Emma Quayle's article on tanking

[Guest]

I read this article in the Age on Sunday and I think that she makes three very good points.

1. There is still seven games to go and we could possibly win four of them. It is way too early to talk about tanking. Also, the draft this year is nowhere near what it was last year. Two high picks will not neccesarily be star players. i.e McLean and Sylvia, both good but not stars.

2. High draft picks do not make good teams. Adelaide have not had a top 5 pick and are consistently at the top end of the ladder. Essendon have just as good a young list as Carlton without anywhere near the draft picks that Carlton have had. Also some of their high draft picks (Gumbleton, Myers) are not playing at the moment.

3. Even if we do win games it means that Jurrah, Grimes, Morton, etc. are playing well, which is not at all a bad thing. We still have Watts, Blease, Strauss, Cheney, Buckley, Bennell, Wonaeamirri and Garland to come into the promising young team that won two games in a row.

Edited July 19, 2009 by asfadasfasdf

[beelzebub 22,351]

emphasis on her words "It is important to also note that tanking is a completely different thing to responsible list management: getting injures players operated on once the finals are beyond reach, giving young players game time and so on"

This is essentially the theme in the thread i posed.. differently converyed possibly..lol

I must confess however that having said that Emma Quales further comentary is possibly moot.

I distinctly think she has missed the simplicity of reason in her own opening words and then for what ever reason gone on to tow the company line.

I rate Quayle; and much of what she does say has much validity but she, i think, dismisses too easily the notion that calibre of ability is brought in at that opportunity. I can agree with Emma that simply picking high does not guarantee a Champion team as she would have us beleive but it does bring in the chance to have champions and thats something we sorely lack. Its around a champion or two that others lift and the beast that is a 'champion team' forms. To Emma and those similalry minded I suggest we ( MFC ) still desperately nned these picks in order to get more and better talent from which to carve our future.

I think she is erroneous in ther thinking that we want high picks for trade currency. I think we need high picks simply for better players. Its as simple as that. There are ways to have measurable improvements without throwing out the baby with the bathwater !!!

[Hannabal 4]

I read this article in the Age on Sunday and I think that she makes three very good points.

1. There is still seven games to go and we could possibly win four of them. It is way too early to talk about tanking. Also, the draft this year is nowhere near what it was last year. Two high picks will not neccesarily be star players. i.e McLean and Sylvia, both good but not stars.

2. High draft picks do not make good teams. Adelaide have not had a top 5 pick and are consistently at the top end of the ladder. Essendon have just as good a young list as Carlton without anywhere near the draft picks that Carlton have had. Also some of their high draft picks (Gumbleton, Myers) are not playing at the moment.

3. Even if we do win games it means that Jurrah, Grimes, Morton, etc. are playing well, which is not at all a bad thing. We still have Watts, Blease, Strauss, Cheney, Buckley, Bennell, Wonaeamirri and Garland to come into the promising young team that won two games in a row.

1. There are 6 games to go, not 7; and at best I see us winning 2, which would mean missing a top 3 pick by one meaningless win. But we'll see. And no, she's right, there aren't any guarantees. But obviously the percentages favour the very early picks as being potential stars. Do I need to name them all for you. I can and will on request. And Scully most certainly will be a star. FFS, he'd be our best mid now.

2. Adelaide haven't won a flag in a decade. Essendon may or may not get close to a flag. It's the chance at a flag that some of us crave, not just being "a good team". You say Adelaide "are consistently at the top end of the ladder". So what ? Show me their flag. Have a look at the top 6 thread. It will give you an idea where the best players come from. It's predominantly early picks and first rounders.

3. So we won two in a row. Big deal. We beat Port and West Coast at the G. We virtually always beat those teams at the G. Even when we're [censored]. Some supporters are very easily pleased. We're currently crud and the one thing designed to help us, the draft, is being massively compromised for years. We do have some young talent coming through, but we need to stock pile as many as we can while we can. The AFL hands out priority picks for a reason. They give them to teams that need them. And we bloody well need them.

