PJ

[Jaded No More 68,974]

Yep, we could have drafted Naitanui.

[TT's Demons 1]

Martin has missed the last two Casey games so must be injured.

Stef Martin was interviewed in the Hassett room after the match and he has a hip injury at present and not 100% sure how serious it is as yet.

[QueenC 74]

Yep, we could have drafted Naitanui.

Yes, but please, please move on......

We've all read and fully understand your position.

[QueenC 74]

Ha !!!

[jayceebee31 761]

Pre-emptive strike here for the posters who will no doubt give me a hard time for getting behind PJ.

He let me down today.

Drop him. Gooooooooooorn.

Dan, One may say you deserve a hiding in backing this lost cause- simply not upto it in any degree back to Casey 2nds's for me.

[rpfc 28,779]

Yep, we could have drafted Naitanui.

Yeah, he'll be a great ruckman.

But as I posted before that particular draft - we need a 196cm CHF/FF with great hands and smarts to convert the ridiculous amount of footy that Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, McKenzie, Gysberts, and Blease will shove down his throat for a decade.

Comprehend?

[Redleg 41,484]

Me thinks the penny is starting to drop DD. But only starting. Two years ago you did state he could not ruck. Today you stated he cat put it together unless its the VFL. Hmmmm.

The reality is that when Jolly was cleared MFC under Daniher did not invest in developing ruck stocks. The reality is that when White petered out and Jamar was injured, PJ failed where it counted. He is fortunate he has had an existing contract. Our list ruck stocks have been patchy and PJ has survived without reasonable competition. He wont be getting another contract. His regular periods in the VFL and the fact that Spencer, GAWN and Fitz are around should illustrate that the coaching panel do have some insight into PJ

Its been no different to many of the sub par performances he has put in over the past few years without showing any of the basic pre requisites of big man play.

Agree. I was a supporter of PJ. Unless he shows me otherwise in a big way, no more.

[45HG 1,559]

Yeah, he'll be a great ruckman.

But as I posted before that particular draft - we need a 196cm CHF/FF with great hands and smarts to convert the ridiculous amount of footy that Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, McKenzie, Gysberts, and Blease will shove down his throat for a decade.

Comprehend?

You predicted that we'd get Scully, Trengove and Gysberts a year before we got them? B)

[Redleg 41,484]

Very funny.

[Nicho 1]

Hw was pitiful and like every other player - Grimes, J Mac just didnt try!

By the way what ever happended to kicking the ball to a one on one when the pressure is on! Clear and give an opportunity down field!

[rpfc 28,779]

You predicted that we'd get Scully, Trengove and Gysberts a year before we got them? B)

I wouldn't put it past me...

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

You're getting soft on me in your old age, Rhino.

Me thinks the penny is starting to drop DD. But only starting. Two years ago you did state he could not ruck. Today you stated he cat put it together unless its the VFL. Hmmmm.

Two years ago I stated he's not as good a pure ruckman as Jamar. Not that he COULDN'T ruck. I cited the fact that he showed more in his early times at the club as an around-the-ground player. At the time, it was totally fair (and supportive, something you don't partake in) to suggest the penny would drop, and he'd be able to start putting together games. He HAS played good games as a ruckman, and as a possession winning ruckman. Another fact you and eeeeveryone else seems happy to gloss over.

And again you misquote me, I didn't state he CAN'T put it together unless it's the VFL. I said he doesn't seem to put it together unless i's the VFL. Both of these things are accusations we aimed at Jamar in his bad years. For the record, aaaagain, Johnson had probably his worst game I've seen for MFC. Jamar had seasons upon seasons of games like this before he became a potential AA. Logically, this doesn't mean PJ will make it. But given I got so stuck into Jamar (as did you) I won't be jumping off the Johnson bandwagon with as much glee. I've learned my lesson. I think on some level, you have too. Though you rarely show it.

The reality is that when Jolly was cleared MFC under Daniher did not invest in developing ruck stocks.

Or anything else really, for that matter.

The reality is that when White petered out and Jamar was injured, PJ failed where it counted.

This again. PJ did not fail. Actually he put in some good performances. Battled hard when he had the job all on his own. Didn't succeed in the Jamar sense, but he played al but a couple of games last year with zero support.

He is fortunate he has had an existing contract. Our list ruck stocks have been patchy and PJ has survived without reasonable competition.

If there was a Cox/Naitanui/Seaby situation he'd have been moved on. But he would have ended up at a another club, I'm certain.

He wont be getting another contract.

