TRAINING TODAY 8/2/10

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

curious to see how crystal balls appear with such limiting portrayals of future developments.

The reality is we cant know how high a player might climb til they are done and dusted.

The reality is that Flower was good player in his first year in 1973. He started becoming an awesome player from 1974 onwards and continued until his retirement 13 years later.

Davey has not been in Flowers orbit to date. He's a good player but he is going to have to be something special to sit alongside Flower. Outstanding if he does. But it will be no disgrace if he doesn't.

I'd like to think there will be others on our list that will emulate the performance of FLower. Make that hope.

[grazman 7,432]

There has been no one of Flower's quality since he retired in 1987.

A few contenders but nowhere near the all round quality that Flower possessed

Absolutely spot on.

[loges 6,767]

never say never !!

who of say the modern era ( Dees ) would you put next to Flower ?

Would only consider Adam Yze at his absolute peak as coming close and even he falls short

[e25 5]

Hey Keyser, there's nothing wrong with optimism at this time of year! We are trying to build our membership base, and a large large % of prospective first time members are genuinely optimistic for the first time in the best part of a decade. Don't be such a 'party pooper'!! (tongue slightly in cheek).

Optimism I agree is great and it is needed, but I think KS has a point about tempering our expectations.

[e25 5]

Would only consider Adam Yze at his absolute peak as coming close and even he falls short

Really?

You rated Yze that high?

[loges 6,767]

Really?

You rated Yze that high?

Only at his peak certainly not his last few years.Had most disposals in the league one year and was very skilfull

[e25 5]

Only at his peak certainly not his last few years.Had most disposals in the league one year and was very skilfull

Fair enough.

He was always solid, but I thought there were others closer to flower's brilliance.

[grazman 7,432]

Only at his peak certainly not his last few years.Had most disposals in the league one year and was very skilfull

Probably preaching to the converted, but anyway.

Yze played some pretty good footy in some pretty good sides (albeit not premiership sides) there were also some lean years. Flower unfortunately (apart from 87) played in some pretty bloody awful sides. Flower was simply sublime - IMO his star shone even brighter when given the chance to play with better footballers in State of Origin... simply my opinion, but I think he'd receive more universal recognition and praise from beyond the red and blue if he'd played in greater sides.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

Only at his peak certainly not his last few years.Had most disposals in the league one year and was very skilfull

In 2002 Adem Yze's foot skills were unbelievable,

He had a superb year.

Flower had 14 and that is no offence to Adem. That is just how good Robbie was (saw his first game in '73\. He was good even then)

[DemonDan... 77]

HT, let's get a little serious here.Davey is not a champion at this stage, he has not one a game off his own boot,(AS THE SAYING GOES),he is a very good footballer, currently MFC best.However not in the class of possibly the best 50 in the league..

Dunno why KS started with this 'winning a match off your own boot' -

The Dees have been lucky to win AT ALL in the last 3 years, let alone someone doing it off their own boot!!

G .Abletts about the only player thats done it more than once or twice in recent times, Judds only done it maybe a couple since joining the Blues, compared to every 2nd game a few years back.

Not the only criteria one should use when trying to guestimate if a player should be considered a champion or not.

Love your enthusiasm - Not going to happen

Dont see why it cant RI - if he continues to improve.. esp if he's apart of the leadership group that gets us our 1st premiership since, forever.

The reality is that Flower was good player in his first year in 1973. He started becoming an awesome player from 1974 onwards and continued until his retirement 13 years later.

Davey has not been in Flowers orbit to date. He's a good player but he is going to have to be something special to sit alongside Flower. Outstanding if he does. But it will be no disgrace if he doesn't.

Flower was absolutely dads favorite player. Remember growing up, talking about and focussing on robbie more than most. I think daveys well within flowers 'orbit'.

He is just as good as disposal as flower, definately quicker and he takes on and attacks the game as well as anyone for the club has and he's a smart player, that has expanded his repertoire in being able to play in any part of the ground.

But yeah, needs the next 4 or 5 years at the level he produced in 09', hopefully with improvement, to consolidate being within Flowers 'ballpark' - again, really hope/feel/believe he can.

(highlighted the text in bold, cause i thought that was a good way of putting it, tho i would have said 'great' player - potential true champion)

Also, I think weve forgotton, davey has also produced some of the most mercurial goals and plays we've ever seen at MFC - 'daicos'eque on many occaision!

Not sure who brought it up, but i think garry lyon was as good and as skilled as, if not better than flower!

