BAILEY: defending time is over (thread revisited)

[Damo 3,012]

so that means that it was a total surprise that Cam Bruce cant handball? Miller cant mark? Rivers fumbles...

We knew this last year.

I think it is total arrogance to coat established capable professional footballers in [censored] by declaring they are not for us because they are over 23.

To not entertain paying late picks for Ball who may show you how the game is played, is simply stunning.

Who knows who else was available?

Look at Rhan Hooper, Fev, Hall, brock... not for whether they would get a game, but how they show onfield, why they were dealt for. They present as people wanting to prove themselves. We have only a few who feel that need.

Bailey is not living in the present and I dont believe his vision of the future is even close to real.

I have played football with people who dont want to play and i have played with kids busting a gut to be in the ones. because they get to play with good footballers. Melbourne have no incentive to try.

We are destroying hope.

And now we demonlanders are supposed to suck it up once more and succumb to crumbs of hope because someone invents a silver lining?

Not this little black duck. Not no more. Not "spot on" for me.

[Pipefitter 2,029]

Defending time for Bailey is definitely over. Gary Lyon was alarmed at the lack of spirit from the side as all of us supporters. Dean is well and truly under the pump from here on in. Do the players support their coach? They dont exactly defend him in the media? Footy experts seem to be on the same page as supporters canning Baileys set up's as well. Its really becoming clear he is doing a shocking job. As if the win-loss ratio wasn't showing that anyways. I will be happy to see him go really. He has never taken responisbility for how bad we have been under him. Constant "not competitive enough", "skills let us down". Isnt it your job to get the skills up? The players he already had at his disposal before drafting have not improved their skills at all since he came on board. What hope have we got for the kids?

[Jack7 463]

"Bailey hasn't focussed on drafting players that are good kicks because he doesn't think kicking is important."

That's just ridiculous,Strauss was drafted purely on his footskills!!!

Any AFL coach that thinks kicking isn't important should be looking for a new job.

Are we going to draft great handballers?

Every team is putting a huge premium on players with elite footskills to break through zones with pinpoint accuracy.

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

How do you improve skills? Can you make poorly skilled players skilled based on a few years of coaching when they are 27?

When those players were drafted and developed, the game did not require the same level of precision with kicking. If you could chip to an uncontested player, or slam the ball 50 metres down the line, then your skills were good enough. This was especially so when we changed our focus to bigger bodied players after we tried to emulate Brisbane's success.

But we have drafted players who can kick. You can only improve players' kicking so much. Some players have improved, but the level has generally been from a very low base and they are still not greta kicks (nor will they ever be). Players like Spencer and Martin are much better kicks now. They are kids, but the older players are as good now as they'll ever be.

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

Jack, I agree and that was my point. He's drafted players with very good footskills and made a point of getting good kicks to the club. These aren't the actions of a coach who doesn't believe kicking is important.

Maybe I should have worded it differently, but that was what I was trying to say.

We need to get into a position to kick the ball, but we need to release people inot space to use those skills by good attacking chains of handball.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

"Bailey hasn't focussed on drafting players that are good kicks because he doesn't think kicking is important."

That's just ridiculous,Strauss was drafted purely on his footskills!!!

Any AFL coach that thinks kicking isn't important should be looking for a new job.

Are we going to draft great handballers?

Every team is putting a huge premium on players with elite footskills to break through zones with pinpoint accuracy.

He meant 'Bailey clearly thinks kicking is important as he has drafted only players with good footskills' but I can see how it can be read the opposite way!

[Trisul 640]

Good young footballers are drafted because they have many natural skills - in our game one of the prime skills is kicking - our young players are quite capable of kicking well, even under pressure, as they have been doing it for years (and enjoying it).

A gameplan based on handball is not natural or productive (I will allow Barass' one game exception!) - the first instinct should be to kick - only use handball to release players where necessary and if possible. A 30-40 metre kick is far more productive than a loopy 20 m handball or a 1-2m pressure handball.

