Did we win the "Kreuzer Cup"

[pringle 42]

Comparing the likely picks 1 and 2 in this year's draft (Scully and Trengove) to last year (Watts and NikNat) got me thinking about which year would be best to have the luxury of the PP.

I am not sure of the exact rule, but it then got me thinking that we may have lucked out in this situation. Had we not beaten Carlton in that late season farcical "Kreuzer Cup" back in 2007 and consequently obtained a PP in 2008, we would have chosen Watts and Nik Nat. Now, assuming we had the same year in terms of win-loss this year, would we have still qualified for the PP again even though we got one the year prior? Does it have to be another two consecutive years of less than 4 wins each or would another failure have sufficed, or would we have missed out on Trengove and only got Scully this year?

And regardless, if we had taken both Watts and Naita last year, would we have tanked to try to get another pick this year? I think it's unlikely and FWIW I think we would have finished about 12th to 14th in 2009, fully believing we were on the rise having completed the bulk of our rebuild by taking two such highly rated boys - sort of like we feel about the club this year.

So I came to the conclusion that IF (like myself) you believe the combination of Watts, Scully and Trengove is better than Watts, Naita and Scully (or another lesser player if we came 12th - 14th), then we probably had a win out of losing to Carlton in '07 and delaying the PP a year. I always felt quite peeved about winning that day, but now I see that this game could still be viewed as a good win that will help the club build a winning culture.

Of course some may think we lost out on this one (ie. Watts, Naita and draft pick 1-6 in 2009 > Watts, Scully and Trengove). Feel free to disagree. And also, I'm not 100% sure if losing to Carlton would have got us a PP in '07 or not, and whether we would have been allowed to have another PP in '08 etc. But regardless, I think we lucked out in terms of timing.

Thanks therefore go not only to Jordan McMahon for sponsoring this message board, but also to the Carlton FC, for showing DB how to tank properly and allowing Jordan to seal the deal when the time was best for the MFC. I may have hated karma in those days for rewarding Carlton for it's cheating, but the events of the last couple of months (Fev etc.) and now the upcoming draft have helped restore my faith a bit (though they did steal Brock...)

Edited November 11, 2009 by pringle

[Jaded No More 58,833]

I'm not sure whether we won or lost out of that, but you could argue that had we obtained the services of Chris Judd, we would have lost out on Morton, Watts, Blease, Scully and Trengove, as we would have traded pick 4 (Morton) to West Coast and would not have gone on to win two spoons with Judd in our midfield.

So is that a win for us? I think it is.

[45HG 1,539]

We have already won.

On top of the reasons you've listed, that match also saw Trav rack up over 40 touches. I've decided that this helped convince Matthews to spend pick 14 on him - allowing us to take Grimes.

[pringle 42]

I'm not sure whether we won or lost out of that, but you could argue that had we obtained the services of Chris Judd, we would have lost out on Morton, Watts, Blease, Scully and Trengove, as we would have traded pick 4 (Morton) to West Coast and would not have gone on to win two spoons with Judd in our midfield.

So is that a win for us? I think it is.

Even better!!! I like!!!

[Jaded No More 58,833]

Even better!!! I like!!!

That is the true definition of "everything happens for a reason".

Chris Judd can kiss our big fat tanking behind

[45HG 1,539]

Are we to extrapolate that we've been inadvertently kissed on the dick by the blues?

[pringle 42]

That is the true definition of "everything happens for a reason".

Chris Judd can kiss our big fat tanking behind

Are we to extrapolate that we've been inadvertently kissed on the dick by the blues?

What I am reading here is that we have managed to score big time, with Carlton rubbing us up from the front, and Chris Judd from behind...

Actually...

Doesn't sound as good put it that way...

Ughhhh!!!!

[hoopla 418]

Are we to extrapolate that we've been inadvertently kissed on the dick by the blues?

Given that one Blue at least has the option of getting favours from Rebecca Twigley, we're doing pretty well

Edited November 11, 2009 by hoopla

[1858 224]

We have already won.

On top of the reasons you've listed, that match also saw Trav rack up over 40 touches. I've decided that this helped convince Matthews to spend pick 14 on him - allowing us to take Grimes.

Matthews seems to like to distance himself from that decision whenever TJ has been mentioned to him of late. I can't possibly see how he wasn't part of the decision making process though.

Are we to extrapolate that we've been inadvertently kissed on the dick by the blues?

...or in this case kissed on the pressure point.

[Redleg 37,933]

Given that one Blue at least has the option of getting favours from Rebecca Twigley, we're doing pretty well

But we have Pia. We win.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Redleg

[e25 5]

Very interesting post.

Would we have still taken Morton had we won the Kruezer Cup?

I think for balance we've done as well as we could have, considering the scenarios that would've popped up.

We could've ended up with say Kreuzer, Watts, Naitanui, and Scully, but I think that'd make us a little top heavy for talent and still lacking enough A grade midfielders. Rich, although good enough, I think would've been a waste of one of those picks.

I don't think he's far from his ceiling.

It also brings up an interesting point for me also - Trent Cotchin - he may look to be the goods but 2 years on he's still failed to make too much of an impact on Richmond.

Just a cautionary tale for those expecting Trengove and/or Scully to set the world on fire in their first seasons...

[drdrake 3,048]

Wasn't that game that effected us Carlton was always going to lose, the Bulldogs game hurts the most. The best game Jeff White had played all year, if we lose that one we wold off got

2007 Morton, Grimes, Pick 19, Maric

2008 Watts, Pick 2, then one of Strauss or Blease

[titan_uranus 22,730]

Wasn't that game that effected us Carlton was always going to lose, the Bulldogs game hurts the most. The best game Jeff White had played all year, if we lose that one we wold off got

Whoa.