Tying in with another part of the conversation, he was the last player we've had that did win games off his own boot.. ah, good times!!

Edited February 10, 2010 by DemonDan...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Probably preaching to the converted, but anyway.

Yze played some pretty good footy in some pretty good sides (albeit not premiership sides) there were also some lean years. Flower unfortunately (apart from 87) played in some pretty bloody awful sides. Flower was simply sublime - IMO his star shone even brighter when given the chance to play with better footballers in State of Origin... simply my opinion, but I think he'd receive more universal recognition and praise from beyond the red and blue if he'd played in greater sides.

Hit the nail on the head Graz.

G .Abletts about the only player thats done it more than once or twice in recent times, Judds only done it maybe a couple since joining the Blues, compared to every 2nd game a few years back.

Not the only criteria one should use when trying to guestimate if a player should be considered a champion or not.

Pavlich, Brown, Black, S.Johnson, Riewoldt, Hayes, Cooney just to name a few.....

Flower was absolutely dads favorite player. Remember growing up, talking about and focussing on robbie more than most. I think daveys well within flowers 'orbit'.

He is just as good as disposal as flower, definately quicker and he takes on and attacks the game as well as anyone for the club has and he's a smart player, that has expanded his repertoire in being able to play in any part of the ground.

But yeah, needs the next 4 or 5 years at the level he produced in 09', hopefully with improvement, to consolidate being within Flowers 'ballpark' - again, really hope/feel/believe he can.

(highlighted the text in bold, cause i thought that was a good way of putting it, tho i would have said 'great' player - potential true champion)

Also, I think weve forgotton, davey has also produced some of the most mercurial goals and plays we've ever seen at MFC - 'daicos'eque on many occaision!

Not sure who brought it up, but i think garry lyon was as good and as skilled as, if not better than flower!

Tying in with another part of the conversation, he was the last player we've had that did win games off his own boot.. ah, good times!!

Did you actually see Flower play? Flower could play and dominate positions from FF to CHB including the midfield. Strong in the air and exquisite on the ground and fast and agile. Not as fast as Davey over 30 metres but as deft of touch and balance. Davey is predominantly a left foot kick with distances of up to 50 metres. Flower could kick either foot and snagged goals up to 60 metres. He was also a terrific snap for goal as well. Flower could dominate games for four quarters and do so in some of the most awful MFC sides. Both Davey and Flower have played a dog awful sides (Flower for longer) but where Flower shone we have seen bits and pieces of Davey's brilliance. He is not in Flower's vicinity but 4 to 5 year top line years would put him up with near the Lyons, Vineys , Alan Johnsons, Neitz etc. Lyon is not in Flowers ball park either. A very good player and captain but his best years were cruelled by back injury. And no where near as strong overhead as Flower was

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

Robbie Flower could fly through the air, not just leap but Fly & considering how average his eyesight was, it was just incredible what he did.

Week after Week. The wider football audience only really saw how good he was when he played in the Big V jumper.

i cannot remember Flower ever playing 4 Quarters of poor football. He always did something in each game.

I am hoping one of our new recruits gets close to the absolute class of Robert Flower.

[Oliver Hill 0]

Flower was absolutely dads favorite player. Remember growing up, talking about and focussing on robbie more than most. I think daveys well within flowers 'orbit'.

He is just as good as disposal as flower, definately quicker and he takes on and attacks the game as well as anyone for the club has and he's a smart player, that has expanded his repertoire in being able to play in any part of the ground.

Good God man. Your Father would be gobsmacked if he's still alive. Davey would be lucky to spit and polish Flower's boots. Flower had courage, grace like has rarely been seen, was as good a mark as you'll ever see from a midfielder, and at his peak was the best player in the competition. In state games he outshone the very best players in the league. Think a shorter, leaner, faster and more agile James Hird.

He should have been named on the wing in the AFL's TOC ahead of Greig. It cuts me to the quick to this day that he wasn't. But alas, he played in [censored] sides.

