A common ailment..good @VFL.. wanting @AFL

[beelzebub 22,243]

A bit of an old chestnut but hopefully we can all discuss this rationally

I wait with passing trepidation in raising this as many will see it as some sort of Bashing !!. But we are not that far from seasons end. We wont be in the top 8.. with any luck we actually wil lfinish last and have picks 1 and 2.

Picking/drafting/trading for players requires that there is space available to do so.

Somewhere , somehow 6-8 spaces will be made to accommodate what will historically be looked back upon as teh icing on MFC's cake of reinvention. The year we shored up defences and built armaments of quality with which to go forth and eventually lift the cup, the Holy Grail of Footy, a Premiership.

So..who goes ? There are those who longevity will be put under the microscope for the last time. They may be coerced or suaded to see teh 'bigger' picture and vacate. Some will and obviously some won't.

There is a commonality in and amongst many other threads as we ponder the futures of some players. Curiously the same brush seems to be painting this player and that with a hue of, good @VFL.. wanting @AFL They just dont seem to be able to deliver week in week out at the highest calling. This may well not be all of their own doing. It might be down to what the coach asks of them, it may not enirely suit their demeanor or skillsets. Yes, there maybe a missmatch of directions. Some may be better suited to directorships by other coaches at other clubs and may yet reach the 'standard' in a consistent manner warranted by the game at its highest. Others wont and just plain cant.

Some may attribute this to poor handling or injury or the sun was in the fourth house too long. Whatever the reason some just dont seem to cut the mustard.

I offer up the following for such disection, and in particular order:

Newton, Bell, Johnson, Dunn, Buckley , Hughes , Zomer , Wheatley and Valenti... just my view of course.

There are some who ought to retire or consider it at seasons end obviating the need to delist them in an ignominious light. Lets say.. 2 go in this manner without prejudice.

Then 4 -6 must go.. those that dont provide dividends at AFL simply must be moved on, thats all there is to it whether you like to acknowledge it or not. I would suggest at least 4 of the above list will need to be delisted for exactly that reason, but which.

If any of you accept this premise then who ?? and possibly why.. trade potential ( i.e recouping value and effort by club ) or simply time's up etc. Sorry..next !! etc

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,623]

In my opinion, Simon Buckley has shown he has the potential to be a top class AFL player. He's definitely looked comfortable at the level.. Just makes a few clangers due to inexperience.

Edited July 7, 2009 by JUMPING JACK CLENNETT

[DemonDave 1,078]

Good post BB, for too long our list has been clogged with these type of players too good@VFL/not good enough@AFL.

Some people blamed the plight of these types on our arrangement with Sandy, but its quite clear with the change of VFL affiliation this year that nothing has changed for most of these players in terms of their developement and long term prospects...

Cant argue with any you've listed. Contractual arrangements with players such as Newton who signed a 2yr deal at the end of last year will pose quandries for our list management team.

Why are there so many people quick to the defence of Buckley around here? He's been on our list long enough now, and hasnt cemented a regular senior place, for a variety of reasons, and is therefore a list clogger. And no, injuries and 'not enough good players around him' dont cut it with me.

[rumpole 480]

Shane Valenti is one of those players who never put in a bad game at VFL level but struggles in the AFL. This is probably due to the fact that he doesn't get much game time when he plays for the Dees where he is competing against players with bigger reputations.

[hells bells 2,022]

Newton, Bell, Johnson, Dunn, Buckley , Hughes , Zomer , Wheatley and Valenti... just my view of course.

Wouldn't be particularly fussed if none of them were on the list next year... I also think Wheatley doesn't belong in this group. He may not be on the list next year, but it'll be for different reasons.

If I had to pick 3 to stay on the list it would be Johnson, Dunn and probably Buckley. I'm still not convinced as to whether Dunn's an ordinary player or a reasonable player played out of position. Johnson, provides some level of back-up if everything else goes horribly pear shaped. Buckley's been stiff with injuries this year, but i've got the feeling other players (Grimes, Cheney and Bennell) may have surpassed him.

I'd also like to see Vanenti get 4-6 games towards the end of the year to have another crack before stamping his papers.

Hells

[beelzebub 22,243]

I also think Wheatley doesn't belong in this group. He may not be on the list next year, but it'll be for different reasons.

now Im curious I sort of felt strange putting him on this list also ...but did becasue at the end of the day the same sort of result occurs. But interested in your take.

[mikeod 21]

I may be foolish, but I still harbour hopes for Newton.

Has a far better attitude now, and I really do think he could make it at AFL level if given another chance.

[beelzebub 22,243]

Well that the thing isnt it.. Newton has all the atributes, just not the history. He OUGHT to be able but we all hold out collective breath. Not the way to run a railroad as they say. He can do it.. but whilst BOB can.. we're not sure about Juice..its up to him.

[hells bells 2,022]

now Im curious I sort of felt strange putting him on this list also ...but did becasue at the end of the day the same sort of result occurs. But interested in your take.