You said that last time. You couldn't possibly know that. And the fact he got a game after no pre-season, and limited time in the VFL suggests the FD see more in him than you know.

His regular periods in the VFL and the fact that Spencer, GAWN and Fitz are around should illustrate that the coaching panel do have some insight into PJ

Of course. But WHAT insight? He got a game ahead of Spencer, who they say regularly is going to have a bright future. Also, Spence been playing well enough in the VFL to get a callup. Why didn't he?

Speaking of Gawn. You do like him don't you? You like him enough to shout his name whenever you comment on him. Why so positive about a kid who's not played a game yet?

Its been no different to many of the sub par performances he has put in over the past few years without showing any of the basic pre requisites of big man play.

Nope. It was WHOLLY different from his past games. It was a LOT worse.

All in all, I still don't think he's finished yet. Newton has been maintained for a LOT longer, while showing a LOT less. And once again the lack of decent talls, I reckon, means PJ won't need to show much in the last 14 rounds to be retained. In a decent 44, he'd be moved on (and he was), but we're not a decent 44 yet. We're actually a looong looong way from it.

Drafting will be interesting this year. Are there any exciting ruck prospects coming through that might fall to the 10-16 range (likely where we'll be picking)? I know I haven' heard of any. I still reckon PJ will get a gig ahead of any projects.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

I don't get it....?

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Hang on! I got it! It's either Bailey or Prendergast?

[titan_uranus 25,045]

I don't get it....?

This basically sums you up.

[Nasher 33,617]

This basically sums you up.

*snort*

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You're getting soft on me in your old age, Rhino.

No just sympathy...Could see it coming

Two years ago I stated he's not as good a pure ruckman as Jamar. Not that he COULDN'T ruck. I cited the fact that he showed more in his early times at the club as an around-the-ground player. At the time, it was totally fair (and supportive, something you don't partake in) to suggest the penny would drop, and he'd be able to start putting together games. He HAS played good games as a ruckman, and as a possession winning ruckman. Another fact you and eeeeveryone else seems happy to gloss over.

He has shown zip around the ground and less in the ruck. As I mentioned last year in the words of an AFL assistant coach. PJ is the sort of player who tickles your nuts with promise and just does not deliver. You work hard trying to oversell his good games when they have have best been modest. And when he does accumlate possessions they dont impact the game or hurt the opposition.

And again you misquote me, I didn't state he CAN'T put it together unless it's the VFL. I said he doesn't seem to put it together unless i's the VFL.

Cant....doesn't....in eight years of AFL football...it says.....wait for it..wait for it...

Both of these things are accusations we aimed at Jamar in his bad years. For the record, aaaagain, Johnson had probably his worst game I've seen for MFC. Jamar had seasons upon seasons of games like this before he became a potential AA. Logically, this doesn't mean PJ will make it. But given I got so stuck into Jamar (as did you) I won't be jumping off the Johnson bandwagon with as much glee. I've learned my lesson. I think on some level, you have too. Though you rarely show it.

As has been explained, Jamar could ruck and take a mark but he could not get enough of it. Things started turning for Jamar 2 years ago. PJ cant ruck, cant mark and is an ineffectual 200cm rover.

When it comes to PJ...I feel vindicated. Jamar has improved dramatically but has always been better then PJ.

This again. PJ did not fail. Actually he put in some good performances. Battled hard when he had the job all on his own. Didn't succeed in the Jamar sense, but he played al but a couple of games last year with zero support.

He was carp last year. At times more embarrassingly so than the team. We even had to stoop to Meesen. He had a golden opportunity to show his wares. He failed and was shown up. Yesterday was more of the same. You have complained of PJ being starved of opportunity. He was given a gift and shown up big time.

If there was a Cox/Naitanui/Seaby situation he'd have been moved on. But he would have ended up at a another club, I'm certain.

I wish that was so.

You said that last time. You couldn't possibly know that. And the fact he got a game after no pre-season, and limited time in the VFL suggests the FD see more in him than you know.

They also dropped him at the end of last season. The FD gave him one last chance. He will be out the door at year end. Together with Bell and Miller.

Of course. But WHAT insight? He got a game ahead of Spencer, who they say regularly is going to have a bright future. Also, Spence been playing well enough in the VFL to get a callup. Why didn't he?

Spencer has had an injury interrupted season. There is more value having Spencer learning thec 1st ruck than pitch hitting for Jamar and playing forward. We should persevere with him. He actually rucks, hits packs, makes a contest and clears a path for smaller players. PJ does not do that.