[beelzebub 22,351]

.........And no, she's right, there aren't any guarantees. But obviously the percentages favour the very early picks as being potential stars. Do I need to name them all for you. I can and will on request. And Scully most certainly will be a star. FFS, he'd be our best mid now.

........... It will give you an idea where the best players come from. It's predominantly early picks and first rounders.

..........., the draft, is being massively compromised for years. We do have some young talent coming through, but we need to stock pile as many as we can while we can. The AFL hands out priority picks for a reason. They give them to teams that need them. And we bloody well need them.

Sage

She's is practically on the ball though, we ARE ( hopefully ) list managing, in that we are hope to manage to get these guys ( Scully etc ) on our list !!!

Emma's quite correct as H alays in that there is talent coming through but what sort of fools would we be to be complacent and stop at that. You need a constant throughput of ability...keep it coming.

[Pepe Dee Pew 0]

Totally agree Hannabal. If you can't get a decent tilt at the big one you are wasting your time. Who wants another era of finals appearances with the odd massive belting in a GF. I would rather have a crap 6 more weeks and get a shot at a couple of players who may take us that step further.

Its not bloody rocket science. Its bloody good business. Flag means money = survival = me very happy.

[Whispering_Jack 28,094]

Emma Quayle makes a lot of sense when she says that "if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better."

It also makes good sense to be able to draft two of the top three young footballers in the land. The problem is none of us have any control over these things and I don't believe that any one club can do that although Fremantle (minus Pavlich, Sandilands and now Tarrant) and West Coast (Cox and Kerr) seem to be making a good fist of it.

I personally think we will easily beat Freo when we play them later in the season and we're at least even money in our next two games against Sydney and Richmond (Richo will be playing for Coburg that week).

So the likelihood is that we're going to finish on 5 or 6 wins and possibly as high as 13th. We'll probably be kicking ourselves when Docker Tom Scully wins his second Brownlow in 2014 but what can we do about it?

Let's hope the AFL comes up with a better system than the current one because the spectre of tanking and list management takes away from the enjoyment of our game.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I read this article in the Age on Sunday and I think that she makes three very good points.

1. There is still seven games to go and we could possibly win four of them. It is way too early to talk about tanking. Also, the draft this year is nowhere near what it was last year. Two high picks will not neccesarily be star players. i.e McLean and Sylvia, both good but not stars.

2. High draft picks do not make good teams. Adelaide have not had a top 5 pick and are consistently at the top end of the ladder. Essendon have just as good a young list as Carlton without anywhere near the draft picks that Carlton have had. Also some of their high draft picks (Gumbleton, Myers) are not playing at the moment.

3. Even if we do win games it means that Jurrah, Grimes, Morton, etc. are playing well, which is not at all a bad thing. We still have Watts, Blease, Strauss, Cheney, Buckley, Bennell, Wonaeamirri and Garland to come into the promising young team that won two games in a row.

Adelaide have had consistently good management keeping the club & list healthy, we're not in that position. We have not had the money &/or knowledge so unfortunately mismanaged the club ending with running the list almost totally bereft.

We have had to do a major rebuild, & that needs fast-tracking.

[rpfc 27,646]

I really enjoy her writing but on this occasion she has written an article that would best suited for about 6 weeks ago.

We are where we are, and that is losing against Sydney, NM, Carlton, and St.Kilda to finish the year.

So it becomes 4 or 5 wins to finish the year, I would prefer 4 and a loss to Fremantle (not a likely scenario) or Richmond (a must at this stage).

This will come to a head, not against St Kilda like Emma wrote in her article, but against Richmond on the 2nd of August.

If we win that I will stop talking about the priority pick, because it would have been gone.

PS. And BB59 - I'm getting sick and tired of 'anti-tankers' looking down their nose at me for 'wanting to lose' and then implying that 'list management' and 'protection of players for 2010' is not tanking.

That is how you 'tank.' I guess some of us just don't want to live in a fool's paradise where we can say we are not tanking and only 'list managing.'

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[demon3165 2,088]

Read this from the Age and the full article from the link below interesting reading all I say go DB.