I felt all others on your list were still trying to crack into the side and haven't really proven that they'll be good or even solid AFL players. You'd have to say that Paul Wheatley for most of his career has been a good AFL footballer. Anyone that plays over 130 games is doing something right.

It's just that he's on the otherside of the hill, being overtaken by younger better players. I think he's 28 so he could stay on the list for another couple of years but I doubt he will.

But he'll have to go so they can give No. 31 to Scully, simple as that!!!

Edited July 7, 2009 by hells bells

[beelzebub 22,243]

Im not convinced that Wheatley is required.. for a number of reasons and yet I sort of like his line breaking ability and he is one of the very few who can hit from a kick out, and we're SO good at that.

Part of Wheater's problem fo rmine is what is the actual role he's supposed to be filling ? or ..another way what does he bring to the party no one else does ? Its hard to answer.. thats the dillema.

Edited July 7, 2009 by belzebub59

[Guest]

Why are there so many people quick to the defence of Buckley around here? He's been on our list long enough now, and hasnt cemented a regular senior place, for a variety of reasons, and is therefore a list clogger. And no, injuries and 'not enough good players around him' dont cut it with me.

He played 14 games last year and averaged 21 disposals. Has been injured all of this year therefore hasn't been able to crack a senior game. I would keep him on the list for this reason but next year will be critical.

[Johnny Karate 559]

I offer up the following for such disection, and in particular order:

Newton, Bell, Johnson, Dunn, Buckley , Hughes , Zomer , Wheatley and Valenti... just my view of course.

Newton - I'd keep purely as depth next year would be make or break IMO.

Bell - a list clogger, one from the Daniher era who never really cemented a position

Dunn - see Bell (these guys could be good AFL players in the right team IMO but realistically we would get FA at the trade table for them)

Johnson - kind of like Newton he should keep his spot for next year due to lack of players of his size on the list. Newton is unfulfilled potential whereas Johnson is a battler, decent depth option.

Buckley - I've seen enough to suggest he can make it as an AFL player - definitely keep

Hughes & Zomer - have never played AFL (Zomer is in VFL 2's so I would say he's gone), the FD must see something in Hughes to persist with him for so long. Both are rookie listed so overall have no bearing on the senior list and we can't trade them.

Wheatley - average footballer who seems to get a hell of a lot of plaudits given the amount of [censored] players like Bruce cop on this forum. I'd keep Dunn before him, Godfrey played with more intensity.

Valenti - again rookie listed, decent footballer IMO but Jones, McLean & Moloney are better - could play good footy elsewhere.

In short we'd get nothing for these players at the trade table - I'd persist with Newton and Johnson but wouldn't be crying myself to sleep if all went at seasons' end. I'll worry about icing on the cake after we've developed some genuine stars.

[beelzebub 22,243]

Im not sure we would get NOTHING at trade..but what for whom..thats the conundrum. Depends who's shopping for what.

[Hobbits's 17]

Im not convinced that Wheatley is required.. for a number of reasons and yet I sort of like his line breaking ability and he is one of the very few who can hit from a kick out, and we're SO good at that. Part of Wheater's problem fo rmine is what is the actual role he's supposed to be filling ? or ..another way what does he bring to the party no one else does

Line breaking ability? Wheatley? Edited July 7, 2009 by Grimes to Watts

[rpfc 27,564]

Talking about Buckley

I can't read posts apparently.

Deleted.

Apologies.

Buckley's good.

Keep.

Moving on.

[beelzebub 22,243]

Line breaking ability? Wheatley?

yep...kicks straight over them !!

[Deeoldfart 7,788]

I reckon your list is pretty close 'bub, but like a few others I wouldn't mind Buckley being given a bit more opportunity .... perhaps later this season, although that would be tough on him given that he's missed so much footy.

I also reckon that Newton should see out his contract ... obviously the FD saw something in him 12 months ago, and while he hasn't set the world (or even the VFL) on fire, he has developed aspects of his game that we havn't seen before. Still a long way to go for Juice though!

One player who isn't on your list, but whose name has been bandied around a bit in this context is Tom McNamara. He's a good size, young, and from all accounts shows lots of potential. He's had a wretched run with injury, but I certainly hope they persevere with him.

[45HG 1,539]

Is it a development issue?

Many of our players seem to struggle to progress after their first season or two.

[Doggo 32]

Well that the thing isnt it.. Newton has all the atributes, just not the history.

Sorry BB59 to hijack this thread into another Newton discussion, but, I've been doing a lot of thinking about Newton recently, and had a great discussion with a mate the other day about him, and what it takes to make it as a key forward in modern footy. I don't think Newton does have all the attributes. He has some 'nice' parts to his game, but is lacking the major fundamentals to being a good AFL key forward. He's the icing and the cherry on top, minus the cake.

He's tall, he can jump (boy, can he), and can take a big pack mark as long as he gets a clear run at the footy. He's got good hands. He's shown his goal sense is generally good. He's at his best when he's 10-15m behind a pack, running at full pace toward it, with some space on his man, i.e. no-one blocking his run. But what else has he got?

