Bruce and Bate

[Choko 493]

It's not about impatience.

These threads are just as bad as the "bashing" threads as you call them.

Bruce and Bate played exactly how they should have played last night and it's about time. In fact,

I wouldn't have been surprised if Bails and the coaching staff had a stern chat to them both about standing

up in this game.

I expect Bate to play with this consistency from now on and the same goes with Bruce.

I will continue to wine and moan if they drop off again next week and the week after. They have set the standard for themselves

now.

Nathan Jones is different. He has had a fantastic first 5 rounds and we can see that his disposal has improved tenfold. Terrific to see.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was leading the bluey.

You've got no idea mate.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

"All you precious Bruce defenders must realise this. Hes basic disposal at times is sub-par. Deal with it and learn to live with it."

Perhaps all the Bruce bashers should learn to live with the fact that the Football department continue to play him and are happy with him.

Bruce is given some of the toughest assignments each week and no one ever seems to consider the fact he generally beats and keeps his opponent out of the game. Look beyond the disposal and see the complete picture.

Bate was very good last night and will get better each week until he reaches peak fitness and form, that's not far off.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

You've got no idea mate.

And your reply really indicates that you do have an idea Choko.

What is wrong with what I stated?

Please enlighten me?

[MrReims 305]

You've got no idea mate.

These kind of replies are my favourite. I'm not suggesting the level of intelligent debate in this thread has been high by any means, but a 5 word generic sentence to really prove a point always makes me giggle. tee hee hee

[Choko 493]

And your reply really indicates that you do have an idea Choko.

What is wrong with what I stated?

Please enlighten me?

Ok, I'll play.

"It's about time Bruce and Bate played that way". Bruce has been one of our most consistent performers for, oh, a decade. Bate is coming back from an interrupted pre-season. He is a touch player, and is improving as he re-gains fitness each week. He also finished top 5 in the Bluey last year. So about time is simply wrong.

Why would Bails have had a stern chat with them? Bruce has been given jobs to do in defence, and he has done them. Which one did he fail in to get a "stern chat"? Bate has been tracking exactly as expected. So again, on what do you base your assertion.

You will continue to w[h]ine and moan - well, that bit's true. It's just that it's unjustified.

But the main reason I said you have no idea is because this thread was to congratulate, and you managed to bag.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Choko

[dees2010 4]

completely agree

[green_machine 36]

I see the criticism of bruce as his disposal is a bit haphazard at times. Very similar to McDonald, when either gets the ball in the clear I do cringe a little, but only a little. However they are both top 22 and would be top 22 in any other team. Bate is different, his disposal is actually very good, when he gets it something usually happens with him the complaints seem to be that he is not Jonathan Brown or a Pavlich.

The only similarities I can see in Bruce and Bates games is a good thing. They are both excellent man on man players. I often see both of them win one on ones and even one on two's when they are the ones. I do not understand why neither player gets the credit they deserve for these abilities. McDonald gets credit for his tackling and clearances but what Bate and Bruce do is win the ball in clear fifty fifty situations. These are very valuable skills and about time people started looking at the wider contribution of players, rather than focusing on pet winges. "Sells team mates into trouble", "too slow", "Does not mark above head enough".

[timD 994]

"All you precious Bruce defenders must realise this. Hes basic disposal at times is sub-par. Deal with it and learn to live with it."

Perhaps all the Bruce bashers should learn to live with the fact that the Football department continue to play him and are happy with him.

Bruce is given some of the toughest assignments each week and no one ever seems to consider the fact he generally beats and keeps his opponent out of the game. Look beyond the disposal and see the complete picture.

Bate was very good last night and will get better each week until he reaches peak fitness and form, that's not far off.

Thank you robbieF!

[titan_uranus 22,444]

Bruce had more contested possesions that mcdonald

mcdonald 9 clangers

Bruce 0

But again all we hear is Bruce butchers it.....

Read again the criticism of Bruce. It's not that he turns it over directly into an opponent's hands. It's that he often sells one of our own players down the river by handballing or kicking too high, allowing an opponent time to force a contest, or handballing to someone flat-footed, or going sideways when he could viably go forwards, or calling for the ball when he shouldn't be.

None of that gets included in your precious 'clanger' statistic.

Fact is, both of these players can run and run and have good balance.

I will definitely agree that Bruce is a good runner, especially for someone of his size. We should all recognise that.

[Pates 9,537]

Both played very well on Saturday night, Bate in particular is starting to gain momentum and is becoming very valuable as a hit up leading target. Bruce is tough to criticise, he finds the ball very easily and has a creative mind, his disposal is just not quite right. As many have pointed out it's not the efficiency of the receivers that's the issue, the issue is that too often the receiver is put under pressure by Bruce's handballs.

