The Club, The Coach & The Questions

[Johnny Karate 559]

I was at the game on the weekend and was apoplectic when the scoreboard read 12-92 midway through the third term. I felt that we haven't improved at all and wondered why the hell the club had extended Bailey's contract. With the scoreboard being kinder by the final siren and a few days days reflection my mood has changed somewhat and I now see why.

Fact 1. So far Bailey has delivered what he promised...

No, not two wooden spoons and numerous shitful performances (in b4 flame).

If I recall correctly Bailey promised to turn over the list and build a side through the draft since he took over in September 2007 the following players have either retired, have been traded or have been delisted;

1. Simon Buckley

2. Clint Bizzell

3. Ben Holland

4. Brock McLean

5. David Neitz

6. Daniel Ward

7. Adem Yze

8. Travis Johnstone

9. Chris Johnson

10. Russell Robertson

11. Nathan Brown

12. Luke Williams

13. John Meesen*

14. Isaac Weetra

15. Michael Newton*

16. Simon Godfrey

17. Paul Wheatley

18. Byron Pickett

19. Jeff White

20. Nathan Carroll

21. Jace Bode

22. Shane Valenti**

23. Matthew Whelan

* Redrafted as rookies

** Not retained on rookie list

With the exception of John Meesen, all of those players were from the Daniher era. Bailey also promised to give opportunities to young players, he has given 19 players their senior debuts in 45 matches as coach that is a new player every 2.5 matches. The point is when you look at the above list that is half a senior list culled with a hell of a lot of AFL experience from some players being replaced by debutants. He hasn't played favourites, and although I don't want this to come across as ND bashing (I like the guy) - it's fair to say his predecessor did. He also has spoken of being a teaching coach who wanted players to be able to play a variety of roles and positions. Now, of the players who have been pensioned off, traded etc some are definitely AFL standard footballers but I would say all were pretty much one position players. Whether it is perceived as the right or wrong approach it is what Bailey won his job based upon - he has been courageous in sticking to a long term outlook with a short term contract. It appears Bailey looked at the list in 2007 and decided that it couldn't win a premiership in the short or medium term for a key reason.

Fact 2.The Melbourne Footy Club does not have and hasn't had any stars for the best part of a generation.

I'm talking about real stars who year in, year out are in the top 5-8% of footballers in the league. Melbourne has had a lot of good footballers who I would consider B grade (not in a derogatory sense) maybe from the top 8-25 percentile range of footballers in the league but not quite star players. It can argued that outstanding footballers such as Judd, Ablett, Hodge et al have a profound impact on teams performance. Stars make B & even C grade players look better - how good did Heffernan and Blumfield look in Essendon 2000? How bad did they look at Melbourne and Richmond after? Stars can also accelerate/accentuate player development as draftees at West Coast and Hawthorn Judd and Hodge had the training standards set by Ben Cousins and Shane Crawford would they have been as good (or as good as quickly) if drafted to Melbourne with B grade players like Yze and Woewodin (with all due respect to both players) to look up to?

Most stars are drafted and stick with their clubs so therefore especially in the MFC's position they are hard to poach so Bailey has decided to go the draft route. Most of today's stars were taken in the drafting period 01-04, once again I do not wish to turn this into a Daniher/Cameron bashing thread (they did their best and what's happened has happened) but I would argue with the benefit of hindsight the only solid B grade players we got from those drafts are Bate and Sylvia which is/was a disaster.

Put simply our list is in such a shite state, and the teams we field often get embarrassed like last weekend because our best players are B grade, role players who should be icing on the cake rather than the backbone of a premiership or even a good side.

Bailey is making an effort to create a balanced list by recruiting the best young talent develop them into stars all with a long term view to the flag. In my opinion the club was right to give him an extra year because while the W/L is pathetic he hasn't ostensibly done anything wrong by the club as yet and whatever comes at the end of 2011 his tenure shouldn't hurt the club in the long term. i.e. He hasn't recruited Mark Graham for experience nor traded picks for Graham Polak or Troy Simmonds on long term deals after promising to play the kids! I would expect 15-20 wins from the next 43 matches for DB to get a contract renewal.

Bailey has been brave. It's said that there is a fine line between courage and stupidity and it is fair and reasonable to give it 43 matches to see if Bailey's bravery crosses into the dumb zone.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Jimmi C

[H_T 3,043]

Good post Jimmi C. As frustrating as the game was on Saturday. I was of the same opinion on game day and concur with your post in general.