"Last year, I attended a high level football meeting with AFL officials in a Darwin pool, summoned late one night by that great football eccentric Kevin Sheedy. For those who didn't wish to get in the pool, Sheedy brought togs. Once in the water, we gathered around him like players gathered round coaches in the old days before quarter and half-time breaks became exercises in transmitting the mathematical markers of the game. "Tanking's [censored]," he declared. "I tanked in 1993 and won a premiership."

In 1993, Sheedy dropped a series of Essendon players entitled to believe they had a rightful place in the team and gave their spots to untried youngsters. That is, he didn't play to win in the short term. He looked to the future and saw how he might build. That would now be described as tanking, but who can say Sheedy was wrong? I don't see how any AFL club can be told it is not entitled to adopt that policy at whatever time it chooses, particularly if it is evident they are building for the future.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/playing-d...90717-do60.html

Edited July 19, 2009 by demon3165

[Real Demon 232]

3. Even if we do win games it means that Jurrah, Grimes, Morton, etc. are playing well, which is not at all a bad thing. We still have Watts, Blease, Strauss, Cheney, Buckley, Bennell, Wonaeamirri and Garland to come into the promising young team that won two games in a row.

Many people on here suffer from box fever.............every club can roll out a list of names and point to the future, and say it looks good!

I've got an Essendon mate who craps on about how good their kids are all the time, and based on how they are travelling at present, maybe he is right!

Watts.....plenty of promise

Blease - We know nothing yet, apart from the fact that every other club had a pick before him in that draft, and would have equally high expectations of their picks.....why is Blease so special?

Strauss - see Blease

Cheney - shown some promise, but no game breaker!

Buckley - see Cheney

Bennell - promising, but I can't see him coming on to be the next Judd, Ablett, Hodge etc etc

Wona - Had a couple of good games last year, and some and a well publicised highlight reel, but I wouldn't hang my hat on him being a star yet.

Garland - looks promising, and along with his fellow defenders, we look to have makings of a very good defence.

Some of these players will be hits, and others misses.

I've seen nothing yet to tell me we have an Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Voss, Akermanis, Black, Power, Lappin, Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes on our hands yet..............players with the kind of talent needed to win flags. Forget a flag unless we can deliver some players the ilk of this list. From what I can see we don't have them at the club yet. We need to get them, and two top 5 picks greatly increases our chances!

[beelzebub 22,351]

Read this from the Age and the full article from the link below interesting reading all I say go DB.

"Last year, I attended a high level football meeting with AFL officials in a Darwin pool, summoned late one night by that great football eccentric Kevin Sheedy. For those who didn't wish to get in the pool, Sheedy brought togs. Once in the water, we gathered around him like players gathered round coaches in the old days before quarter and half-time breaks became exercises in transmitting the mathematical markers of the game. "Tanking's [censored]," he declared. "I tanked in 1993 and won a premiership."

In 1993, Sheedy dropped a series of Essendon players entitled to believe they had a rightful place in the team and gave their spots to untried youngsters. That is, he didn't play to win in the short term. He looked to the future and saw how he might build. That would now be described as tanking, but who can say Sheedy was wrong? I don't see how any AFL club can be told it is not entitled to adopt that policy at whatever time it chooses, particularly if it is evident they are building for the future.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/playing-d...90717-do60.html

3165..the major problem for me is that many only see each game in closeted isolation. You go out each season to make the best of it you can..the "unit" is season !! The best we can make of this season is to supplant teh ranks withthe best available and go out next "SEASON" and make the best fist of that, and then the following Season etc etc . Some just dont get it.. Sheedy did.. he's got a few stripes to his merit more than any of us !!

[stretch marks 2]

sadly when the season is shot at 1 win 12 losses at round 13, and has been another miserable season, the only real enjoyment a supporter can look forward to is 1st couple of picks in the draft. A few wins against middle of the table or lower teams really doesnt make up for another depressing season.