The irony is that i'm starting to find more worth in him staying in the side as the season goes on, it's handy having someone that can read the play and find the ball so easily in the backline. Having said that, i get the feeling that someone will be pushing for his spot towards the end of the year. With so many best 22 players to come back in, the pressure could on him to justify his selection.

[Go the mighty Dees 0]

Bruce continues to get more than his share of possessions, and has an influence on most games. His disposal is not good and appears to be getting worse with age. 1 in 4 kicks is a shank, and 1 in 3 handballs seem to miss the target by 1 metre plus. He's still one of my favourite players of the last decade without doubt, he's clearly not the player he was, and that's probably where most of the criticism comes from. If you look at his performances obvjectively, he's still playing some good footy and is in our best 22 for sure. He's still regularly getting 20+ possies and staying involved in the game which is most of the hard part.

Bate is the type of player who will take a month to find his feet so I was never concerned about his slow start to the year. He'll kick on from last night.

Bruce, along with Junior, Greeny, Maloney and Davey provide vital on field leadership to a very young but brilliant team. I suggest without all of them stepping up over the last couple of weeks since the first round, both from a playing and leading perspective, we would still be cellar dwellers. A lot of our improvement has come from the commitment from these guys, and all credit to them. They will be vital in providing onfield guidance especially when some of the better teams take a close look at our winning game plan (and make no mistake they all will examine it with a fine tooth comb, as well as take a close look at how to cambat our younger brigade)) and try and knock us off our game by targeting our brilliant youngsters. Tom Scully was reasonably quiet for the first three quarters on saturday because he attracted a strong tag, which he eventually broke and played a blinder in the final quarter. This will only get worse, and be applied to Trengove as well. The likes of Warnock and Jamar will be important in the protection of the young. I notice on a couple of ocassions over the last couple of weeks Jamar has stepped up when the likes of Brown, Fevola and Mcleod have tried that one.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Go the mighty Dees

[Adzman 2,085]

Never write off a Ginger. They have powers we humans don't understand.

On a serious note, I was one to worry about Bate. I never gave him a slagging/bagging, but I was starting to wonder where he was going. Bate had done a great job in recent weeks, and now looks every bit of a permanent fixture for this team going forward.

Bruce showed some form from his greater days. I liked it, and would love more of it. Still has it at this level, and will offered a new deal to stay with the club.

[Felix 92]

Never write off a Ginger. They have powers we humans don't understand.

Thank Alah we have 4 of them

[Pipefitter 2,020]

Watched the game on tape today.

Bruce had a shocking first half and but got better as the game went on.

Dont believe the stats. Yep he's stats were effective, but it doesnt give you a true indication of how good they were. Was missing players by hand often but the player would manage to run onto it which in turn makes the possession statistically effective. He puts his team mates under pressure alot. He just simply doesn't chose the right option.

Like i said he got better as the game went on but i really dont rate him.

[Trengove_is_God 0]

Bate was fantastic, just love his ability to present and his penetrating left foot.

Bruce was the weakest link in the team once again, and its staggering how often his possessons go to a player under pressure or sets them up to get crunched. Sadly these count as effective possessions when they are anything but.

Once Morton is ready to return, Bruce is done.

[Miracle 89]

Here, here Cam Bruce's disposal is unreliable and every chance of being fugly by hand or foot;

Every time Bruce gets the pill its a heart and mouth time for everyone because its a lottery as to whether we will be able to retain possession;

Its clear that most people recognise Cam is flawed, please stop this obsession with seeking to portray him as reliable with his disposal when he clearly is not

You and every Bruce Basher have no idea.

Lets assume you are correct that he can't kick, well why did Dean Bailey allow him to kick from a behind

a number of times.

I repeat, DB has confidence in his kicking so he lets him share the kicking in with Grimes

As I have stated in a different thread, up to 40 metres he is an excellent kick

[Jurrahnator 0]

I hope those criticising Cam Bruce have been watching "On the Couch" tonight. Both Gerard Healy and James Hird spoke of Bruce's performance, historically and this season, in glowing terms, particularly Hird. I prefer the opinions of two Brownlow medallists to those non-AFL players who like to criticise from the stands. My 40+ years of watching footy tell me that Cam Bruce is a critical part of the team's structure and a player the coaches rely upon to provide direction and leadership on the field. [No doubt, there will be some posters who tell me I'm an idiot! That's fine - I will just continue to rely on the opinions of people I respect.]

[Summer Blease 0]

I hope those criticising Cam Bruce have been watching "On the Couch" tonight. Both Gerard Healy and James Hird spoke of Bruce's performance, historically and this season, in glowing terms, particularly Hird. I prefer the opinions of two Brownlow medallists to those non-AFL players who like to criticise from the stands. My 40+ years of watching footy tell me that Cam Bruce is a critical part of the team's structure and a player the coaches rely upon to provide direction and leadership on the field. [No doubt, there will be some posters who tell me I'm an idiot! That's fine - I will just continue to rely on the opinions of people I respect.]

