The List Management Thread

[Inner Demon 1]

More threads than not seem to eventually wind up debating the delistings at season's end, so we might as well have an actual thread for it.

Now, I am going to lay a few 'ground rules' in a bid to keep the thread from devolving into people suggesting a bunch of unrealistic scenarios and everyone bickering over whether we can/will/should do it or not when it's irrelevant.

1. We must delist a minimum of three players from the senior list. No mentions of McKenzie, Spencer, Newton, Meesen, Hughes or Healey.

2. No "demote to rookie list". This is not a real option, this is just a delisting. What we do with our rookie selections is an unrelated topic.

3. Try to stick to the unofficial, uncontracted player list which has circulated in other threads. I have copied it here for reference. If you insist on delisting a contracted player you should have a good explanation for why the Club would take such a risk with the trust of the playing group.

Warnock, Bruce, Jones, Watts, Bate, Miller, Johnson, Bell, Moloney, McDonald, Bail, Blease, Strauss, McNamara.

4. Having Bruce & McDonald retire does not open up 2 list spots. It would only allow us to elevate a rookie at the start of the year as well as mid-season. One of these players moving on would allow Brad Green to move onto the Veteran's List and open up a spot on the Senior List.

Now, remember that the number of delistings relates to the number of draft picks we will take and also consider whether there are any rookie listed players you would like to elevate. If you do, they happen before we get a draft pick. So if you want to elevate McKenzie then your 2nd delisting gets us a Rnd 1 draft pick.

My selections:

Bell (McKenzie elevated)

McNamara (Spencer elevated)

Miller (Rnd 1 Draft Pick)

McDonald (Rnd 2 Draft Pick)

At this stage I don't have a 5th player to delist since it would only give us access to a Rnd 3 Draft Pick which with the GC concessions won't actually come until around Pick 50 in the Draft. In my opinion, a Draft Pick 50 is not a better prospect than any of the players remaining on that list.

Have at it.

[sylvinator 96]

My selections:

Bell (McKenzie elevated)

McNamara (Spencer elevated)

Miller (Rnd 1 Draft Pick)

McDonald (Rnd 2 Draft Pick)

I probably agree with the delistings, but would not elevate Spenser. Prefer pick 50ish for sure.

[Goat 98]

got this from meesans twitter.

Not good finding out that I will reqiure surgery later in the year which will keep me on crutches for 4months and miss all of next season

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

At this stage I don't have a 5th player to delist since it would only give us access to a Rnd 3 Draft Pick which with the GC concessions won't actually come until around Pick 50 in the Draft. In my opinion, a Draft Pick 50 is not a better prospect than any of the players remaining on that list.

PJ. I'd rather we play kids in the ruck next year than him.

[hoopla 418]

My selections:

Bell (McKenzie elevated)

McNamara (Spencer elevated)

Miller (Rnd 1 Draft Pick)

McDonald (Rnd 2 Draft Pick)

At this stage I don't have a 5th player to delist since it would only give us access to a Rnd 3 Draft Pick which with the GC concessions won't actually come until around Pick 50 in the Draft. In my opinion, a Draft Pick 50 is not a better prospect than any of the players remaining on that list.

Have at it.

Thank-you Inner Demon , for an excellent analysis.

There are two matters that might alter the scenario

1. The possibility that The Gold Coast will take Miller giving us formula- driven access to another pick - potentially in the top 50

2. The possibility that we might be able to trade out someone like Cheney to a club that will give him more opportunity .. ( which the playing group might see as a positive)

The big question you raise again surrounds Junior. On form before his injury - he would have been a certain starter next year. I reckon the decision will be his .... and his form in the next two weeks will be crucial.

With Fitzpatrick, Gawn Spencer and a fit(?) Martin the mix, there must be a question mark over PJ?

Whether or not Strauss gets an extension must surely depend on the extent of his injuries this year ... and his own will to succeed. These are things we are not in a position to judge.