Speaking of Gawn. You do like him don't you? You like him enough to shout his name whenever you comment on him. Why so positive about a kid who's not played a game yet?

I type GAWN as play on his name. I have no preferences either way but he comes credientialled as being able to ruck, mobile and he is tall. He is 18 and I will give him the chance he deserves. If after 5 years he performs like PJ I will be wondering why would persevere with him after 8 years if we are still getting the same crud.

All in all, I still don't think he's finished yet. Newton has been maintained for a LOT longer, while showing a LOT less. And once again the lack of decent talls, I reckon, means PJ won't need to show much in the last 14 rounds to be retained. In a decent 44, he'd be moved on (and he was), but we're not a decent 44 yet. We're actually a looong looong way from it.

Good grief if you think his survival is based on Newts longevity. Ugh. Newton is on the rookie list. Why so we could take GAWN and Fitzpatrick. Why? Shortsge of rovers??? Newton and PJ can hold hands as they leave at year end. PJ wont show much in the last 14 rounds. His survival wont be and should not be dependent on the other 43. If we look at where MFC needs to be in 2011 and beyond. I dont know where PJ fits at all.

Drafting will be interesting this year. Are there any exciting ruck prospects coming through that might fall to the 10-16 range (likely where we'll be picking)? I know I haven' heard of any. I still reckon PJ will get a gig ahead of any projects.

Any good ruck prospect will be taken with lower picks or rookied like Spencer. We have Jamar, Spencer, GAWN and a rookie. It would be seriously dumb move to hold a proven rucking spud like PJ rather than invest in the junior ruck. They could even rookie a prospect and PJ will still go.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

When it comes to PJ...I feel vindicated.

I wouldn't if I were you. You got stuck into a football player pre-emptively, and that football player has not developed quickly or well enough. I took exception always to your attitude against PJ, which IMO came early. You do this regularly, and in as many cases as not, the player turns a corner and proves you wrong.

Jamar has improved dramatically but has always been better then PJ.

Nope. 2 years ago PJ was doing more.

Spencer has had an injury interrupted season. There is more value having Spencer learning thec 1st ruck than pitch hitting for Jamar and playing forward. We should persevere with him. He actually rucks, hits packs, makes a contest and clears a path for smaller players.

For what it's worth, I think Spence is our 2nd ruckman, and pretty much always has been this year... save for the fact the footy department might see him as too underdeveloped to make any headway in the AFL. Gawn will be given a loong LOOONG time. Spencer will be given probably a number of years too. I'd say if not next year, then the year after we'll be seeing him play most if not all games, assuming nothing goes horribly wrong.

Good grief if you think his survival is based on Newts longevity.

Aaah. No. Never said that. Just making a comparison.

His survival wont be and should not be dependent on the other 43.

EVERY players' survival is dependant on the other 43. It's EXACTLY the same situation as Juice. Something you've commented on repeatedly to those claiming Newton's retention was a mistake. There was simply NO-ONE better in the farm system. SO what little potential these two players had shown was stuck with. You can't call it a mistake. It's pretty regular list-management to me.

Any good ruck prospect will be taken with lower picks or rookied like Spencer.

Good. Great. Know of any? Personally if the best we can do with young ruck prospects is Fitzpatrick, who doesn't even ruck, then maybe you're blind to the fact there IS no-one past pick 50 worth picking up. And if there was, maybe they went early? Or maybe it's what I've been saying all along. The footy department would rather use any serious draft pick on anything BUT a ruckman.

It would be seriously dumb move to hold a proven rucking spud like PJ rather than invest in the junior ruck.

If said junior ruck exists.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I wouldn't if I were you. You got stuck into a football player pre-emptively, and that football player has not developed quickly or well enough. I took exception always to your attitude against PJ, which IMO came early. You do this regularly, and in as many cases as not, the player turns a corner and proves you wrong.

Three years ago I called PJ a 200cm rover who could not ruck, could not mark and did not have any physical presence to be an effective big man at AFL level. I made those comments against the grain of what nearly every other poster on this site including yourself who completely overrated him big time. I took alot of misguided and vitriolic flak for it too. Especially from you. He had a lot of cute skills which look handy on him but has none of the core big man skills necessary to make it.

Picked it early, called it, explained where his shortcmings were and had proven it in spades. You have been pantsed on this Dappa and you just keep digging. Maybe its because you visualised PJ from your own stated footy bakcground which has clouded your better judgement.