I am not advocating long bombs, but don't train young kids to be predictable, handballing, running robots. Football is a simple, kicking game - get that right and wins will come - I am confident our young kids will happily fight for a contested ball if the kick doesn't always work!

That's what I've been struggling with Hardnut. At the same time I keep telling myself that;

learning how to do, (control packs / stoppages / zone penetration)

feeling what not to do, (practice.. practice.. practice)

and what finding determination to {AFL} prevail means (..?..)

is as important as learning / doing what mostly works.

Especially early on in careers.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Trident

[Jack7 463]

Hird actually said to use handball to release players - not the panic, short rubbish we are seeing - a quick release and a good kick or two will work much better!

I just finished watching On The Couch and Hird did say the above,not what we did on Saturday.We are handballing far too much in the back half,each handball is being received with more pressure,turnovers arise,GOAL.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

And now we demonlanders are supposed to suck it up once more and succumb to crumbs of hope because someone invents a silver lining?

Not this little black duck. Not no more. Not "spot on" for me.

So what's the alternative Franky? Give up on football? Give up on Melbourne? Support the Pies? Maybe Gold Coast?

No-one is inventing a silver lining. Scully and Trengove running around like seasoned midfielders breaking lines and taking chances wasn't a figment of our collective imaginations. You're a smart guy, you know what we're going to get from the likes of Dunn, Bruce and Miller. You understand that youngsters like Spencer, Bennell and Strauss need time to find their feet. You understand that our list doesn't possess a key forward to demand the footy. You know that Bate was short of a gallop. You know that Morton, Sylvia, Garland and Jurrah are amongst our best and most exciting players. You agree that the quality of our best handful of players simply isn't a match for the rest of the competition right now. And hopefully you can see that this is about to change. We'd love to jump in a time machine and fast forward 2 or 3 years but we can't. It's easy to tell people like me that I accept mediocrity or that we're always being told that good times are just around the corner but perhaps this time the answer really is to simply be patient. The alternative, of course, is to spit the dummy on an internet forum but that's hardly productive is it?

[Lost Highway 31]

There's a fair bit of Bailey-defending here and some seeming wisdom about the cash-and-carry 'game-plan'.

Handball. There's too much of it, relative to total possessions. It's starting to remind me of the very black period of Balme's coaching time, which Gutnick brought suddenly to an end after a game in Adelaide that was, admittedly, far worse than last Saturday. Some are saying hand-balling IS the game-plan. They are also calling it 'run-and-carry'. I'm not convinced. I think it can equally be argued that hand-ball is a symptom of a total lack of confidence and a desperate need to rid oneself of responsibility as well as the ball. Hand-ball is to get the ball out of a tight situation as quickly as possible to someone, eventually, who is going full tilt towards goal and can kick the ball accurately. I don't see how one can use terms like 'hand-ball' and 'run-and-carry' in the same breath, actually. Carrying the ball is not hand-balling it. Most of our hand-balling is done when the players, both giving and receiving, are dancing in circles or standing still. Not running.

The other thing that sticks in my craw. 'Wait till our exciting young list gets games under their belts'. Bailey's 'coaching' a lot of these players for the third season now. They still play (and I use the term loosely) like they did in early 2008. OK, they are not as good as Scully, Trengove, etc. But they can be drilled. And they haven't been. The team does not play as if it has been 'coached'. When a team plays like Melbourne, mere chance ensures that there will be the occasional apparently incisive passage of play. At these times someone will say that the 'game-plan' is starting to work! Rubbish. Any good passage of play looks in retrospect like it was 'planned'. Six months on from the grand final and you would be forgiven for thinking that Melbourne was still playing the 2009 season. None of the posters making excuses for Bailey have explained plausibly WHY that is so.

