Schwab answers a twitter on the game

[melbournefc18 4]

@CamSchwab Can you pass on a message to the coach? We'd like to see the boys KICK THE BALL. No more excuses. No more game plan rubbish. KICK

Schwab answers with this:

@OnyaMag Wish it was that simple Onya. Hawks pressure was very good. That is the level we need to get to.

Explain please Cameron

[w00dy 146]

poor thread I say...

i have no doubt bailey wants the players to kick the ball more... but in order to kick the ball you need to have a target to kick it to down the field, rather than just blazing away and turning it over... notiing annoys me more than people at the footy screaming "kick the bloody thing!!!" because they're obviously people who don't understand how modern footy is played...

[MikeyJ 60]

I thought he was being more than generous by responding to your tweet.

[Allen Jakovich 516]

poor thread I say...

i have no doubt bailey wants the players to kick the ball more... but in order to kick the ball you need to have a target to kick it to down the field, rather than just blazing away and turning it over... notiing annoys me more than people at the footy screaming "kick the bloody thing!!!" because they're obviously people who don't understand how modern footy is played...

Exactly, well responded to by Shwabby too. Some supporters don't even understand how you play the game.

[Gorgoroth 12,921]

Hard to kick it when you have no one in front of the ball to kick it to.

How about leaving 2 or 3 in the F50 so we do have someone to kick it to.

[furious d 463]

@CamSchwab Can you pass on a message to the coach? We'd like to see the boys KICK THE BALL. No more excuses. No more game plan rubbish. KICK

Schwab answers with this:

@OnyaMag Wish it was that simple Onya. Hawks pressure was very good. That is the level we need to get to.

Explain please Cameron

It's twitter ffs, you want a detailed explination in 30 words or less. Not setting Cam much of a task.

If we were to return to the Daniher plan now, which is exactly what @onyamag is advocating, I'd tear up my membership. Modern football is a possession game. Check Geelong's handball to kick ratio. We will end up with another group of senior players unable to play the modern game. It was the kick it long Daniher plan, or lack of plan if truth be told, that got us in this mess in the first place. It's part of the reason our players consistently miss targets, it wasn't a requirement to play for the Rev.

[titan_uranus 24,973]

Vanlo is right on this one.

Nothing frustrates me more than sitting in the MCC and hearing everyone around me screaming 'Kick the bloody thing!'.

They would if they had someone to kick it to. But they don't.

The answer isn't just to ditch the handpass and kick the ball at every opportunity. It is to ensure that we have targets to aim for in the forward line, even if they're not great AFL players. But leaving some players forward, and getting them to start far enough away from the ball carrier to allow them to lead towards said ball carrier, will mean our players will naturally begin to kick more.

[Choko 493]

Vanlo is right on this one.

Nothing frustrates me more than sitting in the MCC and hearing everyone around me screaming 'Kick the bloody thing!'.

They would if they had someone to kick it to. But they don't.

The answer isn't just to ditch the handpass and kick the ball at every opportunity. It is to ensure that we have targets to aim for in the forward line, even if they're not great AFL players. But leaving some players forward, and getting them to start far enough away from the ball carrier to allow them to lead towards said ball carrier, will mean our players will naturally begin to kick more.

Yes and no. Sometimes there is no-one to kick it to because instead of backing our forwards with a quick kick, we screw around for ages in the backline and Hawks get opportunity to get men back. By handballing over and over, law of averages is that you will turn it over. And instead of turning it over in the forwardline, it is on the half back line. I think Bailey failed to pick players or set up a structure that gave any confidence to the players that the ball may stay in the forward line if it spilled.

[titan_uranus 24,973]

Yes and no. Sometimes there is no-one to kick it to because instead of backing our forwards with a quick kick, we screw around for ages in the backline and Hawks get opportunity to get men back. By handballing over and over, law of averages is that you will turn it over. And instead of turning it over in the forwardline, it is on the half back line. I think Bailey failed to pick players or set up a structure that gave any confidence to the players that the ball may stay in the forward line if it spilled.

I think this could be an easy chicken and egg debate. Do the forwards push up because we fumble around with it in the middle, or we fumble around with it in the middle because the forwards push up (thus meaning we can't move forward easily)?

I can't think of any other team that combines both. So I guess the answer is both (i.e. we suck in the middle and we suck at positioning). But I'd like to see us at least try to get our forwards to hold their position.

[Choko 493]

I think this could be an easy chicken and egg debate. Do the forwards push up because we fumble around with it in the middle, or we fumble around with it in the middle because the forwards push up (thus meaning we can't move forward easily)?

I can't think of any other team that combines both. So I guess the answer is both (i.e. we suck in the middle and we suck at positioning). But I'd like to see us at least try to get our forwards to hold their position.