[Eth 4]

My selections:

Bell (McKenzie elevated)

McNamara (Spencer elevated)

Miller (Rnd 1 Draft Pick)

McDonald (Rnd 2 Draft Pick)

Agree with everything except Spencer's elevation - I'd take pick 50 over him on the senior list.

Consider Jack Fitzpatrick. Or Rohan Bail. Or Col Garland. Low picks.

Edited August 16, 2010 by eth38

[Red Sox 2]

If you want to elevate Spencer, Paul Johnson must be delisted ahead of McNamara IMO.

The Paul Johnson experiment is drawing to a close IMO. The Big Rush showed again how useful he is as an option up forward, but we are not afforded this luxury too often as PJ is getting smashed when Russian is being rested.

I've seen Jack Fitzpatrick a few times now, the Casey V Collingwood game for example, he really impressed me taking on Josh Fraser and Cam Wood. Fitz has a big future IMO. He is extremely mobile and will be a threat when playing up forward.

My selections to go would be: Paul Johnson, Brad Miller, Daniel Bell, Tom McNamara & James McDonald. I will break your rule and suggest that either one of Spencer or Johnson will be kept as a 'rookie' and Meesen will not. Fitzpatrick & Gawn (potential is good there too) might not yet be ready and we will need a 'reserve'.

Junior Mac - what a player, leader, skipper and if he wants to go around again, I wouldn't argue against him but a guy as selfless as Junior is a fair chance to fall on his sword and let the club move forward with the kids, knowing that he wont be around for the shot at glory.

There is of course all the houses being bought on the Gold Coast for Petterd, Bate & Morton! So anyone of these crazy rumors could change the players that are delisted, minus Ricky P.

[Inner Demon 1]

PJ. I'd rather we play kids in the ruck next year than him.

It's an interesting one. I've wrestled with that myself. In the end I'm falling on the side of giving him a 1 year contract to serve as Jamar Insurance. If, god forbid, the Big Russian went down during next year that leaves us relying completely on Spencer/Gawn/Fitzpatrick/Martin. I'm not comfortable with that, it's just a little too soon.

However, I have no idea whatsoever what kind of players Barry and his team have pegged as floating around that point in the draft so it's tough to make any sort of educated call.

[satyricon 267]

It's an interesting one. I've wrestled with that myself. In the end I'm falling on the side of giving him a 1 year contract to serve as Jamar Insurance. If, god forbid, the Big Russian went down during next year that leaves us relying completely on Spencer/Gawn/Fitzpatrick/Martin. I'm not comfortable with that, it's just a little too soon.

However, I have no idea whatsoever what kind of players Barry and his team have pegged as floating around that point in the draft so it's tough to make any sort of educated call.

I wwould go with the young kids as well, we don't need insurance, we will have Fitzpatrick, Gawn and possibly Spencer with another preseason under their belts, PJ has had his chances, he doesn't do enough around the ground and for a bloke his size, he doesn't seem to know how to use it

[DeezMan 4]

John Meesen just "tweeted" the bad news that he will be having surgery later this year (I presume for his ankle) which will put him on crutches for 4 months and miss all of next season.

Gone. A shame as he was starting to get a move on when he was injury-free for a slight portion of the 2008 season. A guy whom never got to show his real potential.

[Red and Blue Flame 142]

delist: Bell, McNamara, Martin, Meesen, Newton?

Gold Coast: Bate, Miller, Bruce?

Retire: McDonald?

[Inner Demon 1]

delist: Bell, McNamara, Martin, Meesen, Newton?

Gold Coast: Bate, Miller, Bruce?

Retire: McDonald?

Well that didn't take long...

Read the first post and try again.

Furthermore, Gold Coast can only poach a maximum of one uncontracted player.

[furious d 447]

First the certainties, Bell and Miller are finished. One of those spots goes to Jordie McKenzie the other on a first round draft pick.

Next is the ruck. Only one spot is available next year for either Spencer or PJ imo. If PJ goes Jake gets elevated. Not 100% sure but I think we can't re rookie Spencer, so if PJ stays Spencer goes. Not sure which way to go. PJ provides better cover for Jamar right now but I don't see him as a long term option. Spencer seems injury prone but CC rates him highly. If PJ stays it has to be a 1 year contract.