Davey will never be in the same stratosphere.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Oliver Hill

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Did you actually see Flower play? Flower could play and dominate positions from FF to CHB including the midfield. Strong in the air and exquisite on the ground and fast and agile. Not as fast as Davey over 30 metres but as deft of touch and balance. Davey is predominantly a left foot kick with distances of up to 50 metres. Flower could kick either foot and snagged goals up to 60 metres. He was also a terrific snap for goal as well. Flower could dominate games for four quarters and do so in some of the most awful MFC sides. Both Davey and Flower have played a dog awful sides (Flower for longer) but where Flower shone we have seen bits and pieces of Davey's brilliance. He is not in Flower's vicinity but 4 to 5 year top line years would put him up with near the Lyons, Vineys , Alan Johnsons, Neitz etc. Lyon is not in Flowers ball park either. A very good player and captain but his best years were cruelled by back injury. And no where near as strong overhead as Flower was

Agreed. Nobody I have ever seen at the MFC has ever got close to the skills I saw Robbie display. I remember seeing him about to get tackled by two Collingwood players and he blind turn spun past the both of them and slotted a goal. The day I got to meet him in the rooms still is as vivid as it was when I was a kid.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Good God man. Your Father would be gobsmacked if he's still alive. Davey would be lucky to spit and polish Flower's boots. Flower had courage, grace like has rarely been seen, was as good a mark as you'll ever see from a midfielder, and at his peak was the best player in the competition. In state games he outshone the very best players in the league. Think a shorter, leaner, faster and more agile James Hird.

He should have been named on the wing in the AFL's TOC ahead of Greig on the wing. It cuts me to the quick to this day that he wasn't. But alas, he played in [censored] sides.

Davey will never be in the same stratosphere.

Good summary and I agree about the AFL TOC. Schimma was better than Greig.

Agreed. Nobody I have ever seen at the MFC has ever got close to the skills I saw Robbie display. I remember seeing him about to get tackled by two Collingwood players and he blind turn spun past the both of them and slotted a goal. The day I got to meet him in the rooms still is as vivid as it was when I was a kid.

Yes there are many of those memories.

I remember at VFL Park on a day when a player actually played and was responsible for a direct opponent when Flower played on Ken Fletcher a quick skilful 200 game Essendon wingman (dad of Dustin) who had Big V honours around that stage. Time and time again in direct contests for an open ball, Flower outfoxed, outskilled and dumbfounded Fletcher that he was humilated as the game wore on and Flower played another skilful manoeuvre on him. As someone else said sublime.

We have had some good players since who can all point to a great year here and there, But there was no one , no one in Flowers class since 1987. Had Flower played for MFC from 1953 and not 1973, we would be ushering his name in the same league as Barassi and Smith.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

Probably preaching to the converted, but anyway.

Yze played some pretty good footy in some pretty good sides (albeit not premiership sides) there were also some lean years. Flower unfortunately (apart from 87) played in some pretty bloody awful sides. Flower was simply sublime - IMO his star shone even brighter when given the chance to play with better footballers in State of Origin... simply my opinion, but I think he'd receive more universal recognition and praise from beyond the red and blue if he'd played in greater sides.

We are well off the track of this thread now, but I just can`t help but have my 2 cents worth. I watched at least 100 of Robbies games live I`d reckon. No player since his retirement comes close. To add to your great summation Graz, here is the key to this argument. In reference to State of Origin, whilst playing in particularly poor Melbourne sides year in year out, RF was probably first picked for Victoria for a period of 3 to 4 years I`d say, and usually dominated in those games against the best in Australia! I can`t think of any other Demon since then that continually dominated in home and away footy, let alone State of Origin. I cherish every memory I have of watching his poetry in motion!

[DemonDan... 77]

Pavlich, Brown, Black, S.Johnson, Riewoldt, Hayes, Cooney just to name a few.....

Did you actually see Flower play? Flower could play and dominate positions from FF to CHB including the midfield. Strong in the air and exquisite on the ground and fast and agile. Not as fast as Davey over 30 metres but as deft of touch and balance. Davey is predominantly a left foot kick with distances of up to 50 metres. Flower could kick either foot and snagged goals up to 60 metres. He was also a terrific snap for goal as well. Flower could dominate games for four quarters and do so in some of the most awful MFC sides. Both Davey and Flower have played a dog awful sides (Flower for longer) but where Flower shone we have seen bits and pieces of Davey's brilliance. He is not in Flower's vicinity but 4 to 5 year top line years would put him up with near the Lyons, Vineys , Alan Johnsons, Neitz etc. Lyon is not in Flowers ball park either. A very good player and captain but his best years were cruelled by back injury. And no where near as strong overhead as Flower was

I think after 09', we can safely say weve seen more than just bits an pieces of his brilliance. A year ago, i would have agreed, but not now - a season later.

"Done it more than once or twice i think i termed it".. S johnson is the only player on your list that i missed that has recently won games virtually off his own boot.