Hawthorn forwards push up the ground too. I don't think that's the issue. I reckon the issue is that the players lack confidence to kick it to a contest, and with good reason. We have a terrible forward line, and worse still, cannot keep it in there if the forwards manage to bring the ball to ground. So instead, we try to break the lines by hand, but we do not have the skills. We would be far better kicking it to advantage of our forwards. If they are not good enough, well that's where we are at. But pick a side that will give us half a go when the ball goes to ground. Law of averages. 15 handballs on the backline, turnover. 50 inside 50s, more scores that 30 inside 50s.

[titan_uranus 24,973]

Hawthorn forwards push up the ground too. I don't think that's the issue. I reckon the issue is that the players lack confidence to kick it to a contest, and with good reason. We have a terrible forward line, and worse still, cannot keep it in there if the forwards manage to bring the ball to ground. So instead, we try to break the lines by hand, but we do not have the skills. We would be far better kicking it to advantage of our forwards. If they are not good enough, well that's where we are at. But pick a side that will give us half a go when the ball goes to ground. Law of averages. 15 handballs on the backline, turnover. 50 inside 50s, more scores that 30 inside 50s.

Don't agree that Hawthorn's forward push up the ground, and if they do, they don't push as far. I didn't see at any time yesterday the entire 36 in Hawthorn's defensive half of the ground. That happened to us at least 3 different times.

I agree, though, that we'd be better off kicking to a contest than handballing in circles. I've always believed that, if you're going to turn it over, do it at half forward, not half back. If a player's in trouble, I'd prefer a long kick to a contest, or even to no-one, rather than an attempt to get out of jail by handpassing to a flat-footed teammate.

[tez 6]

It's twitter ffs, you want a detailed explination in 30 words or less. Not setting Cam much of a task.

If we were to return to the Daniher plan now, which is exactly what @onyamag is advocating, I'd tear up my membership. Modern football is a possession game. Check Geelong's handball to kick ratio. We will end up with another group of senior players unable to play the modern game. It was the kick it long Daniher plan, or lack of plan if truth be told, that got us in this mess in the first place. It's part of the reason our players consistently miss targets, it wasn't a requirement to play for the Rev.

love how some still bag the rev and blame him for all of this, seriously bailey has had 3 yrs and what gets me most is we have been training the longest this season in and are still behind by 3 yrs

[Kiss of Death 747]

Much better to thump it 50m to a contest on the boundary instead of 20m to a contest on the boundary if there's no get-out-of-jail-free option available.

Completely agreed on the 'targets required' comments though - how often did we see Demons trailing 10m behind their opponents who were running into space, while each time we ran out, they were either side by side or there was a Hawk already in the hole.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

but in order to kick the ball you need to have a target to kick it to down the field

Go back to round 1, 2007 and you will find that this has been a problem since then.

[demons27 1]

love how some still bag the rev and blame him for all of this, seriously bailey has had 3 yrs and what gets me most is we have been training the longest this season in and are still behind by 3 yrs

Finally someone has the gonads to question the ability of the coach. We are meant to have the most promising list going around, but our performances are not reflecting this.....excuse after excuse after excuse.......if he was a CEO, Bailey would be at Centrelink now and the Board would hire someone with passion, commitment and good football credentials + a game plan that everyone understands.

[Retrospective 104]

It's twitter ffs, you want a detailed explination in 30 words or less. Not setting Cam much of a task.

If we were to return to the Daniher plan now, which is exactly what @onyamag is advocating, I'd tear up my membership. Modern football is a possession game. Check Geelong's handball to kick ratio. We will end up with another group of senior players unable to play the modern game. It was the kick it long Daniher plan, or lack of plan if truth be told, that got us in this mess in the first place. It's part of the reason our players consistently miss targets, it wasn't a requirement to play for the Rev.

1. I reckon you could easily put our strategy into 30 words for twitter... I reckon you could get it into one word, 6 letters

2. If you reckon Daniher is still the problem do you think Northey's time is also holding us back.....we need to get real. 3 years in and we are still rooted in the past.....very rooted

[Oliver Hill 0]

You've got to love supporters that are so antiquated in their views that they think that "kick the ball!!" is how modern footy is played.

[Roost It 1,434]

@CamSchwab Can you pass on a message to the coach? We'd like to see the boys KICK THE BALL. No more excuses. No more game plan rubbish. KICK

Schwab answers with this:

@OnyaMag Wish it was that simple Onya. Hawks pressure was very good. That is the level we need to get to.

Explain please Cameron

You clearly have no idea about modern football.

[QueenC 74]

I thought he was being more than generous by responding to your tweet.

Go back to round 1, 2007 and you will find that this has been a problem since then.

And something you have been talking about since then......

But I agree with Titan Uranus, who said that this is a chicken and egg situation, as there are clearly severe problems with both elements.