Well, he's improved his defensive side, which he copped a lot of criticism for in the past. And his attitude and team-play has also improved out of sight this year. So why isn't he cracking a game, considering all the improvements he's made, plus the fact that he consistently kicks goals for Casey, and that we're crying out for another key position forward to take the reigns from Robbo? Brad Miller has gone backwards in that regard, so why no love from the FD for Juice?

IMO, the areas most lacking in his overall package, and basically that which is stopping him from having the same impact at AFL level that he has at VFL level, are: lack of speed and endurance (or perhaps work-ethic?) on the lead, and a lack of upper body strength in one-on-one contested situations.

Now i'm no expert, but if i know one thing about modern AFL footy, it's this: as a forward, you need to be able to do more than just take a pack mark with an unimpeded run and jump, and get the occassional ground level goal. At VFL level, where the game is slower and the bodies not as strong, it might work a treat. But at AFL level that style of play is largely hit-and-miss.

Good forwards in the AFL need to be able to get on their bikes and make several, hard and intelligent repeat leads. Think Riewoldt, Richo, Franklin. I've never seen Newton, in my time watching for Melbourne, Casey and Sandy, display any sort of real speed on the lead, or the work-ethic and endurance to make several, hard, repeat leads. Often these leads aren't just about getting the ball, but about moving defenders and opening space for your fellow forwards. More often than not, Newton prefers to be the old-style 'stay-at-home' forward, calling for the ball to be kicked long, high and on his head, despite being outnumbered by zoning defenders. Might have worked in the 80's and 90's, but that style of play isn't going to cut it these days.

The most effective way to beat numbers and find space inside the crowded forward 50's of the modern game is to be constantly on the move. Robbo, despite all his defensive flaws (and like Newton, his love for the ball to be kicked on his head), is actually a great exponent of this part of forward line movement. He's constantly moving in and out of dangerous spaces, presenting up and doubling back, creating doubt in his defenders mind, and space for others, drawing defenders to and from the footy. Newton hasn't shown any great ability or forward smarts to do that yet.

But hard, repeat leading is just one (important) aspect of modern forwardline play.

To be fair, not every KPF needs to have the speed and endurance of a Nick Riewoldt, Richo or Buddy on the lead to be effective. There are other ways to succeed as a key forward at the highest level. If, like Newton, you aren't the greatest 'lead-up' forward, then you need to excel in another important area; one-on-one/body-on-body, contested marking. In other words, you need to be strong! Guys like Daniel Bradshaw, J Roughead or Kurt Tippett, not the quickest or best lead-up forwards, but exceptionally strong in the upper body, are perfect examples of this. They thrive on the physical side of marking contests and the "tests of strength". Newton struggles with this side of AFL footy more than any other area IMO. After 4 seasons on an AFL list, his body still looks immature and he's nowhere near strong enough to play as the body-on-body type. Yet he calls for the ball in contested situations more than he leads out to present. I know we'd all hope that Jack Watts' body is more developed by that stage of his career (age 21-22).

The real 'elite' forwards have the ability to do both; lead hard and repeatedly, AND use their body strength in one-on-one situations: Riewoldt, Richo, Fev, Lloyd, J Brown, Buddy, Roughead etc. The 'good' forwards generally can do one of the two really well, and the other at least adequately.

Newton is barely adequate in both areas. Add to that his erratic kicking, and the lack of opportunity he's been given at the top level suddenly looks a lot more justified.

Unfortunately for Juice, unless he can put some serious muscle on in the next pre-season, or can gain an extra yard in pace and a bigger engine, he's always going to be too limited a player to succeed at AFL level, IMO. Everyone wants a 194cm key forward who jumps on the head of packs and takes huge screamers. But what good is that if he can't lead well, isn't strong or fast, and is about as reliable a shot for goal as Richo on a bad day? Not much if you ask me.

Newton--> a classic case of 'good @VFL, wanting @AFL'.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Doggo

[beelzebub 22,243]

Doggo..when you spell it out like that you make a compelling case. I think you may well be right.. the icing and cherry without the cake..well, without any substantial cake. Maybe the substance can indeed be found in the gym with resulting improvements in the body on body duelling etc. Good summation

[Dannyz 2,332]

Newton - Has gotta go. Few moments of magic, Thanks I enjoyed those but see you later.

Bell - Has never came on. Average player with average skills.

Dunn - Should be played up forward for the rest of 09. Could and should make an impact.

Johnson - Got some positives including mobility. Keep as backup ruckman.

Buckley - Showed some real positives signs. Has some very natural attributes and will be an important part of the side going forward.

Zomer - At times has a poor attitude, but when he's on I like the look of him. Just a shame he wont ever make it.

Wheatley - Will be useful for a year yet. An old head needed amoung a team of youth's.

Valenti - Showed some good signs last year. At this stage a good midfield back-up, cant see him making it past the end of season delistings though.