The rest have done it before but when is the last time you saw pav, black or cooney do it?..

freo dont really win, cooney had the slowest start to last season from memory and took a good part of the season to get up to speed.. the rest have had BOGs and dominated games, but won the game off their own boot - not often imo.

(N. Davis, circa 2005?, playing for the swans, kicking all those goals and making play to literally get the swans into a final off his own boot - that qualifies

Brown or Riewoldt having a great day kicking 5- 6 goals - to me doesnt)

Suppose its a matter of opinion..

Yeah, of course saw robbie play! Many times. (live, that is)

-Davey can dominate in possies from forward to back and in the centre too!..

Im thinking of 2 davey goals last year, both from 60+ out, 1 on the run and 1 from a set shot and theres no way you can seriously suggest Robbie was better than davey in front of goal!

Davey (probably Yze and jurrah now too) have kicked the best goals MFC has ever seen, no doubt. Bad examples imo RR, but i know where your coming from.

With Gaz.. maybe thinking more of a Lyon that did live up to his potential, fair enough my boo-boo because he never did, but to say he's not in flowers ballpark is an insult imo, because he was, but thru cicrumstance couldnt stay there, as you suggested. Again a matter of opinion i guess.

ONE thing is for sure tho - if davey has a Shite year, im gonna cop it sweet!!

Davey would be lucky to spit and polish Flower's boots.

Highlighted in bold shows why i cant take your posts seriously. Why insult a current star of the club.

Surely you dont believe this, more likely youre agreeing with the majority, hoping to get a pat on the back from someone, yeah?

Footy in the old days was pretty bad.

Robbie was a rare exception, ahead of his time even- probably a good a part of why he stood out against the rest of the league.

But not so much better, that we reduce Davey to a boot-polisher.

Davey (and todays stars/potential stars) would have their way with 99.9% of players from probably around pre-1980.

The game has evolved, got so much faster, tactical and harder (hard 30 odd years ago - usually meant playing dirty, taking someones head off -big difference now)

Davey has courage and grace - like robbie - he's kicked as good or better goals than him - so many defensive/dumb statements?

No-ones having a go at Robbie or anyone! I put the lyons and daveys, the stynes (how could i forget) up there with the Robbie flowers -just an opinion

Robbie was a champion, but he's not untouchable..

To suggest a Davey couldnt get to his level -is an opinion, we all have one- makes for good reading, discussion etc..

To say he not fit to clean his boots or not in the same stratosphere - is just old-school arrogance.. and something Id expect from an opposition supporter looking to stir up an arguement.

[Roost It 1,434]

Robbie was a champion, but he's not untouchable..

To suggest a Davey couldnt get to his level -is an opinion, we all have one- makes for good reading, discussion etc..

To say he not fit to clean his boots or not in the same stratosphere - is just old-school arrogance.. and something Id expect from an opposition supporter looking to stir up an arguement.

Give it away bro, Robbie Flower would walk into any of today's teams and still be a champion. He's in the top 25 players to have ever played the game. Davey didn't even make it into the top 25 for AA in arguably his best season. This is meant as no insult to Davey who continues to improve and should do so again this year. When we talk Flower we talk about the greats of the game. When we talk Davey we talk about a very good footballer, there's a massive difference.

[DemonDan... 77]

Give it away bro, Robbie Flower would walk into any of today's teams and still be a champion.

When we talk Flower we talk about the greats of the game. When we talk Davey we talk about a very good footballer, there's a massive difference.

Give what away bro?

Like you, did i not say he was a champion?

Did i not say he was ahead of his time and Davey still had a way to go to consolidate last years magnificent efforts, to stay in flowers 'ballpark'?? (tho some think he's not quite in flowers orbit, yet.. its good to have diff opinions)

Your post serves to stengthen my point about Robbie being untouchable -

There will be a player as good as or better than Flower to come out of MFC eventually - get over it.

And since you want to start bringing AA stats and top 25's into the conversation..

How many brownlows did Robbie win??

In the same year / great era of the great Robbie flower,

Brian Wilson wins the bloody thing?? Hmmm..

Maybe we should leave stats out of it, to try to prove our points, yeah?

Me thinks your looking for a bunch of people to get online and pat you on the back for 'sticking up' for robbie..

good luck to ya.. but really theres no comments to defend

BTW - I layed into calabrise boy about a month ago for dropping a turd on one Robert flower!

Go back and read what he posted.. people would hunt him down judging by this reaction.

Oh, and no-one else posted a single word to defend him either you'll notice..