Next is Junior. Whatever decision he and the club come to is fine by me. I'd be happy to see him go round again if he and the club think his body is up to it. If Junior decides to hang up the boots it may or may not save Tommy Mac. We need at least 2 picks in the draft, so if junior plays on T-mac has to go. If junior retires I'd rather hold onto Tom on a 1 year contract than use the late 50's pick we'd get for delisting him

[IWAP 168]

I love Junior, and consider him best 22 currently but have doubts whether that will be the case next year. As much as I'd love him to stay, our list spots have become much more of a premium. The only way I would keep him is if the unlikely chance that the rumours about Bruce and Gold Coast are true.

We cant re-rookie Spencer (maximum 3 years on rookie list at one club)

I dont think Cheney or McNamara have much of a chance of playing in our premiership 22 but think McNamara has more potential for upside

Retire: Junior

Delist: Bell Miller Johnson Cheney

Draft: Rounds 1,2,3 (Upgrade: Mckenzie, Spencer).

Id look towards getting some ruck (Jamar injury) insurance in the rookie draft, but would not expect much to be available since other clubs + Gold Coast + GWS will be looking for the same thing

Edited August 16, 2010 by IWAP

[Inner Demon 1]

I love Junior, and consider him best 22 currently – but have doubts whether that will be the case next year. As much as I'd love him to stay, our list spots have become much more of a premium. The only way I would keep him is if the unlikely chance that the rumours about Bruce and Gold Coast are true.

We can’t re-rookie Spencer (maximum 3 years on rookie list at one club)

I don’t think Cheney or McNamara have much of a chance of playing in our premiership 22 – but think McNamara has more potential for upside

Retire: Junior

Delist: Bell Miller Johnson Cheney

Draft: Rounds 1,2,3 (Upgrade: Mckenzie, Spencer).

I’d look towards getting some ruck (Jamar injury) insurance in the rookie draft, but would not expect much to be available since other clubs + Gold Coast + GWS will be looking for the same thing

Cheney is contracted through 2011. Source

[Jaded No More 58,635]

I think PJ will survive by virtue of him being a ruckman, although a poor one, with Meesen gone, Martin having to undergo surgery and possibly miss some or all of pre-season, Gawn barely able to get off the injury list and Fitzpatrick being a 5 year old beanpole.

It would be an absolute shame to lose an unknown quantity in McNamara, who is a KPD and was a bottom-age recruit, just so we can keep an NQR ruckman, but sometimes list balance has to win out.

For mine though, Cheney goes before McNamara. We've seen about as much as Cheney has to offer at senior level, and I doubt he'll ever crack it into our best 22. So with that:

Bell (delist)

Miller (delist)

Cheney (delist)

Junior (retire)

Green (elevated to senior list)

McKenzie and Spencer (elevated to senior list)

The rest of the rookie list goes too. If we're only going to have 3 picks in the draft, I'd like to leave some room on the rookie list to try and develop either a mature age rookie or another ruckman.

Edit: So just saw Cheney is contracted for another year, so you can pretty much disregard my entire post above

Edited August 16, 2010 by Jaded

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I probably agree with the delistings, but would not elevate Spenser. Prefer pick 50ish for sure.

What sort of player do you suspect we would get for pick 50 given where our list is?

If its a gem (read: = Rohan Bail) then maybe. But you really are getting down to the punting region of the list.

Given Gawn is still 2 to 3 years away from being AFL ready and PJ is suspect, I would elevate Spencer.

1. The possibility that The Gold Coast will take Miller giving us formula- driven access to another pick - potentially in the top 50

2. The possibility that we might be able to trade out someone like Cheney to a club that will give him more opportunity .. ( which the playing group might see as a positive)

The big question you raise again surrounds Junior. On form before his injury - he would have been a certain starter next year. I reckon the decision will be his .... and his form in the next two weeks will be crucial.

With Fitzpatrick, Gawn Spencer and a fit(?) Martin the mix, there must be a question mark over PJ?