I am over all this Bruce bashing/defending. I'm over the never ending cycle of posters (not you) deciding to create a thread lauding Bruce's and Bate's performances after each and every solid performance they have, with the intention of trying to make "Bruce bashers" eat some kind of "humble pie". It is becoming rather tedious indeed. Every bloody Bruce thread I read is created by someone feeling they have to defend him! No one is saying his spot in the team is in danger. His disposal is not right- and there is visual evidence of that- watch a game!

People (not you) only like to glance over content in posts and miss the point totally. Frustrating race.

[Cards13 9,117]

Found this nugget in an article about Hawkins:

New Fwds

The new generation of key forwards is slightly shorter, but all subscribe to the same philosophy. Forever on the move, whether working laterally across the ground or pushing up aggressively to provide an option for the ball coming out of defence. "Multi-leading" is a staple of their game and it requires superb endurance and a mindset that has them wanting to work their opposition into the ground.

They are forever dangerous, always hunting the ball and, by extension, creating space for their fellow forwards to work into.

Melbourne's Matthew Bate and Adelaide's Patrick Dangerfield are leading the charge. Bate is one of the more underrated forwards in the competition. At 192 centimetres, he is deceptively quick, always presents, and kicks like a mule. For the past three years, he has had to bear the burden of playing key position in a team that was struggling. Finally, with a midfield that is winning more than its share of the contested football, and one possessing genuine leg speed and an ability to execute by foot, Bate looks set to blossom even further.

[Akum 2,660]

I hope those criticising Cam Bruce have been watching "On the Couch" tonight. Both Gerard Healy and James Hird spoke of Bruce's performance, historically and this season, in glowing terms, particularly Hird.

What Hird said was particularly interesting - says he found Bruce very tough to play on as a forward because "he'd usually beat you in the one-on-ones and then pick the right time to run off you".

I'm neither in the "Bruce-basher" nor the "Bruce-defender" camp as a rule, but James Hird I respect very highly as a sensible commentator, and he is in an ideal position to comment about Bruce's attributes.

Bruce may have his deficiencies, but he has a lot of positives too. He is certainly extremely good one-on-one against just about anybody, and when he runs off an opponent he usually gets it right. He can also plug virtually any gaps - tall or small or in-between, back or forward or midfield - and an opponent rarely gets the better of him. This is a strong set of positives to put up against any deficiencies in disposal.

[titan_uranus 22,444]

Melbourne's Matthew Bate and Adelaide's Patrick Dangerfield are leading the charge. Bate is one of the more underrated forwards in the competition. At 192 centimetres, he is deceptively quick, always presents, and kicks like a mule. For the past three years, he has had to bear the burden of playing key position in a team that was struggling. Finally, with a midfield that is winning more than its share of the contested football, and one possessing genuine leg speed and an ability to execute by foot, Bate looks set to blossom even further.

Err..

Good article though.

[Allen Jakovich 516]

What Hird said was particularly interesting - says he found Bruce very tough to play on as a forward because "he'd usually beat you in the one-on-ones and then pick the right time to run off you".

I'm neither in the "Bruce-basher" nor the "Bruce-defender" camp as a rule, but James Hird I respect very highly as a sensible commentator, and he is in an ideal position to comment about Bruce's attributes.

Bruce may have his deficiencies, but he has a lot of positives too. He is certainly extremely good one-on-one against just about anybody, and when he runs off an opponent he usually gets it right. He can also plug virtually any gaps - tall or small or in-between, back or forward or midfield - and an opponent rarely gets the better of him. This is a strong set of positives to put up against any deficiencies in disposal.

Yeah I remember Cam playing two blinders in particular on Hird in his latter years.

Was awesome to watch. He just kept beating him.

[titan_uranus 22,444]

Yeah I remember Cam playing two blinders in particular on Hird in his latter years.

Was awesome to watch. He just kept beating him.

And Brad Johnson too.

Bruce does have the football ability. It's just that in the last few years his disposal has waned, to the point where the ball goes too high (by hand and by foot), and often to the wrong option.

[rpfc 27,498]

Err..

Good article though.

He's quick in a straight line.

It's just the turning he has trouble with...

[titan_uranus 22,444]

He's quick in a straight line.

It's just the turning he has trouble with...

Yeah, but 'deceptively quick'? That makes it sound like he looks slow, but is actually pacy. I think he's just average. Doesn't really surprise anyone with pace. And yes, has the turning circle of an Isuzu.