Don't let Hannibal see this.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Would we have still taken Morton had we won the Kruezer Cup?

I think for balance we've done as well as we could have, considering the scenarios that would've popped up.

We could've ended up with say Kreuzer, Watts, Naitanui, and Scully, but I think that'd make us a little top heavy for talent and still lacking enough A grade midfielders. Rich, although good enough, I think would've been a waste of one of those picks.

I don't think he's far from his ceiling.

It also brings up an interesting point for me also - Trent Cotchin - he may look to be the goods but 2 years on he's still failed to make too much of an impact on Richmond.

Just a cautionary tale for those expecting Trengove and/or Scully to set the world on fire in their first seasons...

Yes. My understanding is that wee would have gone for Morton had we won the Kruezer Cup.

If we did take Kruezer we would not have necessarily taken Nik Nat.

Trent Cotchin has been injured for alot of 2009 but in 2008 he was gun. He is still going to be central to the Tigers midfield and will be a very good player. Nothing cautionary there. Scully and Trengove should be better than what we currently have in the midfield and if fit and as good as their profiles I cant see why they would not be in the starting 22 round 1 in 2010.

[H_T 2,941]

Wasn't that game that effected us Carlton was always going to lose, the Bulldogs game hurts the most. The best game Jeff White had played all year, if we lose that one we wold off got

87.5 activation points with an early guilty plea for bad grammar.

Refer to General Discussion for explanation

[e25 5]

Yes. My understanding is that wee would have gone for Morton had we won the Kruezer Cup.

If we did take Kruezer we would not have necessarily taken Nik Nat.

Trent Cotchin has been injured for alot of 2009 but in 2008 he was gun. He is still going to be central to the Tigers midfield and will be a very good player. Nothing cautionary there. Scully and Trengove should be better than what we currently have in the midfield and if fit and as good as their profiles I cant see why they would not be in the starting 22 round 1 in 2010.

Yes and if Morton was gone the next on our list was Grimes.

But I don't always believe what recruiters say, before or after the fact.

Cotchin was and is a gun, but he had limited impact in his first season and, yes, his second was riddled with injury.

The caution is towards expecting our top 2 draft picks to set the world alight in their first season because even gun players can get derailed finding their feet and through injury.

Next year I expect him to be in top 4 contention for Richmond's B&F, but while he has shown he has the qualitites of a gun he still has been unable to influence Richmond's win column significantly.

[Gooner 9]

I don't think we won the Kreuzer cup.

If we'd lost to Carlton we would've had the following picks:

2007: pick 2 (Cotchin), pick 18 (Rance)

2008: pick 2 (Natanui, pick 18 (Shuey)

Instead we would've lost:

2007: pick 4: (Morton)

2008: pick 17 (Blease), pick 19 (Strauss)

So by beating Carlton, we lost a first round pick in 2008 (pick 2) and a second round pick in 2007 (pick 18).

I know the players that we've picked up are good players, but it doesn't make up for an picks additional round higher in two years!

As for whether we would've got picks 1 & 2 this year, it's hard to see where we would've lost an additional game, but for Richmond, and we could've won that one easily if we'd tried. We may just have had to rest a few more players for the game.

[Darren Cuthbertson 0]

Given that one Blue at least has the option of getting favours from Rebecca Twigley, we're doing pretty well

You think? You must rate VS above her don't you? Rebecca Twigley looks like she's had some work done ala Wacko Jacko. Refer to recent Brownlow emails that confirm this.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Darren Cuthbertson

[rpfc 27,617]

Are we to extrapolate that we've been inadvertently kissed on the dick by the blues?

Indeed.

KOTD.

[Daz's Dee's 113]

We have already won.

On top of the reasons you've listed, that match also saw Trav rack up over 40 touches. I've decided that this helped convince Matthews to spend pick 14 on him - allowing us to take Grimes.

GREAT Call.............

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes and if Morton was gone the next on our list was Grimes.

But I don't always believe what recruiters say, before or after the fact.

Then why would you ask the question..."Would we have still taken Morton had we won the Kruezer Cup?" If you are not going to consider what the recruiters say and my source was from a special supporters talk given by the CC not a press blurb

I would like to correct what I said earlier. At the 2007 draft , MFC had rated the early picks as follows...Cotchin, Masten, Morton then Kruezer.

Cotchin was and is a gun, but he had limited impact in his first season and, yes, his second was riddled with injury.

The caution is towards expecting our top 2 draft picks to set the world alight in their first season because even gun players can get derailed finding their feet and through injury.

Next year I expect him to be in top 4 contention for Richmond's B&F, but while he has shown he has the qualitites of a gun he still has been unable to influence Richmond's win column significantly.

How can Cotchin have been and is a "gun" if he had limited impact in first year and riddled with injury in his second year? One hand you say he is a gun ..on the other he has shown qualities of a gun. He is not a gun.. yet but a very good promising footballer when fit.

He was very good in his first year and came 3rd in the Rising Star award with an interrupted pre season and playing his first game in round 8 of that year. Prior to that game Richmond had won 2.5 games out of 7. From that time on they won 9 out of 15. He has had enough positive influence on them for a first year player. And your issuing caution about expecting too much in ther first year?

Only the melodramatic expect Scully and Trengove to set the world on fire in their first year. If they are each as good Cotchin in their first year, I will be rapt. As I said they are better than what we have currently and should feature in MFC's midfield in their first year.

[Keyser Söze 0]

You do enjoy a good argument, don't you rhino..?