[WonnaJurah 5]

I was at the game on the weekend and was apoplectic when the scoreboard read 12-92 midway through the third term. I felt that we haven't improved at all and wondered why the hell the club had extended Bailey's contract. With the scoreboard being kinder by the final siren and a few days days reflection my mood has changed somewhat and I now see why.

Fact 1. So far Bailey has delivered what he promised...

No, not two wooden spoons and numerous shitful performances (in b4 flame).

If I recall correctly Bailey promised to turn over the list and build a side through the draft since he took over in September 2007 the following players have either retired, have been traded or have been delisted;

1. Simon Buckley

2. Clint Bizzell

3. Ben Holland

4. Brock McLean

5. David Neitz

6. Daniel Ward

7. Adem Yze

8. Travis Johnstone

9. Chris Johnson

10. Russell Robertson

11. Nathan Brown

12. Luke Williams

13. John Meesen*

14. Isaac Weetra

15. Michael Newton*

16. Simon Godfrey

17. Paul Wheatley

18. Byron Pickett

19. Jeff White

20. Nathan Carroll

21. Jace Bode

22. Shane Valenti**

23. Matthew Whelan

* Redrafted as rookies

** Not retained on rookie list

Ryan Ferguson as well. I think during that time we had allot of players that were near the end of their careers and a new era begins now. i think 16-18 players remain from the Daniher time

Edited March 31, 2010 by WonnaJurah

[bing181 9,191]

Fact 2.The Melbourne Footy Club does not have and hasn't had any stars for the best part of a generation.

The key to it all IMHO. We lack on-field leadership, and have done for years.

Good post.

B

[Allen Jakovich 516]

Excellent post.

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

Thoughtful post Jimmi. It's all too easy to get caught up in the emotion of a bad loss. Much better to step back, take a deep breath, and look at the big picture in context. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

[Demonised 1,323]

A voice of reason in the middle of tumult. Most refreshing.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

Excellent Post. Very thoughtful and insightful, it is what many people have been saying on this site, but too many people expect things to change in one season.

If you look at most teams (maybe with the exceptions of Collingwood and Sydney) they have all had a rebuilding phase. Some are shorter than others, because they have some elite players to build around. We don't.

Once our draft picks of the past few seasons become A graders (hopefuly), then we can expect a turnaround.

I just hope that it actually works, and our rebuilding is for a reason, and I can finally go to the footy with that nervous feeling, wondering if we will win! I have not had that feeling for so long I actually forget what it means.

If we are still this crap in 3 seasons, then I will jump on the club bashing bandwagon.

[Cranky Franky 2,011]

Yes but he's on his 3rd year & we expect a better performance in Round 1 - where was the fire & passion ?

Bailey talks well & I'm sure he interviews well but we don't know if he can coach or not.

A cardboard cut out could have slashed the list like he has - that requires no skill.

Tactically he is disappointing & he was very poor last week and he has not yet been able to develop player like Dunn, Miller, Newton & others.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

Cranky, I know that people like to query whether Bailey can coach or not, and I am one of them. I am still giving him achance, and as I have stated before, I will wait and see what happens over the next 2 years (not just round 1).

Just wanting to know what you think a different coach, such as Malthouse or Sheedy, or even a Hardwick, would be doing with our list?

People always use the old lines such as Bailey not getting enough out of the players and for not instilling passion or not having the respect of players. All statements which we know nothing about, as we are not in the inner sanctum. Maybe he does all the right things, just the players cant follow through with them. I dont know the answers, but I do love reading how everyone thinks others could be doing better.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Tactically he is disappointing & he was very poor last week and he has not yet been able to develop player like Dunn, Miller, Newton & others.

I am not sure how much more development you can get out of Miller, Newton and Dunn who are either not up to the AFL standard or are warming seats for better options to come.

On the flip side I have seen Davey, Frawley, Garland, Morton, Warnock, Jurrah PetterdJamar improve considerably. I see our future in those players not the NQRs you list.

[burn in hell 0]

12 of those 23 retired

3 left for other clubs

Valenti and Buckley we should have kept instead of keeping Healy & Meeson

and the rest were poor players.

I was with Bailey until this year. The performances of the playing group are unexcusable. Somebody must take responsibility.

We have enough good mature players to avoid such insipid performances.

Certain MFC people might just be having ILLUSIONS OF GRANDEUR.

ps. Voss had the courage to get rid of good players of which we picked up one of his discards. Lets see how well Joel McDonald goes.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,673]

1. Simon Buckley

Why did we delist Buckley, but re-sign Bartram for 2 years and then not even bother playing him round 1?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

12 of those 23 retired

3 left for other clubs

Valenti and Buckley we should have kept instead of keeping Healy & Meeson

and the rest were poor players.