[Jack7 463]

Jack, I agree and that was my point. He's drafted players with very good footskills and made a point of getting good kicks to the club. These aren't the actions of a coach who doesn't believe kicking is important.

Maybe I should have worded it differently, but that was what I was trying to say.

We need to get into a position to kick the ball, but we need to release people inot space to use those skills by good attacking chains of handball.

OK,maybe i read it wrong,at least we're all on the same page,can we get Bailey in on the discussion?

On every talkback radio show,newspaper and TV footy show,Bailey has been hammered about his gameplan.I'd be astounded if we didn't see something different against the Pies,in fact if we see the same,he's lost me forever.

Some senior players have to pull their finger out and show some desire,intensity and BALLS.If these same players play the same way against the Pies,i'd send them back to Casey for 4 weeks just like Matthews and Voss did to Travis.

Daniher didn't do it and it looks like Bailey won't either,this breeds complacency,"i won't get dropped"

[Goodvibes 3,596]

The other thing that sticks in my craw. 'Wait till our exciting young list gets games under their belts'. Bailey's 'coaching' a lot of these players for the third season now. They still play (and I use the term loosely) like they did in early 2008. OK, they are not as good as Scully, Trengove, etc. But they can be drilled. And they haven't been. The team does not play as if it has been 'coached'.

That's a fair call. Bob explained that many of the mid-tier and experienced players were coached, under Daniher, to play a very different style of game. They're obviously struggling to adjust. In some cases, they're simply not good enough to adjust. I highlighted in another thread Here! that was quickly drowned in a sea of negative threads, that confidence plays a crucial role. Many of the players that you're alluding to that Bailey has coach for 3 years have been on the end of some mother of all thrashings. Confidence levels must take a hiding. Late last year I spoke strongly about the long term cultural dangers of tanking. At the time I was in a very small majority of posters who were concern about developing a 'losers mentality'. Losing becomes part of the psyche, it's not easy to simply hit the switch and start winning. I still have great concerns that too many of our list have been negatively impacted by the scourge of deliberately losing. When confidence is low, skills and workrate drop off. The process of regaining confidence will take time. Bailey certainly has alot to prove but I'm convinced that his match day decisions are driven first and foremost by a desire to see his young players learn and develop. Without the core of senior leaders that Hawthorn, St Kilda and Footscray had throughout their respective rebuilding phases we're going to do it tough and at times it's going to be ugly and inconsistency is to be expected. How can we possibly expect to see a true reflection of Bailey's grand vision if so many of our class players are absent and those that are in the team are so young? If you don't like being told to be patient then look away now. Be patient!!!

[ICU2 Jerry Jerry 257]

That's a fair call. Bob explained that many of the mid-tier and experienced players were coached, under Daniher, to play a very different style of game. They're obviously struggling to adjust. In some cases, they're simply not good enough to adjust. I highlighted in another thread Here! that was quickly drowned in a sea of negative threads, that confidence plays a crucial role. Many of the players that you're alluding to that Bailey has coach for 3 years have been on the end of some mother of all thrashings. Confidence levels must take a hiding. Late last year I spoke strongly about the long term cultural dangers of tanking. At the time I was in a very small majority of posters who were concern about developing a 'losers mentality'. Losing becomes part of the psyche, it's not easy to simply hit the switch and start winning. I still have great concerns that too many of our list have been negatively impacted by the scourge of deliberately losing. When confidence is low, skills and workrate drop off. The process of regaining confidence will take time. Bailey certainly has alot to prove but I'm convinced that his match day decisions are driven first and foremost by a desire to see his young players learn and develop. Without the core of senior leaders that Hawthorn, St Kilda and Footscray had throughout their respective rebuilding phases we're going to do it tough and at times it's going to be ugly and inconsistency is to be expected. How can we possibly expect to see a true reflection of Bailey's grand vision if so many of our class players are absent and those that are in the team are so young? If you don't like being told to be patient then look away now. Be patient!!!

patient last year.

and the year before.

and the year before.

now is supposed to be the start of the climb.The game plan stinks we all know it deep down yet it hurts more to admit.