Why would GC17 have to offer anything for Miller when he is OOC? My mail is that if Miller is not getting another MFC contract he will seek a contract to play VFL next year. He and his family are settled in Melbourne and they dont want to move. I know money can change minds but GC17 would be unlikely to do that.

Cheney does not have trade value and at best you get pick 50 or so.

Junior's decision should be the Club's and Junior. I dont think Junior would put himself in front of the Club's interests. His injury situation was interesting. At 34, the body starts sending messages which the person may not want to hear.

Martin, is he contracted next year?? If so, then the Club may release PJ but I am not so sure. Lack of options on the list and Jamar insurance is PJ's only saving grace.

John Meesen just "tweeted" the bad news that he will be having surgery later this year (I presume for his ankle) which will put him on crutches for 4 months and miss all of next season.

Gone. A shame as he was starting to get a move on when he was injury-free for a slight portion of the 2008 season. A guy whom never got to show his real potential.

He was gone the year he started at MFC. The only thing worse than some of Meesen's games is his chronic injuries. Fit or not, underwhelming at best.

[IWAP 168]

Cheney is contracted through 2011. Source

Thanks Inner Demon - I usually follow these things closely, but must have missed this one. I think I'd reluctantly stick with just the 2 draft picks then.

[JACKATTACK 17]

I'm going to throw my support behind PJ and say that he is a required player for next year. Fit he will play 2nd fiddle to Russian. Or as insurance. He's shown enough this year for this kind of endorsement and Jamar like improvement is not out of the question, although time is ticking.

Spencer for me would only be worth keeping on as a Rookie and I don't know if that is even possible. If not then I say he should go.

Fitzpatrick and Gawn are the real risks to PJ, I hear very good things about Fitzy. But chances are they won't be ruck mature until 2013 or later. I'm optimistic that one of the two will start to play games as soon as next year but I don't feel comfortable with just Jamar and these two. I have gone cold on Martin.

So I guess that leaves:

Bell

Miller (sad)

Junior (it's time)

McNamara (line ball)

[Deevout 449]

More threads than not seem to eventually wind up debating the delistings at season's end, so we might as well have an actual thread for it.

Now, I am going to lay a few 'ground rules' in a bid to keep the thread from devolving into people suggesting a bunch of unrealistic scenarios and everyone bickering over whether we can/will/should do it or not when it's irrelevant.

1. We must delist a minimum of three players from the senior list. No mentions of McKenzie, Spencer, Newton, Meesen, Hughes or Healey.

2. No "demote to rookie list". This is not a real option, this is just a delisting. What we do with our rookie selections is an unrelated topic.

3. Try to stick to the unofficial, uncontracted player list which has circulated in other threads. I have copied it here for reference. If you insist on delisting a contracted player you should have a good explanation for why the Club would take such a risk with the trust of the playing group.

Warnock, Bruce, Jones, Watts, Bate, Miller, Johnson, Bell, Moloney, McDonald, Bail, Blease, Strauss, McNamara.

4. Having Bruce & McDonald retire does not open up 2 list spots. It would only allow us to elevate a rookie at the start of the year as well as mid-season. One of these players moving on would allow Brad Green to move onto the Veteran's List and open up a spot on the Senior List.

Now, remember that the number of delistings relates to the number of draft picks we will take and also consider whether there are any rookie listed players you would like to elevate. If you do, they happen before we get a draft pick. So if you want to elevate McKenzie then your 2nd delisting gets us a Rnd 1 draft pick.

My selections:

Bell (McKenzie elevated)

McNamara (Spencer elevated)

Miller (Rnd 1 Draft Pick)

McDonald (Rnd 2 Draft Pick)

At this stage I don't have a 5th player to delist since it would only give us access to a Rnd 3 Draft Pick which with the GC concessions won't actually come until around Pick 50 in the Draft. In my opinion, a Draft Pick 50 is not a better prospect than any of the players remaining on that list.

Have at it.

I agree with your delistings, pity about Junior, but he still could stay depending on who if any decide to go to another club, this factor has to be taken into consideration.