We have no dominant forwards (maybe one day, maybe soon, but not today), however we also fart arse about with the ball, and have a tendency to turn it over somewhere on the wing,

this I fear would happen at least some, if not most of the time no matter who we had up there.

A confident forward would be great and is totally a necessity, but so would some basic mid field skills to get it there.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

And something you have been talking about since then......

But I agree with Titan Uranus, who said that this is a chicken and egg situation, as there are clearly severe problems with both elements.

We have no dominant forwards (maybe one day, maybe soon, but not today), however we also fart arse about with the ball, and have a tendency to turn it over somewhere on the wing,

this I fear would happen at least some, if not most of the time no matter who we had up there.

A confident forward would be great and is totally a necessity, but so would some basic mid field skills to get it there.

Melbourne's players are capable of hitting targets, that's not the issue. It surely can't be that Melbourne has somehow managed to draft the only players who can't kick. Strauss, Grimes, Trengove, Davey, Green and Bennell are all capable of hitting targets, but we saw them miss players and fluff kicks yesterday. As Cameron Schwab mentioned they miss targets becuase Hawthorn put Melbourne under pressure.

Pressure comes from the fact that Hawthorn are a better drilled team and want the ball more. But there is also another factor that has been clear since round 1, 2007 that other people are only now starting to pick up on. That is, there are no options up forward. And by "forward", I don't just mean the forward line, I mean forward of the ball. Furthermore, by "options" I mean anyone, not just big forwards.

The point is, if a player has the ball on the half back line, looks up and has no options up forward then they are forced to chip and handpass ("fart arse") sideways. If there are clear options (players who aren't outnumbered) up forward then they don't need to. The more time spent chipping and handpassing around means the more time Hawthorn had to apply pressure to the ball carrier who is looking for options. The more pressure the ball carrier is under the more likely they are to turn the ball over.

[QueenC 74]

Fair enough, but that "confidence" in their team mates is simply not there.....

They don't appear to trust that someone will run for them, create space, and couple that with opposition pressure (which all are just going to have

to learn to deal with) we get what we witnessed on Saturday. It hopefully will get better with time, but it is disheartening to watch.

[titan_uranus 24,973]

Fair enough, but that "confidence" in their team mates is simply not there.....

They don't appear to trust that someone will run for them, create space, and couple that with opposition pressure (which all are just going to have

to learn to deal with) we get what we witnessed on Saturday. It hopefully will get better with time, but it is disheartening to watch.

Definitely a chicken/egg thing going on here, as I would say that it's the way they're playing that's causing them to lose confidence, rather than their loss of confidence making them play the way they are.

But whichever way you look at it, it's the same problem at heart.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Fair enough, but that "confidence" in their team mates is simply not there.....

They don't appear to trust that someone will run for them, create space, and couple that with opposition pressure (which all are just going to have

to learn to deal with) we get what we witnessed on Saturday. It hopefully will get better with time, but it is disheartening to watch.

I think that's probably why Bailey keeps talking about not only getting games into players but having the core of the team play 50 or 60 games together. The chemistry of the team is massively different to the team of round 1 2009 and unrecognisable when compared to the team Bailey inherited. People who understand football keep using words like "patience" and "time" for a reason. It's hard to stomach but this team is younger than last years and much younger than the one smashed by Hawthorn 2 years ago. Not only are they younger but they're youngest where it matters most - in the middle! I'm as disappointed as the next person but the source of my disappointment are the same players who've disappointed me for some time. And it's for that reason that I can probably move on more quickly than most. I saw the future yesterday and it wasn't all bad. Any team with three dominant, centre-square midfielders will go a long way to winning games. Yesterday, Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis proved that. In a couple of years and maybe even a couple of months, Grimes, Scully and Trengove will do the same.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Goodvibes

[Face Your Demons 175]

Hard to kick it when you have no one in front of the ball to kick it to.

How about leaving 2 or 3 in the F50 so we do have someone to kick it to.

The number of time a player looked up to kick and had to handpass because no one was downfield was sad yesterday. Maybe i had just built myself up for this game, but yesterday was one of the saddest days at the footy i can remember.

[bing181 9,193]

Nice thread!

Something that's also clear is how the lack of "stars" up forward is not helping the younger players. You're a young player in the middle, you get the ball, and you know that all you have to do is get it down there somehow, and a Buddy or a Roughead will probably do the rest. You don't have to think about what to do, you don't have to try and hold the ball up till someone gets there for you, you don't have to decide between a Millar (unreliable) or a Petterd (out-numbered).

So, you just do what you have to, and you look efficient and decisive. Then Buddy (or whoever) gets on the end of it and slams it through, you get a big pat on the back from all and sundry. You feel great, and not only do you do the same thing next time, you're desperate to do the same thing every chance you have.

Confidence breeds confidence.

Most of our players would look very different in a top-4 side.

B