We will not win a flag with him at the helm.

Clarkson went 4,9,14,20(flag)wins in his first 4 years and that included a clean out. Bailey delivers 3,4 in two years and we give him an extension?

madness.

what is upsetting more than anything is the false hope the club sells us and has me dipping into my wallet to erase debt that bad administration run up, and then sell me a coach that clearly can't do the job, not tell me why I should be convinced by him, then tell me to be patient! We passed on Sheedy (even though that would have at least given us profile) and appoint a Dean "WHO" to the job. How is any of our list supposed to look at this guy and say "Yeah you must be right because you were a ripping player that contributed a lot to a side in the past" They simply can't.

I was all for giving Bails a go but when it's clear it isn't working we must stop it as soon as possible. Why waste another year? two spoons on the trot is more than enough.

Had we performed in the Nab cup/challenge any differently than last year and kicked more than 1 goal in our first half of 2010 you could argue means to stick to the course already plotted. But reality shows us that after the longest pre-season of all the clubs we are the least hungry least prepared and clearly the least drilled club in the competition. It makes me sick to wonder what the message to the top young kids we drafted is at the moment. Brock left saying he was stale with his footy at the dees, maybe this had something to do with playing a bad brand of footy? if this is true more will follow if this isn't addressed now.

Watching Footy Classified tonight and seeing the man that had such a major role in hiring Bailey (Lyon) squirm in his seat and clearly indicate his disapproval with the structures employed by Bails and the lack of spirit within the group (And Grant Thomas gave him a right Whack as well), just reaffirms my feeling that this year which should have been so exiting for us will be a blood bath come round 11.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

patient last year.

and the year before.

and the year before.

now is supposed to be the start of the climb.The game plan stinks we all know it deep down yet it hurts more to admit.

We will not win a flag with him at the helm.

Need a hug? Seriously, harden up.

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

Vibes, I was going to post something but your post is far more appropriate. It's also likely to be more effective in communicating to Clay at a level he'll undderstand.

And, I agree.

BTW, Brock was drafted to play the Danhier style of game. Slowly churning the legs over to grind his way into space. But as we've seen, the game is far more dynamic than when he was drafted. If he was worried about the game plan then he was right to be worried. It did not suit him at all and he made the right decision to leave - from all parties' perspectives.

[ICU2 Jerry Jerry 257]

Vibes, I was going to post something but your post is far more appropriate. It's also likely to be more effective in communicating to Clay at a level he'll undderstand.

And, I agree.

BTW, Brock was drafted to play the Danhier style of game. Slowly churning the legs over to grind his way into space. But as we've seen, the game is far more dynamic than when he was drafted. If he was worried about the game plan then he was right to be worried. It did not suit him at all and he made the right decision to leave - from all parties' perspectives.

Glad the club has supporters like you and Vibes the optimists who see the light in all club decisions because all clubs need them.

[bing181 8,208]

Daniher didn't do it and it looks like Bailey won't either,this breeds complacency,"i won't get dropped"

Well, given that he hasn't even selected a team for next week yet, hard to see how you're concluding "looks like Bailey won't either". Let's wait a few games to see what, if any, patterns emerge.

FWIW, Bailey is already on record as saying that players would have to earn their places. Though that was before we got hit with injuries, which clearly limits options, no matter what the selection panel would/wouldn't like to do.

B

[CarnTheDees 52]

That's a fair call. Bob explained that many of the mid-tier and experienced players were coached, under Daniher, to play a very different style of game.

For me that argument doesn't stack up because I can't see any major differences between Daniher 2007 and Bailey 2010: Overuse of handball in an attempt to control possession and 'tempo' at all costs, combined with slow, wide, indirect ball movement forward and pushing 2 or 3 forwards back into the midfield/defence.