[Doggo 32]

I've seen nothing yet to tell me we have an Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Voss, Akermanis, Black, Power, Lappin, Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes on our hands yet..............players with the kind of talent needed to win flags. Forget a flag unless we can deliver some players the ilk of this list. From what I can see we don't have them at the club yet. We need to get them, and two top 5 picks greatly increases our chances!

Jack Grimes?

[Jarka 767]

Emma Quayle makes a lot of sense when she says that "if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better."

It also makes good sense to be able to draft two of the top three young footballers in the land. The problem is none of us have any control over these things and I don't believe that any one club can do that although Fremantle (minus Pavlich, Sandilands and now Tarrant) and West Coast (Cox and Kerr) seem to be making a good fist of it.

Disagree with these two points.

if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better, Not always true. We recently beat the Eagles because they've already put the cue in the rack and Port were atrocious. Any decent team would have beaten us in either game. I'll also use 2007 as an example, we beat Carlton in the last game of the season to lose a pp and gift Carlton with Judd. If what Quayle was saying is true then we should have been improving, but the exact opposite occured. In the following two years we got worse.

The problem is none of us have any control over these things, Do you mean the club or the supporters? I'm presuming you mean the club otherwise it wouldn't make sense. Of course we have complete control over our destiny, the majority of clubs in the AFL are smart, if they're in a position to get an advantage they don't let it easily slip. Melbourne on the other hand has let it slipped twice before in the past.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Emma Quayle makes a lot of sense when she says that "if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better."

So what, getting better than bottom side isn't that big a deal. We are considerably better than last year, but still a bottom 4 side. What will it take to get top 4, let alone premier?

Scully AND Trengrove from the draft would give us the best chance of that.

I don't want us to tank, but nor do I want us to win games that we shouldn't, on form, win. Which can happen for all sorts of reasons. Opposition tanks on us (a la Carltank a few years ago), or we play our current best team in the meaningless last few games rather than playing players who will get most out of the run FOR NEXT YEAR, or we don't manage injured players properly (get them treated & rested early for a good pre-season), or we draw on some emotional reserves to get us up for a big-hearted win against another jaded team... all of which is silly and means we increase our chances of being a good middle order team for the next decade or so.

Nope, I don't entirely agree with Quayle (good football writer that she is). I don't want us to tank, but I defintely don't want us winning games that on form we shouldn't.

Which means only one more win this year!

[Real Demon 232]

Jack Grimes?

Okay maybe one.......but that won't be enough!

The top teams have 3-4 genuine stars.

[Einstein 1]

I spent a couple of hours today reading through all the 'tanking' threads that popped up here while I was away this week.

I think I am far too conflicted on the issue to compose a post that wont contradict itself from one sentence to the next. I don't think I will waste my energy attempting to argue for one side or the other. I would make a mockery of it.

But I will say a couple of things. I thought for the most part it was the same old arguments I've read all this season with the weekly dose of priority pick/tanking threads. I'm sure there will be more and more of them over the coming weeks. I think the arguments go round in circles and nobody gives any ground. In the end though, it doesn't matter what we think or hope for. It's in the clubs hands.

I've had a foot in both camps for pretty much the whole season. I can't help it. I can't go to games hoping to lose, willing against my club, especially such a young group giving their all. I guess I am logically crippled by the immediate passion for the contest.

At the same time, the thought of adding both Scully and another quality youngster leaves me a little breathless. I think the club has a great opportunity before it. Whether we take advantage of it remains to be seen.

All I know is the system stinks. No supporter group should be put through this anxiety and compromise.

I think there is one thing that is true. And that is, if we haven't drafted well over the recent years, adding Scully won't make a lick of difference. If we have botched 2007 and 2008 and don't draft well in the upcoming draft, getting Scully won't win us a flag. Drafting and list development isn't merely a matter of cherry picking the top youngsters, it's about drafting well deep into drafts. This is what we have to have done and do. From what I have seen of our recent draft picks so far, I am optimistic about our future and believe in the coming years we will look back at these recent drafts with praise, and I have no doubt adding Scully and another young talent will only make the chances of the club winning the elusive 13th flag a firmer reality.