[JACKATTACK 17]

He was gone the year he started at MFC. The only thing worse than some of Meesen's games is his chronic injuries. Fit or not, underwhelming at best.

Shame for him, to be taken so early in the draft and to never really have a fair run at it.

[Choko 493]

Shame for him, to be taken so early in the draft and to never really have a fair run at it.

Well looks like I am the only one left in the Daniel Bell fan club!

I think he has a lot still to offer.

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

OK. I'll start with a look at what I think we need available to us in the drafts. Personally, I think at minimum we need 2 draft picks, 1 Rookie elevation and 1 PSD. I would prefer to have 2 rookie elevations open to us, but it may be a luxury we can't afford.

Based on that, we need to open up 4-5 spots on our list.

The obvious two are Miller and Bell. It seems pretty clear that the club is not going to keep them given that neither one can get a look at a senior game.

I am in the retirement camp for Junior. I love the guy, and I love the way he plays, but I think his body is beginning to fail him and I would hate to see him play out another season if he spends most of it on the long term injury list and plugging away at Casey. Better to throw him a huge sendoff in round 22 this year by thrashing the Roos.

These three are the obvious picks for me. After this it gets a little dodgy. We need to factor in things like whether GC snares one of our uncontracted players, whether we have anyone with trade potential and how the club feels about the guys who haven't been playing this year.

Of the players GC have been runmoured to be interested in, I think Bate would be the most likely to be targeted. He is within their age range, has good experience and when fit is a very good forward option. If he were to go to them it would make life much easier for us. However, I have never heard any suggestion that he is unhappy where he is and I doubt the club would want to give him up, so there would no doubt be incentives for him to stay.

I rate McNamara and Cheney as the most suitable to trade, although Straus could be a dark horse as well. None of them have looked like breaking into the senior side, and they are all quality young players. In all cases it could be a huge boost to their careers to go to another club, even if it costs them a shot at a premiership. I don't think any other clubs would show an interest in our spare ruck/tall players, so PJ and Martin are out of the running for trade bait honours.

So we have the following options:

Bell + Miller = Gone

Junior = Retired (Green goes to veterans list and frees up a spot on main list)

Trade/GC poaching = any/all of Bate, McNamara, Cheney or Straus.

My ideal result would be for two of the trade/GC options to occur, allowing us to elevate both McKenzie and Spencer to the main list and use our first two ND picks and our first PSD. Obviously, there is no way to tell if the club will decide to drop PJ, or indeed to let Spencer slip. Both of these things could happen quite easily, depending on how they feel about the development of our young rucks. If we were to keep every one of our up-and-coming rucks, we would soon find ourselves top-heavy, but there are worse problems.

[beelzebub 22,264]

Totally convoluted and unrealistic if no mention of Meesen Newton , Hughes nor Healey can be had... nor demoting to rookie etc as thats a legitimate and precedented practice.

No unrealistic scenariojs ?? This thread must surely be a contradiction in terms

[1858 224]

Bell

Miller (sad)

Junior (it's time)

McNamara (line ball)

I think I'm coming to this realisation.

I'd prefer to keep McNamara than get a 3rd ND pick but if push comes to shove in order to free up a spot for a 2nd ND pick then I think we'll have to look at delisting or trading someone and the club will have to make an important decision here to make sure they don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

This is contingent on my opinion that McKenzie and Spencer should be elevated and that we will put PJ on a 1 yr deal (not ideal but as many have mentioned - insurance).

I wish the same circumstances (wrt our rookie picks this year) existed to facilitate a delisting and re-rookieing of Martin similar to Meesen/Newton but they aren't there so it isn't a feasible option.

One thing that is very likely is getting up to 6 or 7 new rookies so we will have more youth stocks to tap into (future Jordies B) ) down the track which is why I hope we keep current kids like McNamara who have at least been in the system as opposed to a 3rd ND pick in this years draft.

Things are very tight this year and obviously what the club ultimate decides to do will tie in with it's evaluation of the draft and any subsequent picks we make from trades.