I was with Bailey until this year. The performances of the playing group are unexcusable. Somebody must take responsibility.

We have enough good mature players to avoid such insipid performances.

Certain MFC people might just be having ILLUSIONS OF GRANDEUR.

ps. Voss had the courage to get rid of good players of which we picked up one of his discards. Lets see how well Joel McDonald goes.

I think there are a few posters with greater illusions of grandeur!

One of MFC problems is that 1. we dont have enough good mature players and 2. and many of the players who fit that category

except Junior and Green went missing big time on Saturday. We have too many young players exposed at any one time and we aare getting phyisically monstered. Our best players on Saturday were Scully, Trengove, Jordie and Grimes. Great individual pperformance but a very depressing reflection on the "enough good mature players" you think we have.

And Bailey does not have the courage to get rid of good players.... You're kidding..There have been some hard decisions made.... TJ, McLean, Robbo (purely emotional). Also the careful retirement of Neitz, White and Yze.

Neither Meesen or healy are close to an AFL game. Valenti and Buckley arent AFL standard. So I am not sure what the issue is there?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Why did we delist Buckley, but re-sign Bartram for 2 years and then not even bother playing him round 1?

Buckely cant hit a target and has no accountability. Bartram is at least some sort of tagger but is not preferred at this point to Bennell. BTW, Bartram was one of the final players re contracted so he was not a shoo in for Rd 1.

[45HG 1,539]

Why did we delist Buckley, but re-sign Bartram for 2 years and then not even bother playing him round 1?

You could also ask why Collingwood signed Buckley only to not even bother playing him round 1?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You could also ask why Collingwood signed Buckley only to not even bother playing him round 1?

Come on they like the name! I am sure they have offered Nikki B a Lexus coterie membership B)

[burn in hell 0]

I think there are a few posters with greater illusions of grandeur!

One of MFC problems is that 1. we dont have enough good mature players and 2. and many of the players who fit that category

except Junior and Green went missing big time on Saturday. We have too many young players exposed at any one time and we aare getting phyisically monstered. Our best players on Saturday were Scully, Trengove, Jordie and Grimes. Great individual pperformance but a very depressing reflection on the "enough good mature players" you think we have.

And Bailey does not have the courage to get rid of good players.... You're kidding..There have been some hard decisions made.... TJ, McLean, Robbo (purely emotional). Also the careful retirement of Neitz, White and Yze.

Neither Meesen or healy are close to an AFL game. Valenti and Buckley arent AFL standard. So I am not sure what the issue is there?

Players getting monstered is not about size but about attitude. Look at James McDonald.

TJ had a problem and had to go, McLean chose to leave and Robbo was getting lazy and big headed, I wouldn't say these decisions were courageous.

Good mature players, let me name a few, Bruce, Green, 2 x McDonald, rivers, warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Frawley, Dunn, Davey. The rest are very talented youngsters. It dosnt bother me that we lose as long as we lose with respect.

[Hannabal 4]

The key to it all IMHO. We lack on-field leadership, and have done for years.

"Stars" are usually the best leaders, so the two go hand in hand.

I've been banging on about it for years. Until we unearth a couple of genuine stars, i.e. champions of the AFL and not just champions of our club, then we'll remain starved of the type of success that some of us crave.

(and I said "some" for a reason, as a flag isn't the be all and end all for some on here - each to their own)

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Players getting monstered is not about size but about attitude. Look at James McDonald.

TJ had a problem and had to go, McLean chose to leave and Robbo was getting lazy and big headed, I wouldn't say these decisions were courageous.

No its both. In many cases we had kids against men out there. With the senior players there is no excuse. I note Jordie was our highest tackle count with 11. What about the senior players pressure?

At the time of leaving TJ was arguably our most talented midfielder. His off field problems did not dictate that he had to go at all. He was not going to be around when MFC were going to be successdul in future. It was a brave move.

Up to last year McLean was in the top 3 player paid at MFC. MFC offered him a far lower contract and he decided to go. Once again a brave move given we lack experience and mature bodies in the midfield. We could have paid him more (and above his contribution to side) but we stuck to our guns. You just had to read to gush here about Robbo to see that not everyone could see why he had to go.