[btdemon 482]

Flower kept me going to the footy through a dark period. He was a genius. Davey has kept me going to the footy in a more recent dark period. Farmer, Lyon, and Jakovich likewise. They are all fantastic. Liam Jurrah is also supremely gifted. How exciting is he?

Confucious said...... "He who compares the beauty of one sunset to another, does not appreciate either".

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Confucious said...... "He who compares the beauty of one sunset to another, does not appreciate either".

If there was a rep system on this board I'd give you +1 for that because you are right on the money. It's just good to have seen these players in the red and blue and we should enjoy every moment they have - or will - give us.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Rojik of the Arctic

[Dees Win 1]

It is a priviledge to be able to watch some of the players who have been fortunate enough to wear the red and blue, and you can name them all. They all bring different skillsets to the team, and have different strengths and weaknesses.

Davey leaves us shaking our heads at his speed, delivery and defensive work. It is increible to think that he can improve considerably over what he showed us last year, and we can't wait to see it this year.

But without doubt, Flower stands out for this club since 1970. I can't comment prior to that time. In a very poor period for the football club, with only a handfull of decent players there was always Flower to bring people to the game. His balance is what separated him from the rest. And for a guy with such poor eyesight, his vision was incredible. His ability to be elite from such an early stage in his career made the game great.

Davey's goal on the run when he baulked Tarrant against Freo in the great comeback match of 2008 was Flower-esque. But Flower would do it multiple times a match, and pin-point the finish - either at goal or to a player down field.

My favourite memory was a match when Barassi was coaching, and held Flower at FF for 3 and a bit quarters against Essendon at the G. You could see Flower was toey, and eager to get involved, but he had very limited opportunity. With about 20 minutes to go and Melbourne down by plenty, Barassi released him to the wing. The game changed completely. The struggling Dees became the attacker. Flower took the ball all over the ground and danced around players at will to drag the Dees back into the contest. Whenever he had the ball the crowd rose as one.

We didn;t win the day, but supporters of both teams had been treated to 20 minutes of football that they talked about for ages. It barely rated a mention in the media.

I believe the Flower never won a Brownlow as the umpires would judge his performance each week against his own standard. That is, Flower could have been the best and most influencial player on the ground, but he wouldn't poll a vote as it wasn't seen as a good match by Flower standard. It can be pretty hard to get votes that way. That is how underdogs like Woewy and Wilson won Brownlows.

Families of Melbourne supporters owe a great deal to Flower for keeping their interest in the Dees during those cold, dark, difficult years.

Cheers

Edited February 11, 2010 by Dees Win

[H_T 3,043]

Highlighted in bold shows why i cant take your posts seriously. Why insult a current star of the club.

DemonDan, Oliver Hill's assessment regarding Davey that he would be lucky to shine Flower's boots (words to the effect) wasn't really an insult to Davey. It was a mere reflection of Davey's standing within footy compared to Flower. Surely you could have seen that ? It's like others saying Davey isn't in Flower's orbit.

Footy in the old days was pretty bad.

Robbie was a rare exception, ahead of his time even- probably a good a part of why he stood out against the rest of the league.

This I agree with. And as others have stated when he played at the highest level for Victoria in State of Origin he shone. Time and time again. Players of the ilk of Matthews, Tuck, Dipper, Daniher (T.D.), Bartlett, Buckenara, etc - I've heard them all repeatedly speak highly of R.Flower re: S.O.O.

Davey (and todays stars/potential stars) would have their way with 99.9% of players from probably around pre-1980.

Davey has courage and grace - like robbie - he's kicked as good or better goals than him - so many defensive/dumb statements?

Davey has kicked some goals. I recall Robbie kicking some brilliant goals.

No-ones having a go at Robbie or anyone! I put the lyons and daveys, the stynes (how could i forget) up there with the Robbie flowers -just an opinion

Fair enough. I don't put Davey in that same bracket you do.

To suggest a Davey couldnt get to his level -is an opinion, we all have one- makes for good reading, discussion etc..

To say he not fit to clean his boots or not in the same stratosphere - is just old-school arrogance.. and something Id expect from an opposition supporter looking to stir up an arguement.

They have an opinion just like you do. I wouldn't call it old-school arrogance. In some cases they are talking from experience and having seen all players played themselves. I don't see them as stirring, I see it as them trying to set the record straight.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Quite right HT.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

the 1980 All-Australian side would get absolutely smashed by the 2009 All-Australian side