But in the end, we need a premiership quality list, not merely a few premiership quality players.

[Jerry Lundergard 392]

I spent a couple of hours today reading through all the 'tanking' threads that popped up here while I was away this week.

I think I am far too conflicted on the issue to compose a post that wont contradict itself from one sentence to the next. I don't think I will waste my energy attempting to argue for one side or the other. I would make a mockery of it.

But I will say a couple of things. I thought for the most part it was the same old arguments I've read all this season with the weekly dose of priority pick/tanking threads. I'm sure there will be more and more of them over the coming weeks. I think the arguments go round in circles and nobody gives any ground. In the end though, it doesn't matter what we think or hope for. It's in the clubs hands.

I've had a foot in both camps for pretty much the whole season. I can't help it. I can't go to games hoping to lose, willing against my club, especially such a young group giving their all. I guess I am logically crippled by the immediate passion for the contest.

At the same time, the thought of adding both Scully and another quality youngster leaves me a little breathless. I think the club has a great opportunity before it. Whether we take advantage of it remains to be seen.

All I know is the system stinks. No supporter group should be put through this anxiety and compromise.

I think there is one thing that is true. And that is, if we haven't drafted well over the recent years, adding Scully won't make a lick of difference. If we have botched 2007 and 2008 and don't draft well in the upcoming draft, getting Scully won't win us a flag. Drafting and list development isn't merely a matter of cherry picking the top youngsters, it's about drafting well deep into drafts. This is what we have to have done and do. From what I have seen of our recent draft picks so far, I am optimistic about our future and believe in the coming years we will look back at these recent drafts with praise, and I have no doubt adding Scully and another young talent will only make the chances of the club winning the elusive 13th flag a firmer reality.

But in the end, we need a premiership quality list, not merely a few premiership quality players.

This pretty much sums up my whole feelings on the issue as well. I am going to hate the football over the next couple of weeks.

Just on a side note, does anyone else feel in a roundabout way that we actually got a priority pick in last years draft?

What combo would you take if you had the option now in hindsight. Watts/ Natunui or Watts/Jurrah?

We essentially lucked out with Jurrah being granted an exception to go through the preseason draft, and although he may not have been rated as top 10 prospect, we are now fortunate enough to have him on our list.

[Rogue 585]

1. There is still seven games to go and we could possibly win four of them. It is way too early to talk about tanking. Also, the draft this year is nowhere near what it was last year. Two high picks will not neccesarily be star players. i.e McLean and Sylvia, both good but not stars.

1. I'd rather have two cracks at finding the star from the 2009 draft.

2. I'd rather pick up both of McLean and Sylvia than just one.

[Binmans PA 26,511]

emphasis on her words "It is important to also note that tanking is a completely different thing to responsible list I can agree with Emma that simply picking high does not guarantee a Champion team as she would have us beleive but it does bring in the chance to have champions and thats something we sorely lack. Its around a champion or two that others lift and the beast that is a 'champion team' forms.

Very good points, because teams like Adelaide had those champions still playing when the rebuild began (MacLeod, Goodwin, Edwards etc), as did Essendon (Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher). We've had none of those, as we've lacked champions (besides perhaps Garry Lyon), certainly in my lifetime. I think people under estimate how important it is to have champion older players still on the list, with young players coming through. Lloyd would provide a blueprint for work rate and professionalism for any young Bomber forward coming through, just as Edwards would live up to similar standards for young Adelaide midfielders. What do we have? If it's not almost total youth (our backline), then it's a guy like Robbo, who spends more time on his hands and knees or taking dives, than he does standing on his feet and encouraging team mates. With this lack of champion leadership, we have no foundation and therefore must rely on having early draft picks. Even if they take a while to develop, hopefully the recruiters pick well and the young kids coming through bring their own professionalism to the table.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

]

2. High draft picks do not make good teams. Adelaide have not had a top 5 pick and are consistently at the top end of the ladder. Essendon have just as good a young list as Carlton without anywhere near the draft picks that Carlton have had. Also some of their high draft picks (Gumbleton, Myers) are not playing at the moment.