Good mature players, let me name a few, Bruce, Green, 2 x McDonald, rivers, warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Frawley, Dunn, Davey. The rest are very talented youngsters. It dosnt bother me that we lose as long as we lose with respect.

None of the players you list (ex Frawley) are better than C graders. Some are not even AFL standard. Your list highlights our problem and you cant see it! Its no wonder your confused with whats going on.

[burn in hell 0]

No its both. In many cases we had kids against men out there. With the senior players there is no excuse. I note Jordie was our highest tackle count with 11. What about the senior players pressure?

At the time of leaving TJ was arguably our most talented midfielder. His off field problems did not dictate that he had to go at all. He was not going to be around when MFC were going to be successdul in future. It was a brave move.

Up to last year McLean was in the top 3 player paid at MFC. MFC offered him a far lower contract and he decided to go. Once again a brave move given we lack experience and mature bodies in the midfield. We could have paid him more (and above his contribution to side) but we stuck to our guns. You just had to read to gush here about Robbo to see that not everyone could see why he had to go.

None of the players you list (ex Frawley) are better than C graders. Some are not even AFL standard. Your list highlights our problem and you cant see it! Its no wonder your confused with whats going on.

I can see why we can't make the finals, but there is no reason that we cant win the hard ball. No excuse. We were pathetic, did you not go to the game?

[Jarka 767]

"Stars" are usually the best leaders, so the two go hand in hand.

I've been banging on about it for years. Until we unearth a couple of genuine stars, i.e. champions of the AFL and not just champions of our club, then we'll remain starved of the type of success that some of us crave.

(and I said "some" for a reason, as a flag isn't the be all and end all for some on here - each to their own)

Spot on H

Good to see you break your self imposed exile

[Lost Highway 31]

I was at the game on the weekend and was apoplectic when the scoreboard read 12-92 midway through the third term. I felt that we haven't improved at all and wondered why the hell the club had extended Bailey's contract. With the scoreboard being kinder by the final siren and a few days days reflection my mood has changed somewhat and I now see why.

Fact 1. So far Bailey has delivered what he promised...

No, not two wooden spoons and numerous shitful performances (in b4 flame).

If I recall correctly Bailey promised to turn over the list and build a side through the draft since he took over in September 2007 the following players have either retired, have been traded or have been delisted;

etc....

Thoughtful and sensible in the main. Illuminating, even.

However, there's one consideration lacking from your analysis:

The team did not appear to play with the necessary spirit and determination. If you ask me, there was 'soul' missing.

The other team gets a few goals in front in the first 15 minutes and it's goodnight nurse. The team surrenders and Bailey makes no good tactical changes or revives their spirit. Even a couple of wild-card - but not too wild - moves like Rivers to CHF, Scully and Trengove into the very middle, Jamar to FP or whatever - anything at all that isn't on the loony side of adventurous - might suddenly discombobulate their opponents and rally the players. But no, you can see the team positively wither (if that's not an oxymoron) in the face of what it sees as a quickly growing mountain of goals. Under Bailey the side all floods back, and then floods forward to create a crowded forward line if the ball does happen to pass the centre line, several players going up for it and none crumbing.

So, OK, the closest players we've had to 'elite' in the past few years were Neita, Yze, White and Johnston (and probably Ox, in his cut-down way - you could see the A-grade player inside trying to get out of the knee-limited body, maybe Robbo for a couple of years). We actually had a competitive team there for a while. The current leadership don't measure up to those I've listed. But it's the absence of determination and the meek acceptance of fatal mistakes that gets me apoplectic. I can agree with everything you say, but still find there's something else amiss with this side. Even B-graders are supposed to run hard and bust their guts; did you really see that happening last Saturday? Only Green and Junior of the older players showed any real grit, and Junior just does no damage. My guess is, not having seen the NAB farces, that the players performed last Saturday like the same wet biscuits they have been through the pre-season. And the last two years. There's been NO SIGN OF CHANGE. It's just a fluke if Melbourne play differently - like that second half against Fremantle in 2008, or the first half of the last match against the Saints in 2009. It's up to Bailey to turn 'flukes' into regularities, whatever the quality of the players on his list.

[youami 54]

from tim harrington

bartram and jamar both signed 1 year contracts at the end of 2009. not sure where that other bloke is getting his info from, but the 2 year contract for batram is incorrect.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I can see why we can't make the finals, but there is no reason that we cant win the hard ball. No excuse. We were pathetic, did you not go to the game?

The start of the 3rd sentence should answer the end of your first sentence.

Sadly I went and then watched the game on replay!