Edited March 29, 2010 by CarnTheDees

[Goodvibes 3,596]

For me that argument doesn't stack up because I can't see any major differences between Daniher 2007 and Bailey 2010. I for one cannot see any: Overuse of handball in an attempt to control possession and 'tempo' at all costs, combined with slow, wide, indirect ball movement forward and pushing 2 or 3 forwards back into the midfield/defence.

You can't see any difference between Daniher 2007 and Bailey 2010? The similarities lie in the lack of leadership, the regular skills errors, lack of confidence and the general unwillingness to take the game on. These are skills and attitudinal factors. The gameplan is very very different.

[tarzan16 40]

I'm so sick and tired of defending Bailey that iv'e stopped. But being tired of it ain't the reason. The reason I have stopped defending this man is because there is simply nothing to defend anymore.

The "Game plan" seems to involve this "switching at all costs" which is dependant on all players having immaculate foot and hand skills which we simply don't. He simply had to change it this pre-season. He failed. He had 6 months to reset . . . He failed.

He will have to go and our administration once again will look like a basket-case having contracted and then sacked all in the same season.

He's media excuses to supporters are wearing too thin now. I can't hear "Competitive" and "Training" and "Confidence" anymore. Attitude reflects leadership and this poison from the top will breed contempt amongst all who follow.

MFC hear our call and tell us why you believe so unconditionally in this man?

Better still I want Bailey to tell us why we should. Because right now sitting here after 3 floggings in practice matches and a rd 1 belting I need to know why I should accept the team not improving

about time someone said it. 100% correct mate

[satyricon 267]

OK we have had one game, and we played atrociously, but I am still optimistic, the personnel in the team has changed dramatically, I expect it to keep changing.

Bailey has a plan, he gives players a chance and they need to take it, if they don't they end up back at Casey and then out of the door, it doesn't matter what your name is.

Can you see him putting up with the same effort from the senior players this week, I can't but they will need to keep it going week in and week out.

Our midfield will change dramatically, as will our forward line, why have we drafted so many midfielders in the last couple of drafts, obviously Bailey still sees something wrong with the players we have and wants to change.

What would happen if he picked a team all under the age of 21 and we got thrashed by 200 points, the howling would be deafening, he has to do it gradually, he is talking about building bodies, this takes time.

Unfortunaely we have been cruelled by injuries as well, what would Saturday have been like if we had Morton, Jurrah, Sylvia.....and Tapscott, Blease pushing for spots....it may have been a lot different.

I will turn up on Saturday, I expect to see an improved showing, I can't see a win, but 100% effort from everybody will do me.

We have to wait three years, we have waited so long now

[jnrmac 19,241]

Vibes, I was going to post something but your post is far more appropriate. It's also likely to be more effective in communicating to Clay at a level he'll undderstand.

And, I agree.

BTW, Brock was drafted to play the Danhier style of game. Slowly churning the legs over to grind his way into space. But as we've seen, the game is far more dynamic than when he was drafted. If he was worried about the game plan then he was right to be worried. It did not suit him at all and he made the right decision to leave - from all parties' perspectives.

Brock and Sylvia were drafted because we had no inside mids and needed tough nuts who could get the pill out to players like Johnstone. Same as Beemer and Jones.

[jnrmac 19,241]

Bailey hasn't focussed on drafting players that are good kicks because he doesn't think kicking is important.

That quote is so wide of the mark. Its exactly who they have been trying to recruit. Blease, Strauss etc. Check this quote from BPrendergast: Melbourne is not saying officially who it will draft on Thursday night, but Prendergast admits that, in the grand final forever being played in his mind, he sees the need for ''some blokes who can deliver the ball to Jack and Liam in the forward line''.