She makes sense, but this one is a bit on the slanted side, as far as logic goes. Saints are chock full of high draft picks. As are the premiers last season. Likewise Geelong if you consider they have heaps of father-sons.

Also, if it's NOT high draft picks that get you a flag, then what is it? Coaching staff? Culture? Money? Facilities? The amount of Recruiting staff and scouts? The cupboard is bare in a lot of these areas, so what else do we have to go for? Getting high picks doesn't HURT us. If anything, it just gives the recruiters a chance to shine.

emphasis on her words "It is important to also note that tanking is a completely different thing to responsible list management: getting injures players operated on once the finals are beyond reach, giving young players game time and so on"

I wish you could just take that statement and sticky it to a new thread, and have all "tanking" talk reflect that statement. I don't think ANY club has tanked. The blues certainly came the closest, but even they did things that fell within "list management."

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Also, if it's NOT high draft picks that get you a flag, then what is it? Coaching staff? Culture? Money? Facilities? The amount of Recruiting staff and scouts? The cupboard is bare in a lot of these areas, so what else do we have to go for? Getting high picks doesn't HURT us. If anything, it just gives the recruiters a chance to shine.

Leigh Matthews says you need every area in place to win a flag but he said if you dont have the quality of players on your list then the other areas will not cover the most important ingredient to success.

I wish you could just take that statement and sticky it to a new thread, and have all "tanking" talk reflect that statement. I don't think ANY club has tanked. The blues certainly came the closest, but even they did things that fell within "list management."

They already had a private deal with Judd who is partlially paid by Visy. They had worked out the sums and know they wanted Kruzer with PP but had to give a high 1st round pick plus Kennedy to get him. They tanked. When Ratten took over as coach they were in front in a number of games at half time and mysteriously there best players were rested for most of the 2nd half. And somehow they did not seem to tag TJ at any time during the whole of the R22 match.

[Deeoldfart 7,820]

I spent a couple of hours today reading through all the 'tanking' threads that popped up here while I was away this week.

I think I am far too conflicted on the issue to compose a post that wont contradict itself from one sentence to the next. I don't think I will waste my energy attempting to argue for one side or the other. I would make a mockery of it.

But I will say a couple of things. I thought for the most part it was the same old arguments I've read all this season with the weekly dose of priority pick/tanking threads. I'm sure there will be more and more of them over the coming weeks. I think the arguments go round in circles and nobody gives any ground. In the end though, it doesn't matter what we think or hope for. It's in the clubs hands.

I've had a foot in both camps for pretty much the whole season. I can't help it. I can't go to games hoping to lose, willing against my club, especially such a young group giving their all. I guess I am logically crippled by the immediate passion for the contest.

At the same time, the thought of adding both Scully and another quality youngster leaves me a little breathless. I think the club has a great opportunity before it. Whether we take advantage of it remains to be seen.

All I know is the system stinks. No supporter group should be put through this anxiety and compromise.

I think there is one thing that is true. And that is, if we haven't drafted well over the recent years, adding Scully won't make a lick of difference. If we have botched 2007 and 2008 and don't draft well in the upcoming draft, getting Scully won't win us a flag. Drafting and list development isn't merely a matter of cherry picking the top youngsters, it's about drafting well deep into drafts. This is what we have to have done and do. From what I have seen of our recent draft picks so far, I am optimistic about our future and believe in the coming years we will look back at these recent drafts with praise, and I have no doubt adding Scully and another young talent will only make the chances of the club winning the elusive 13th flag a firmer reality.

But in the end, we need a premiership quality list, not merely a few premiership quality players.

Top post Einstein. I'm glad you didn't spend time attempting to argue one side or the other, because I reckon you've summed up perfectly where many of us sit on this issue.

[Akum 2,660]

Top post Einstein. I'm glad you didn't spend time attempting to argue one side or the other, because I reckon you've summed up perfectly where many of us sit on this issue.

Hear hear

[Trisul 649]

Hear hear

Music to the 'ear's.