taken out of context) after his Casey performance doesn't mean that the vast majority of us are putting our heads in the sand and failing to see his flaws.

When you make statements like, "I know that 26 disposals and a couple of goals from a wing/half forward will excite nearly every Melbourne supporter", you're setting this up in a Rono-style us versus them argument - the chest beating realists versus the rose-coloured glasses-wearing optimists.

You're right, it is a chat forum and of course you're entitled to share a differing view. I just think you regularly choose to stereotype and pigeon-hole those with a very slightly different view to your own to create the impression that there is a huge chasm between you and everyone else.

I've always loved reading your contributions and know that you've spent an enormous amount of time defending Jack over his first two and half season over on bigfooty. You've given opposition supporters heaps and Jack hasn't always backed you up and I completely understand your disappointment. I certainly hope, when you suggest that the penny will drop that you're right. The alternative, I'm afraid, is another decade of mediocrity.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Goodvibes