[Age 381]

FWIW, My thoughts on the gameplan and our play in general are this:

- I don't think we handball at all costs, even though it seems it, I reckon more the point is that the players are so scared to make a mistake themselves that they would rather give it off to someone else, no matter what their position, so it is not them that directly makes the mistake. This is confidence, when we get some confidence, then maybe players will back themselves to hit a target by foot, instead of the easy option of handballing a metre (which we do still stuff up at times though!)

- I saw someone ask if you coach awareness. This definitely is a big problem, we call for the ball when we under the pump way too much, players need to more aware of what is around them. Obviously the person giving the handball needs to be aware of whats around but with the game being so quick, a lot of play is instinct now, hear a call, give it off, you stop to see if they are free and will get caught.

- Did anyone think when watching saturdays game that it felt like watching u/11's play? Our whole team seemed to run at the ball, whilst the hawks just sat back and surrounded us so that when we did get the ball out, it came straight to them. This again comes back to confidence, the hawks backed their players to go in and get the ball and get it out to them, we just seemed to think that everyone needed to get the ball. We get confidence and we won't have 15 players trying to get the ball, they will back the few in there to get it and wait for them to get it to them. Is why Geelong do so well, they back ablett, bartell etc to get the ball and give it to them, hence their play seems really open.

- Confidence and belief, we have none. The good teams back themselves and also their own players to beat their opposition most times so they will go to a 1 on 1 if no better option. We don't even seem to want the 1 on 1 as I don't think the players believe that the player they are kicking to will win the ball, instead they will look back for a release and like I said in the first point, give it off so they arent the one making the mistake.

- We have no structure at all up forward. This is what causes a lot of the indecision and mucking around in the back half. Why would the backs want to bust a nut getting the ball out, knowing it will be back in 15 seconds time? All our plans seem to be contingent on Watts being John Coleman, whilst I hope he is, our track record of picking a good tall forward hasnt been the greatest of late. Jurrah is a part answer, but he needs a key forward to take the focus off him.

- Finally, I just feel we are too defensive, but this probably comes from the fear of getting smacked each week. Personally though I would prefer what Essendon adopted a year or two ago and just attacked at all costs, as silly as it seems, I could handle a 10 goal loss if we kicked 15 goals in the process. At least then an attacking gameplan would be in place for when we were up and running.

It is hard to judge Bailey's real gameplan (assuming he has one!) as I dont think we have the players to implement what he wants, due mainly to the older/middle tier players just not being up to it. The kids look good, but what do they have to learn off?

Just some of my thoughts, think of them what you will...

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

Yep, that's definitely right jnrmac. But the game was being played differently when they were drafted. Brisbane had just won a bunch of flags and 'big bodies' were in vogue. We had some very good finishers like Johnstone and Yze and lacked inside grunt.

Sylvia's speed, powerful kicking and power running has actually suited the new style of game very well. He's now one of our best players, if not our best. Funnily enough, Colin struggled earlier in his career because he didn't naturally know how to win the footy, but he made up for that with his raw power game. Brock, conversely, started his career well because he was a natural footballer despite not being particularly gifted athletically. This didn't matter because he won the inside ball and was able to grind his way into space, which was available in games in 2004.

As the years have progressed and the game has changed, Sylvia has started to dominate games while Brock has plateaued. But Brock was, and still is, a wonderful 2004 footballer. But he's not a great 2010 footballer and is likely to be a worse 2014 footballer. Sylvia's power makes him a better 2010 footballer and a better 2014 footballer.

The point I am making is that we have some very good 2004 footballers. Bruce, Green, Junior, Moloney, Jones. But, generally, they aren't suited to the 2010 game of dynamic ball carrying and running through lines with chains of handball. We have group of players who are naturally suited to playing the 2014 style, but they are currently so young that they don't make a big difference. But they will. We just have to be patient enough and focus on developing the properly.

As for the second quote, that was exactly what I was saying. I've already clarified it an earlier post. The sentence could be read two ways, but I was meaning that we aren't just relying on handball as can be seen by our drafting focus on good footskills.