I also called Newton flawed earlier than that while you were waxing about his Sandy form. All his foibles have come well and truly to the surface now. FWIW, Bartram has proved me wrong this year. Not many others. You's be wishing you had that strike rate.

This isn't a gloat but just another time where I have had to correct your facts and also explain my critical assessment of PJ was clinical not personal.

Nope. 2 years ago PJ was doing more.

He won the coveted best 2nd ruck in the AFL medal. Ugh! He was doing more of the same. Its happened for so long now that most astute supporters are now sharp to it

For what it's worth, I think Spence is our 2nd ruckman, and pretty much always has been this year... save for the fact the footy department might see him as too underdeveloped to make any headway in the AFL. Gawn will be given a loong LOOONG time. Spencer will be given probably a number of years too. I'd say if not next year, then the year after we'll be seeing him play most if not all games, assuming nothing goes horribly wrong.

Glad you realise it now. Took a while. Says alot when a raw underdeveloped 20 year old with a fari way to go is the preferred 2nd ruck against a 26 yo eight season veteran who should be coming into his prime but cant and has never cut it at AFL.

Aaah. No. Never said that. Just making a comparison.

It was a bizarre one. Newton got put on the rookie list. If Meesen had not been a dud but a half decent ruck, I wonder if they would have asked PJ to take a rookie spot. Both Newton and PJ should go year end. One does not justify the existence of the other.

EVERY players' survival is dependant on the other 43. It's EXACTLY the same situation as Juice. Something you've commented on repeatedly to those claiming Newton's retention was a mistake. There was simply NO-ONE better in the farm system. SO what little potential these two players had shown was stuck with. You can't call it a mistake. It's pretty regular list-management to me.

You are wrong. Newton's retention was a mistake. My comment was that it was never the earth shattering club busting error that some melodramatic dweebs tried to make it. Giving Meesen a 3 year deal was a mistake. There small mistakes in the scheme of things. You dont want to many of them though.

A players survival on the list is based on what he brings to the table as a footballer. If he is a spud then it does not matter what the disposition is of the other 43.

Good. Great. Know of any? Personally if the best we can do with young ruck prospects is Fitzpatrick, who doesn't even ruck, then maybe you're blind to the fact there IS no-one past pick 50 worth picking up. And if there was, maybe they went early? Or maybe it's what I've been saying all along. The footy department would rather use any serious draft pick on anything BUT a ruckman.

Fitzpatrick is the same height as PJ and is 18. He was taken as project player to play forward/ruck. Or maybe he could be a 200cm rover like PJ?? If you actually did some research, a number of the AFL ruckman out there were taken originally as rookies.

And given "what I've been saying all along." then you statement here contradicts your position:

Drafting will be interesting this year. Are there any exciting ruck prospects coming through that might fall to the 10-16 range (likely where we'll be picking)? I know I haven' heard of any. I still reckon PJ will get a gig ahead of any projects.

If said junior ruck exists.

Agre. Makes the above quote even more contradictory.

[Rogue 585]

There are a few topics on Demonland that just seem to pop up every so often, go around in circles, and then reappear and repeat, like we're in an odd groundhog-style cycle of despair. PJ is one of those.

To bring those who've missed out on the fun, there seem to be agreement that he's not a first ruck.

I think that a second ruck needs another string to his bow and I think this is pretty uncontroversial. Unfortunately, even those that think PJ is best-22 or near it don't have much of an argument for what that second bow is (let alone a convincing one).

I'm not there yet. He disappointed me today, and he's lost me a lot of respect. But he's still got a lot of time and a certain amount of runs on the board.

Runs on the board based on the couple of matches - years ago - that you constantly reference as evidence that PJ's any good? Wow!

From memory, in at least one of those games he was playing as sole (or #1) ruck, a position you agree he won't play for us.

You also state that he gives us something up forward, despite getting decent game time up there (from back when ND was coaching) and doing zilch as a forward.

Let's be real about PJ, please...

Good. Great. Know of any? Personally if the best we can do with young ruck prospects is Fitzpatrick, who doesn't even ruck, then maybe you're blind to the fact there IS no-one past pick 50 worth picking up. And if there was, maybe they went early? Or maybe it's what I've been saying all along. The footy department would rather use any serious draft pick on anything BUT a ruckman.

If said junior ruck exists.

I posted up about the main rucks from each team, and a (big) majority of those were from either late or rookie picks.

You're right about high picks and rucks, and that's why every year I advocate rookie-listing young rucks.